Wheels Jan 2010 - F6E v Senator Signature v Merc

b2tf · 11-12-2009, 10:34 PM

Just got the January issue and in it they have a rather good writeup - interestingly though they favour the HSV over the F6E and the Merc beats them both. Has anybody else seen it?

The issue also has a great writeup on the best V8's over the past few years.

1TUFFUTE · 11-12-2009, 11:06 PM

wow thats interesting i mite have a read ..any more you can enlighten us with...who was quickest...cheapest...the most important things..ha

**DJM83** · 12-12-2009, 10:03 AM

Might have to get it for the V8 article

FPV8U · 12-12-2009, 10:03 AM

Merc C63?

b2tf · 12-12-2009, 04:32 PM

E63 AMG is the Merc model included in the test.

I had a bit more time this arvo to read it and had to quote this bit of the article:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wheels Jan 2010 Article

This is the comparison HSV doesn't want you to read. Actually that's not true. This is the comparison HSV doesn't think is relevant.
"FPV is not a rival for HSV" HSV Managing Director Phil Harding told Wheels.
Whoa! Sorry?
After two false starts because HSV pulled its car at the 11th hour, we finally managed to drive the E2 Series Senator Signature back-to-back with FPV's F6E. And, as a performance yardstick, we took along Mercedes-Benz's impressive E63 AMG.
We'll get to the comparison in a moment. But first, why did HSV decide that another Red v Blue rumble was one too many? To find out, we sat down with Harding in his office at HSV HQ in the industrial suburb of Clayton, outside Melbourne. What we invisaged as a 15 minute discussion lasted an hour, and for almost two thirds of that time Harding requested that the voice recorder be turned off. While it was on, we asked him why he didn't want this comparison to happen.
Harding takes his time pondering the question. Moments seem like minutes before his gaze returns and he replies with a question of his own.
"Why does Wheels want to do this comparison?"
Well, because we see HSV and FPV as natural rivals, we tell him. We see these brands as the pinnacle of Australian sports sedans, producing broadly similar machines. We believe there's kudos for being the best.
Harding replies:"only two percent of our customers trade in Ford products, and none of those from the brand Wheels claims is our big rival. Anecdotally, we get people trading in Porsche Boxsters, Volvos, BMW's, Audis, the lot. I've only had one dealer tell me of someone trading in and FPV for a HSV. So, based on that, what is HSV's competition? I put it to you that there's a difference between what we see as our competition and what wheels sees as a benchmark."
Here then, is the crux of the issue. Is Wheels comparing consumer rivals or spiritual rivals?
"I don't see FPV as a competitor" says Harding.
What about a spiritual rival, then?
"I dont have a rivalry".
Oh. Kay. Do you think your heartland sees a rivalry? Is it important to them that your vehicles are better than those from Broadmeadows?
"That's a fair question" says Harding. And that's what we're here to answer, having finally convinced HSV to loan us a car.

An interesting position from HSV based on the above info.

Article is quite good, scores as follows:

FPV F6E:

7/10
Good: Ballistic Engine Rush, Sublime Auto, luxurious interior feel
Bad: Turbo Lag, too-soft ride, lazy rear end

HSV Senator Signature:

8/10
Good: Throttle Response, bellowing engine note, handling, chassis balance
Bad: Interior under-sells the luxury, grumpy gearbox

AMG E63:

9/10
Good: Ferocious;fast;focused;refined - what's not to love?
Bad: Erm... the road noise; slow manual mode, the price

For those interested, 1/4 times:

F6E: 13.78
HSV: 13.63
AMG: 13.25

phillyc · 12-12-2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HSV Managing Director Phil Harding

"FPV is not a rival for HSV" told Wheels.

So, if that is the case. Then i might just wade into the V8 vs i6T debate. With a different spin on it.

Current logic assumes that all FPV & HSV sales are competing.

V8
3000 for HSV
1300 for FPV

i6T
700 for FPV

Based off those numbers, 4300 of 5000 sales are for V8's. 700 for I6T's. That would suggest a split of 86% v8 and 14% i6T.

If the two brands aren't competing (yeah right), then the real split (where the option is available. ie FPV only) gives a more accurate indication of where the market is heading. That says 35% of sales are for the i6T.

phillyc · 12-12-2009, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wheels Mag

After two false starts because HSV pulled its car at the 11th hour, we finally managed to drive the E2

They must've kept forgetting to put the special tune in the ECU. They even forgot to do it this time?!

bangm001 · 12-12-2009, 04:43 PM

FG F6 and turbo lag... BAHAHAHAHAA!!! Nuf said.

**Bluehoon** · 12-12-2009, 04:58 PM

What a load of drivel.. Sorry but if that's a segment of the add i consider the choice in not buying wheels money well saved.

RIPGMH · 12-12-2009, 04:51 PM

Who's Nanna is launching these things?

flappist · 12-12-2009, 04:56 PM

No one trades FPVs on HSVs?

I wonder how many trade HSVs on FPVs.......

4Vman · 12-12-2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

No one trades FPVs on HSVs?

I wonder how many trade HSVs on FPVs.......

Not many id suspect.. i think Harding has made an interesting point...

Falc'man · 12-12-2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

No one trades FPVs on HSVs?

I wonder how many trade HSVs on FPVs.......

He left himself wide open, didn't he.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Are HSV and FPV REALLY competitors?

I guess it depends on how strongly you believe in brand tribalism and brand loyalty......

I often think they're more competitors in school yards and pubs than in the marketplace..

How do you define "competitor"?

1TUFFUTE · 12-12-2009, 08:42 PM

my direct answer to his statement that all his trade ins recently have been euro performance cars is that people r obviously cutting down on spending the big bucks for there new car upgrade, esspescially in the allmost rescesion we had. hence they go for the cheaper aussie models.

phillyc · 12-12-2009, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

No one trades FPVs on HSVs?

I wonder how many trade HSVs on FPVs.......

What he said could easily be construed as a win for FPV. When people buy and experience an FPV they don't want to trade down on their next car by buying an HSV.

The HSV boss has essentially said that we conquest less than 2% of our sales from FPV. Based on 3000 sales pa. That is just 60 odd cars...

Like you've said flappist, wonder what the conquest rate is for FPV from HSV?

mcnews · 13-12-2009, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

What he said could easily be construed as a win for FPV. When people buy and experience an FPV they don't want to trade down on their next car by buying an HSV.

That is laughable really, some people think like that, I personally couldn't give a toss what badge it has, I will buy the best product available across the two on the day I choose to buy my next car. That is why 3.5 years ago I ended up in a BF F6, not because it was an FPV. If I wanted to buy a V8 now it would be a HSV, as after driving a 315 GT this week in all real world driving situations it still has nowhere near as much mid-range as my BF F6, let alone the FG F6. I wanted to buy an 8 this time, but I just couldn't live with the weak delivery below 4000rpm that the current Ford offering still suffers with (fantastic above 4k though), thus if/when I decide to put the money down it will again be F6 or HSV. It will purely come down to which one floats my boat next time I drive them and who offers the best deal.

So I guess all my comments there shoot big holes through what that bloke from HSV was saying in his comments in that article doesn't it....

Cabbage · 13-12-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

That is laughable really, some people think like that, I personally couldn't give a toss what badge it has, I will buy the best product available across the two on the day I choose to buy my next car. That is why 3.5 years ago I ended up in a BF F6, not because it was an FPV. If I wanted to buy a V8 now it would be a HSV, as after driving a 315 GT this week in all real world driving situations it still has nowhere near as much mid-range as my BF F6, let alone the FG F6. I wanted to buy an 8 this time, but I just couldn't live with the weak delivery below 4000rpm that the current Ford offering still suffers with (fantastic above 4k though), thus if/when I decide to put the money down it will again be F6 or HSV. It will purely come down to which one floats my boat next time I drive them and who offers the best deal.

So I guess all my comments there shoot big holes through what that bloke from HSV was saying in his comments in that article doesn't it....

There are those that will only drive Ford or Holden, FPV or HSV, but as mcnews shows, there are a large number of people who will simply buy the best HSV or FPV that suits their needs at the time. Harding is being a bit cute. If you're looking for a high performance large sedan around the $50,000 - 90,000, you can buy a base model Euro or a highly optioned high performance FPV or HSV. For this vehicle type and this price range there really are only two natrural competitiors within Australia, FPV and HSV.

Perhaps Harding doesn't want HSV comparing itself to FPV because it has little or no advantage over FPV. When HSV compares itself against the big Euro's it can always compete on price, size and options available at that price. However I think Harding's reluctance is more to do with positioning HSV as a prestige brand with other more expensive makes.

4Vman · 12-12-2009, 05:04 PM

Some predictable results, and VERY interesting observations about brand switching...
If what he says is true then we worry too much about what HSV release...

As for 1/4 times well all those sub 13 times you hear about are at drag strips with optimized conditions, super sticky tracks and light loads, these times are more representative of how they'd perform on the street where 99% of people drive these cars.

Romulus · 12-12-2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Some predictable results, and VERY interesting observations about brand switching...
If what he says is true then we worry too much about what HSV release...

And more to the point, FPV customer's are astute enough not to cross the floor and buy the HSV product. Phil Harding should be concerned about the lack of interest in his product, rather than seeing it as an endorsement of HSV's product. Many peope step out of the European performance vehicles, poor resale being one of them.

FPV and HSV are natural rivals. To deny so is ignorant. Typical bogan mentality.

Deco28 · 12-12-2009, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVS Super Pursuit

And more to the point, FPV customer's are astute enough not to cross the floor and buy the HSV product. Phil Harding should be concerned about the lack of interest in his product, rather than seeing it as an endorsement of HSV's product. Many peope step out of the European performance vehicles, poor resale being one of them.

FPV and HSV are natural rivals. To deny so is ignorant. Typical bogan mentality.

Though the GTS waiting list is out to april, there is no demand. Shame that.

Should add, MOST GTS's ordered also had the bigger brakes.

snappy · 12-12-2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deco28

Though the GTS waiting list is out to april, there is no demand. Shame that.

Should add, MOST GTS's ordered also had the bigger brakes.

Fair comment but pointless , There could be number of reasons how many can the build a day there maybe supply issues expecially if the all want bigger brakes .

I know it sounds good for hsv . But its possible the reality of it is not.

Now go back to ls1 forum deco and find out for us

phillyc · 12-12-2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deco28

Though the GTS waiting list is out to april, there is no demand. Shame that.

Should add, MOST GTS's ordered also had the bigger brakes.

Look, thought you were fair dinkum. But now, not so sure about your posts. Seem to be ignorant of the actual situation.

I myself just perused LS1 and had a look at their forum. They have a thread going about how they aren't seeing many new E2? cars on the roads. Only in dealer lots!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by gasguz@LS1

Noticed Watson Holden had 14 E2's for immediate delivery in todays Herald Sun, if any one was looking to find one...
6 E2 R8 Clubsports
2 E2 GTS
2 E2 Tourer R8's
2 E2 Senator Sigs
2 E2 Grange

Kevin Dennis in Sunshine also has 12 E2's for immediate delivery, 6 of them manuals, some have leather, sunroof & satnav. 2 of the GTS's have premium brakes.

That is 26 brand spankers HSV cars sitting there in 2 dealers.

I didnt say people were not buying them, there are a few but they are not buying them in the numbers of the past. I still have only seen about 3 of them on the road. Maybe its the dealers who have bought all of the stock expecting to be able to clear them a bit quicker than they have.

WASP · 12-12-2009, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

I myself just perused LS1 and had a look at their forum. They have a thread going about how they aren't seeing many new E2? cars on the roads. Only in dealer lots!!!

http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new...s_waiting_list

kezzer · 12-12-2009, 05:07 PM

Have to agree, AMG being the best choice, but for the money would much rather a HSV or FPV.

Then comparing the HSV to the F6, give me a V8 anyday.

Really cannot wait for ford to get back into the 8 game, its always the HSV 8 vs the FPV 6 :(
whens the coyote coming out??

**DJM83** · 12-12-2009, 05:28 PM

If i were in the market i dont think id consider the F6E or Senator. I wonder if they will compare the later with the GTE?
Phil Harding is kidding himself if he doesnt think that FPV is competitor to HSV sure there is other options out there but i and other will also agree that HSV and FPV are natural rivals/competitors. The E63 IMO is way out of the league of both (almost certainly used as a yardstick IMO) cars i think mainly due to price, but the performance when compared to the price isnt to bad when comparing the HSV/FPV's to the AMG

b2tf · 12-12-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

If i were in the market i dont think id consider the F6E or Senator. I wonder if they will compare the later with the GTE?
Phil Harding is kidding himself if he doesnt think that FPV is competitor to HSV sure there is other options out there but i and other will also agree that HSV and FPV are natural rivals/competitors. The E63 IMO is way out of the league of both (almost certainly used as a yardstick IMO) cars i think mainly due to price, but the performance when compared to the price isnt to bad when comparing the HSV/FPV's to the AMG

The E63 was used as the Yardstick - they do state that in the article. I think it's a bit far fetched to compare 'domestic' models with the likes of an AMG however based on what Phil Harding said I can see why they would do it.

I think just about anybody know has ever heard of FPV/HSV would immediately agree with them being 'rivals' and its been this way long before Harding occupied a seat at HSV.

The F6E is a really nice looking car but out of the three based purely on aesthetics I would pick the Merc, based on performance I would pick the Merc (I am a V8 man) however based on price I would probably pick the F6E.

gtfpv · 12-12-2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

If i were in the market i dont think id consider the F6E or Senator. I wonder if they will compare the later with the GTE?
Phil Harding is kidding himself if he doesnt think that FPV is competitor to HSV sure there is other options out there but i and other will also agree that HSV and FPV are natural rivals/competitors. The E63 IMO is way out of the league of both (almost certainly used as a yardstick IMO) cars i think mainly due to price, but the performance when compared to the price isnt to bad when comparing the HSV/FPV's to the AMG

i dont know mate . i like to think HSV/FPV HOLDEN/FORD A RE RIVALRIES , however , i have only ever owned and driven fords. my sister and her husband only holdens, when i bought the GT never looked compared or considered a clubsport , even though i'd regard that as its natural rival.
my sister just bought a 2008 commadore from hertz, there were xr6's there too none of them got even sat in , only the commadores . my father said to me when he helped them pickup the commadore, hey theres a nice 2008 XR6 down there , why dont you go and grab it !!!!! FOOD for thought .
HARDING , might just be right .

**Polyal** · 12-12-2009, 05:30 PM

Phoar fair stretch comparing them even though the 1/4 times are close. The AMG once on road would be double the price no?

Can you get a proper manual with the AMG?

And whats with the turbo lag comment, I thought the I6T came on pretty early.

Its like comparing a 350Z to a GTR. Yeah ok they are both sports cars in the same category but they are worlds apart.

The G6ET Spot · 12-12-2009, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

The AMG once on road would be double the price no?

No!! Try FROM $234,000 plus on roads

Cobra · 13-12-2009, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAPID XR8

No!! Try FROM $234,000 plus on roads

Nearly 4 times as much hey! Probably 3 and a half times. Nice car, but for nearly quarter of a million...