Is Ford losing in sales?

barbarian · 30-03-2008, 02:26 PM

I think not.

February sales were as follows -

Territory: 1300
Falcon: 2600

Total: 3900

Holden -

Commodore: 4300

Since the territory is derivation of a Falcon, we can consider this beaut SUV as a Falcon.. with only 400 sales difference, so in turn, i don't seem understand what the media exaggeration on Ford Aus sales loss is about? When the BA/BF combined with Territory was at its sales peak, Ford Aus was undoubtedly profiteering more than Holden could dream of.. I believe this trend will return once FG sales kick in.

Kryton · 30-03-2008, 02:27 PM

and what exactly has this got to do with the FG?
this is the FG 'Orion' Knowledge Hub after all.

barbarian · 30-03-2008, 02:29 PM

Sorry mr. mod, feel free to move it where it belongs

Smoke Pursuit · 30-03-2008, 03:12 PM

Sales are quiet due to people waiting for the new Model. not to mention the fact that theres very LITTLE stock left in BFII guise, unless ofcourse you want an XT or XL ute... Not many XR's left.

Id say June will see Ford up around the 4000 mark with the Falcon again... or close to it neways providing they can get the right cars in stock.

Windsor220 · 30-03-2008, 03:21 PM

You cant class Territory as a Falcon even though it is based on a Falcon.

You then have to class Captiva as a Commodore.

Paxton · 30-03-2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torxteer

You cant class Territory as a Falcon even though it is based on a Falcon.

You then have to class Captiva as a Commodore.

Why? The only thing a Craptiva has similar to a Commodore is the engine, and the Craptiva's is a 3.2, not a 3.6.

Falcon and Falcon Ute could be combined, however. If you want to compare the Factories, look at Locally produced. When we get Focus, Locally produced will be far over and above Holdens.

Windsor220 · 30-03-2008, 04:07 PM

The thread says is Ford losing in sales. Well yes they are as Holden, as a whole, outsells them.

If you want to talk about the local cars built in the lineups then yes Ford isnt far off. But dont add Territory to Falcon sales when comparing to Commodore as its in a completely different class.

Ford Aus doesnt just sell local built cars. Neither does Holden.

vztrt · 30-03-2008, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torxteer

The thread says is Ford losing in sales. Well yes they are as Holden, as a whole, outsells them.

If you want to talk about the local cars built in the lineups then yes Ford isnt far off. But dont add Territory to Falcon sales when comparing to Commodore as its in a completely different class.

Ford Aus doesnt just sell local built cars. Neither does Holden.

In terms of locally built Ford has been (not sure about this year) selling more locally built cars then Holden has.

As for export I'd love to know the margin they make because I'd be surprised if they were large profits per unit with the way our dollar is.

AU-MUSTD · 30-03-2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton

Why? The only thing a Craptiva has similar to a Commodore is the engine, and the Craptiva's is a 3.2, not a 3.6.

Falcon and Falcon Ute could be combined, however. If you want to compare the Factories, look at Locally produced. When we get Focus, Locally produced will be far over and above Holdens.

Dont think focus and falcon will be far over holdens locally built for export and sale here. Holden sell a ship load of commodores for export that dont get added to monthly commo sales.( anyone know exact figures of this????) To say the territory has similarity's to the falcon and therefore should be added to falcon sales

:

Conrad · 31-03-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torxteer

You cant class Territory as a Falcon even though it is based on a Falcon.

You then have to class Captiva as a Commodore.

umm captiva isn't based on a commodore.. so no, you are completely wrong

**TUF_302** · 31-03-2008, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conrad

umm captiva isn't based on a commodore.. so no, you are completely wrong

Agreed!

Windsor220 · 31-03-2008, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conrad

umm captiva isn't based on a commodore.. so no, you are completely wrong

That wasnt the point I was trying to make. Doesnt really matter now.

GS608 · 30-03-2008, 03:53 PM

But Captiva is nothing like the Commydore, its not built here, doesnt share any parts with the commy and in no way looks like one..

The Terry has strong styling cues that link it to the BA, it was pretty much a chunky wagon with AWD, even shares the same engines.

Eaturbo · 30-03-2008, 04:04 PM

Dont forget that this is only local numbers and does not account for holdens large export numbers. This will see half of there production exported

Ghiadude · 30-03-2008, 05:14 PM

You can skew the numbers any way you want to make any point you want. Ford is still selling cars that are locally built and doesnt look like stopping. Territory is a good example of the smart way of doing things - value adding to the development costs of falcon and producing a car that people want. Territory has now been selling roughly 1500 per month since 2004 without so much as an upgrade in a market segment that used to be owned by toyota nuf sed

jweb · 30-03-2008, 07:54 PM

It is ridiculous to class to totally different vehicles as the same,The territory can and will never be classed as just a offroad falcon.
Do not worry about sales in general.You need to look at the sales of the model for the month in comparison to YTD.Fords market share,has been up and down,and at the moment is just below 10%,at about 9.6.Focus sales are up,Falcon sales are down-for obvious reasons.
You asked a rhetorical question as you answered you'r own question,in forum based discussion's this is useless.

uranium_death · 30-03-2008, 11:42 PM

Holden Commodores almost always sell better than Falcons...I don't care about that.

What I do care about is despite Ford's Australian-built vehicles still selling pretty well, the media spits out diarrhoea like "Ford Australia Future in Doubt" or something to that effect.

The average Joe or Jane poos their undies/knickers and says, "With such doubt over this company's future in Australia, I don't want to spend money buying this car, only to have the company cease manufacturing operations in Australia, thereby possible increasing costs for repairs/servicing. I think I'll go with a Toyota or Holden instead."

The media need to support Australian industry (in this case, Ford Australia), rather than splash red paint all over it.
Ford is doing ok...sure, the Falcon isn't selling as well as hoped, but it's still a good car, and the FG will be even better.

I'm also sick to death of people saying, "The FG looks the same as the BA-BFII".

Funny...I've always thought the VE looks like the VZ...I tend to liken it to a pig on steroids.

The new Falcon's power may not be in its physical difference from the BFII...it will be the handling, quality of ride, interior quality and other things that can't be judged by opening a door and taking a look.
To judge the quality of interior, you need to drive the car and see how much it rattles, and how quickly the vinyl deteriorates, among other things.

Holden has a shithouse interior setup with it's impeding A-pillar, but of course, people don't tend to hear about that.

PALE ALE · 31-03-2008, 12:24 AM

If Ford's market share is only 10%,it's only a matter of time 'til they pull the plug on aus manufacturing.I use to work at mitsubishi's lonsdale plant, in 1996, I can remember my supervisor giving us the year to date market share. Mitsubishi had 12% of the local market, Ford/holden had about 20% each(from memory) Toyota had about 8% aus manufactured car's and the rest of there market share made up of import model's. The rest of the market was import's. Then I reckon it was about year 2000, supervisor inform's us that import's have out sold local manufactured car's for the first time ever. We knew it was only a matter of time 'til mitsubishi shut up shop. So when I see that Ford is closing it's Geelong plant (Lonsdale was the mitsubishi engine plant,that was closed first) and only has 10% of the market, it does'nt look good for ford Aus

Paxton · 31-03-2008, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PALE ALE

If Ford's market share is only 10%,it's only a matter of time 'til they pull the plug on aus manufacturing.I use to work at mitsubishi's lonsdale plant, in 1996, I can remember my supervisor giving us the year to date market share. Mitsubishi had 12% of the local market, Ford/holden had about 20% each(from memory) Toyota had about 8% aus manufactured car's and the rest of there market share made up of import model's. The rest of the market was import's. Then I reckon it was about year 2000, supervisor inform's us that import's have out sold local manufactured car's for the first time ever. We knew it was only a matter of time 'til mitsubishi shut up shop. So when I see that Ford is closing it's Geelong plant (Lonsdale was the mitsubishi engine plant,that was closed first) and only has 10% of the market, it does'nt look good for ford Aus

It looks a lot better for Ford now than it did when MMAL shut their engine plant with the demise of Magna. MMAL had a market share that was falling very quickly, neither them, nor their parent was making money, and Magna (and 380) were failing in the market, with no recovery in sight. Ford on the other hand are working flat out with FG, Territory, BFIII, and very shortly Focus (and Kuga). Ford have a better outlook than MMAL ever had. FoA also have support from Head Office (hence Focus), which MMAL never received, which contributed to their closing. Ford are in a better shape now than they have been in recent years.

vztrt - I have been thinking the same thing. Holden were making bucketloads of cash when the dollar was ~75¢US, however today, with near parity, Holden can still sell an SS for ~35,000 US. Either they are cooking the books, Australia pays too much for their cars, or Holden is selling their exports at a loss. GM is notorious for flooding the order books to keep a factory going, but this often doesn't turn into a real profit.

Wally · 31-03-2008, 11:09 AM

I'd be suprised if GMH declare a profit for 07/08. They will still be writing down the development cost of the VE.

2006 - $146 million loss
2005 - $144 million loss
2004 - $300.8 million profit
2003 - $285.6 million profit
2002 - $256.5 million profit

And don't forget that Ford Oz paid Ford Detroit a $300M dividend (gift) in 2005 to prop up the poor performing US operations and posted a $148M EBIT.

As far as VE cost in US and elsewhere, well corporations all over will transfer product inhouse at factory cost to minimise local taxation, import duties, tarrifs, etc.

PALE ALE · 31-03-2008, 11:31 AM

Yes, mitsubishi as a whole was making a loss, but FoMoCo is too

Paxton · 31-03-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PALE ALE

Yes, mitsubishi as a whole was making a loss, but FoMoCo is too

Yes, but the local operations (MMAL) haven't been profitable since TL replace TJ. That was the stage that Magna sales took a nosedive. Ford on the other hand knows how to be tight with money, and has, through nobody else's fault managed to stay roughly profitable, even with lower sales, a poorly performing parent.

This comparison might help explain a couple of things; including how the exchange rate is effecting Holden's Billion Dollar Baby, and also how much Territory is helping Ford's bottom line.

After Tax Profits 1996 to Present
......Ford...(Holden)
1996..217.3..(243.0)
1997..179.5..(172.0)
1998...58.0..(166.0)
1999...82.3..(135.0)
2000..Loss - 16.1..(237.0)
2001..Loss - 5.5..(285.0)
2002...20.4..(252.0)
2003..154.6..(286.0)
2004..185.6..(216.6)
2005..148.2..(Loss - 145.0)
2006..Loss - 40.3..(Loss - 147.0)
2007 - to be announced

Ford have managed to keep a tidy profit, or a small loss (not the 140 Million plus that Holden record). It also shows how close to collapse AU took Ford (not knocking the car, stating facts).

As long as the parent company has faith in the subsidiaries, there is just cause for keeping it operational. MMC didn't have much faith in MMAL, otherwise they would have been offered another product to build locally. Lancer would have allowed them to stay open easily.

duncanwhite · 31-03-2008, 11:51 AM

If I'm not mistaken Ford Au were ceasing the Falcon wagon. This would mean the RWD Territory would replace the wagon and could be in the same class.
Otherwise the Territory dose answer the question: Is Ford losing in Sales?

LeadFoot81 · 31-03-2008, 12:23 PM

Ford sells just as many locally built cars in Australia as Holden, if not more.
The three big questions are:
Are Fords sales enough to keep the local products alive?
Are Holdens exports of local product worthwhile (re:exchange rate) and if not are Holdens local sales enough to keep their local products alive?
Theres alot of red ink in the Holden margin there for the last two years, thats a little alarming!

irlewy86 · 31-03-2008, 12:32 PM

MMAL would probably still be around if they re tooled for the Lancer.

Holden domestically is outselling Ford. But I reckon by 2010 the Factory should be up to capacity, and FPV will have a full order book for F6's. Holden might still hold the mantle but one of the 2 is going to have to pull something special out of the hat to stop people from buying imports (fingers crossed its the focus)

Paxton · 31-03-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irlewy86

MMAL would probably still be around if they re tooled for the Lancer.

Holden domestically is outselling Ford. But I reckon by 2010 the Factory should be up to capacity, and FPV will have a full order book for F6's. Holden might still hold the mantle but one of the 2 is going to have to pull something special out of the hat to stop people from buying imports (fingers crossed its the focus)

What do you mean fingers crossed. Focus is a done deal, it is happening come 2011. It isn't a CKD, it is going to be built here, in Broadmeadows. Geelong will stamp it, and Broadmeadows will assemble it. Holden might (and I say might, not will) get Torana. Broadmeadows will be going flat chat come 2012.

Wally · 31-03-2008, 03:20 PM

Now that would be nice, a mid sized rear wheel drive.

Bossxr8 · 31-03-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton

What do you mean fingers crossed. Focus is a done deal, it is happening come 2011. It isn't a CKD, it is going to be built here, in Broadmeadows. Geelong will stamp it, and Broadmeadows will assemble it. Holden might (and I say might, not will) get Torana. Broadmeadows will be going flat chat come 2012.

When they send utes to America they will be at full capacity, how will they find any room to make decent numbers of Torana's. Ain't going to happen, especially now since GM revealed their plans to built them in the US and Canada.

Paxton · 31-03-2008, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

When they send utes to America they will be at full capacity, how will they find any room to make decent numbers of Torana's. Ain't going to happen, especially now since GM revealed their plans to built them in the US and Canada.

Bugger. Forgot about the utes. This rumour was floating around ~18 months ago, when the first of the Zeta spinoffs (Alpha) were coming to surface.

Fev · 31-03-2008, 05:24 PM

and whats the problem going on here?!!

LACK OF ADVERTISING!!! LACK OF VEHICLE DIVERSITY!!! WHY WONT FORD AUS LISTEN TO US!!!

they should build a mid size coupe/convertible.. something to match the saab's and such, i'd definately buy one if i could afford it.. i think australia is screaming for a good I6/V8 coupe/hardtop/soft top and the only ones around are beemers, saabs and vectra's.. thats about it.. nothing else stands out to me(AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM! FORD DONT STAND OUT ANYMORE!)