Ethenol fuel the con.

[Hardtopxb]

I had a discussion with a mate the other day about the benefits of Ethanol fuel. He thought it was good I didn't. So I did a bit of quick research... Cars,Cows and people produce Carbon Dioxide and Methane. Methane is eventualy oxidised the atmosphere to produce carbon dioxide. In cars every atom of carbon in the ethanol burned produces one molecule of carbon dioxide. Over the life of a cow running corn / grain or a car running on ethanol,they both produce the same carbon emissions from the same plant input. Ethanol ties up heaps of good cropping land, uses a lot of fuel to harvest,plant and transport the grain then lots more energy to ferment,distil and distribute, then more energy is used to make,transport and apply fertiliser . So through this stupidity, ethanol production consumes more energy than it produces. It is a inferior motor fuel it produces lowerKm/Litre and can also damage some engines. Ethanol is subsidised, it increases the tax burden,pushes up prices of grain,beef,pork,eggs,milk and cereal. We pay for tax breakes for the construction of ethanol plants etc. And last if not least it harms the hungry of the world. What do you think?

[trbo 6]

Ethanol is made from the waste products of the processing of sugar canes into starch and other products. It has a lower CO2 output per litre than unleaded, it has a higher octane rating which means you can run more timing and produce more power than unleaded and I have no idea how you would think it pushes prices up ofgrain, beef, pork etc. as it is a Bi product of a process that is already taking place.

I suggest you keep researching.

[Hardtopxb]

Mate Ethanol is not only made from sugar cane. Suggest you do more research.

[trbo 6]

In Australia it's made from sugar cane.

[Tickford Rebel]

Originally Posted by trbo 6

In Australia it's made from sugar cane.

Shhhh don't tell anyone but I work for a Very large company that manufactures Malt for Beer... We export world wide and sell to Australian Brewers... We germinate Barley and then roast it into Malt. The bi product ( or Colmings ) gets used to produce none other than ETHENOL!!! But yeah its a secret for some reason

[Nikked]

Brazil has been using it for years...

Ethanol is not a con, its is one of the few (besides vege oil re-use) successful, reliable and cheap alternatives to non-renewable fossil fuels that work on internal combustion engines.

If you have a better suggestion , i'd like to hear it.

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Brazil has been using it for years...

Ethanol is not a con, its is one of the few successful, reliable and cheap alternatives to non-renewable fossil fuels that work on internal combustion engines.

If you have a better suggestion , i'd like to hear it.

But once the rain forests are replaced with ethanol crops we will have no air to breath. It's not a long term solution just yet I don't think.

I believe hydrogen will be the future.

[cupic]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Brazil has been using it for years...

Ethanol is not a con, its is one of the few (besides vege oil re-use) successful, reliable and cheap alternatives to non-renewable fossil fuels that work on internal combustion engines.

If you have a better suggestion , i'd like to hear it.

If ethanol is so great the price reduction should reflect the excess fuel economy it gives ,not just the 2c price difference

[Maka]

http://www.choice.com.au/reviews-and...-biofuels.aspx

http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2010...-ethanol-20281

Reduced mileage is the reason i wont go near it but if mileage wasnt a issue & my car was tuned/built for it then the increased hp would sway me.

cheers, Maka

[ratter]

there are pro's and con's same as most things in life

[superpursuit83]

Mileage V Price per litre is not a lot more than 98 pulp.

With an average increase of power over 50hp and cooler running engine and a more responsive throttle and the sweet exhaust smell I would run it all the time if it was on pump in Perth.

[mik]

I've only used the e10 stuff , the motor pinged like a ***** on the stuff, wont use it again, correct me if I'm wrong the stuff is also hydroscopic/absorbs water and is corrosive.

[cheap]

If ethanol fuel is truly more 'powerful' then why is it listed with less BTU's than non-ethanol petrol?

Hint: it ain't more powerful and hence your mileage will suffer , yet another green waste your money scheme

[MR SOFTY]

Originally Posted by mik

I've only used the e10 stuff , the motor pinged like a ***** on the stuff, wont use it again, correct me if I'm wrong the stuff is also hydroscopic/absorbs water and is corrosive.

Yep your right mate!! I wouldn;t put this **** in my lawn mower
I know for a fact that 2 stroke 200hp merucry outboard motors wont run on it more so wont even start and its a known
fact now to stay away from it for boats !

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by mik

I've only used the e10 stuff , the motor pinged like a ***** on the stuff, wont use it again, correct me if I'm wrong the stuff is also hydroscopic/absorbs water and is corrosive.

The corrosiveness only comes to art on some components due to the presence of too much water. But where does the water come from...it shouldn't be in your tank, but from poorly maintained underground tanks and transport vehicles, that would induce water into your tanks anyway.

There is a lot of talk about rubber being corroded, however, there is no rubber in most cars fuel systems theses days, this is because of the chemicals that are present in modern un-leaded fuels, that ate through rubber lines.

Ethanol's problems lay in the fact that it "cleans" fuels systems, so any crap that already exists in your tank/filer/lines is carried though to your engine.

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

But once the rain forests are replaced with ethanol crops we will have no air to breath. It's not a long term solution just yet I don't think.

I believe hydrogen will be the future.

Hence why ethanol can be (and is) produced from the waste matter of sugar/corn (or any waste plant material) production. This helps reduce the food or fuel effect (and any forest cleaning)

I too hope for Hydrogen fuel in internal combustion engines, but it think we are still a far way from seeing the common use of it as a fuel.

[ratter]

there is moisture in the air.
E85 does not clean, it has corrosive properties and can appear to be cleaning built up gunk in the fuel system, it can corrode different types of metals, plastics and rubbers and modern cars still have all these in their fuel systems.
E85 can make more power if tuned for it

[cheap]

Originally Posted by ratter

E85 can make more power if tuned for it

Pray tell how can e10/e85/e100 possibly make more power than conventional gasoline?

Here is the BTU for the various blends.

Fuel BTU/unit (all in US gallons)
Gasoline (base) 114,000 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E100) 76,100 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E85) 81,800 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E10) 111,836 BTU/gal

Other fuel types:

Diesel 129,500 BTU/gal
Biodiesel (B100) 118,300 BTU/gal
Biodiesel (B20) 127,250 BTU/gal
Liquid natural gas (LNG) 75,000 BTU/gal

In general terms the more BTU's per fuel type then the more bang per drop and the better mileage, hence why diesel gets better mileage and why LNG needs roughly twice the gallons as regular gasoline to go the same distance.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by cheap

Pray tell how can e10/e85/e100 possibly make more power than conventional gasoline?

Here is the BTU for the various blends.

Fuel BTU/unit (all in US gallons)
Gasoline (base) 114,000 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E100) 76,100 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E85) 81,800 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E10) 111,836 BTU/gal

Other fuel types:

Diesel 129,500 BTU/gal
Biodiesel (B100) 118,300 BTU/gal
Biodiesel (B20) 127,250 BTU/gal
Liquid natural gas (LNG) 75,000 BTU/gal

In general terms the more BTU's per fuel type then the more bang per drop and the better mileage, hence why diesel gets better mileage and why LNG needs roughly twice the gallons as regular gasoline to go the same distance.

so diesel is the most powerful fuel, not nitro methane?
economy comes from higher BTU, but power comes from oxygenated fuels.

E85 108~112 ron
verses PULP 98 ron

[trbo 6]

Originally Posted by cheap

Pray tell how can e10/e85/e100 possibly make more power than conventional gasoline?

Here is the BTU for the various blends.

Fuel BTU/unit (all in US gallons)
Gasoline (base) 114,000 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E100) 76,100 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E85) 81,800 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E10) 111,836 BTU/gal

Other fuel types:

Diesel 129,500 BTU/gal
Biodiesel (B100) 118,300 BTU/gal
Biodiesel (B20) 127,250 BTU/gal
Liquid natural gas (LNG) 75,000 BTU/gal

In general terms the more BTU's per fuel type then the more bang per drop and the better mileage, hence why diesel gets better mileage and why LNG needs roughly twice the gallons as regular gasoline to go the same distance.

Gas has an energy density of 46MJ/kg, e85 has 33MJ/kg, so at stoich ratio’s of each fuel the energy output not taking into account VE or BSFC is:

For Gas = 46MJ/kg / 14.7 (stoich) = 3.13MJ/kg of air fuel mixture
For E85 = 33MJ/kg / 9.77 (stoich) = 3.38MJ/kg of air fuel mixture

[2011G6E]

Energy negative, massively taxpayer subsidised fuel additives are never the answer...and those who think mandating an ethanol level in all fuel and doing away with "normal" unleaded will be in for a nasty shock when the government drops the subsidy once everyone has no choice but to use it...as they did with LP Gas...

[burnz]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

image

Energy negative, massively taxpayer subsidised fuel additives are never the answer...and those who think mandating an ethanol level in all fuel and doing away with "normal" unleaded will be in for a nasty shock when the government drops the subsidy once everyone has no choice but to use it...as they did with LP Gas...

have you worked out how much energy it take's to get oil out of the ground?

[xtremerus]

Ethanol CAN be made from waste products, but is not ONLY made from it.
Do more researching.

[T4ME]

More octane more timing allowed so more torque/power with ethanol fuels.
I went from 98 to 100 octane e10 and it used the same amount of fuel with the same power so the lower BTU from the 100 wasn't a factor on economy even in a 1.9T car.

United E85 is 25c a litre cheaper than regular everyday as well.....E-flex from Caltex is allot dearer in Adelaide but not sure on interstate.

I run a E48 blend(E85 and 100 octane Premium) and see 14.0ltrs/100kms around town with a average speed of 26kmh/r now so economy is great imo

If you use 3/4 to full throttle she drinks a darn lot harder than premium but that only applies for track days really....the results are more than worth the 30% extra consumption when under WOT conditions at any rpm.

More power,less boost and a cooler running engine is enough for me to stay switched.

My everyday driving has allot less effort now when getting up to speed limits with the E48 tune which I really like....possibly more than the added torque/power at less boost than before.

A bit of research before using higher than 10% ethanol for compatibility should be done though from ones self.
A hose from Gates called "Barricade" is suitable for 100% alcohol so I use this off the surge tank nipples.
A upgraded fuel filter with metal media is also a good idea.

The factory rail hoses and plastic in-tank lines on BA> Falcons are capable of withstanding E85 but the fuel filters glue is not quite at home with it from inspections on my car.They are still holding together but its obvious they are being affected somewhat.

I have also noticed the O-rings in fuel regulator to be a little less pliable but still serviceable no worries for now.
This is after 4000kms of daily driving as well.

Finally,anything that lifts the need to rely on oil has got to be a good thing.
The cleaner burning of the fuel is a bonus for generations to come as well

[ratter]

as mentioned E85 has a higher octane and allows more spark advance, but at the same time uses roughly 30% more fuel to do the job.

Any ethanol based fuel will use more fuel than unleaded fuel in a car that is operated in closed loop fuel control.

I am yet to be shown by anybody except for hearsay that the ford fuel system is compatible with high ethanol content fuels.

Gates have had issues with their barricade hose and have only recently changed the formula, they have put this down to possibly our ethanol comes from sugar cane where in the states where they are based the ethanol comes from mainly corn

[cheap]

I think people are being a little disingenuous, ethanol makes more power than gasoline, but to make the extra power +30% more ethanol fuel is required

It sounds alot like, my car will beat your car over the standing 1/4 but to do so I'll start the race at the 300m mark and use more fuel too.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by cheap

I think people are being a little disingenuous, ethanol makes more power than gasoline, but to make the extra power +30% more ethanol fuel is required

It sounds alot like, my car will beat your car over the standing 1/4 but to do so I'll start the race at the 300m mark and use more fuel too.

Huh???

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Hardtopxb

Over the life of a cow running corn / grain or a car running on ethanol,they both produce the same carbon emissions from the same plant input.

So what are you saying? Should we all be driving Cows instead of Cars? Or running our cars on Beef?

[T4ME]

Yep you need the hose with the letter A on the end of the carb number ratter.

My old e10 tune used 12.8ish around town at the same average speed so yes you will use more fuel with a higher ethanol content in closed loop.

I have had other hose issues and this is why I can say the Ford lines will be good for at least 4k as this is the stage I am up to with them trouble free unless someone has a bad quality control batch.

What has ethanol done to you Cheap lol?

[cheap]

Originally Posted by T4ME

What has ethanol done to you Cheap lol?

I've used the stuff and it fails to impress. When compared to normal gasoline, ethanol (E10) it delivers worse mileage (in my case usually 10% worse) whilst being only 2% cheaper in price. If it were 10% cheaper and delivered 10% worse mileage - then that would be fair, but it doesn't make financial sense to buy the stuff. I doubt it makes any difference to the environment since we have to burn more of the stuff to do the same work.

I could say that E10 is total rubbish, but that would probably raise the ire of the pro-ethanol team

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by cheap

I've used the stuff and it fails to impress. When compared to normal gasoline, ethanol (E10) it delivers worse mileage (in my case usually 10% worse) whilst being only 2% cheaper in price. If it were 10% cheaper and delivered 10% worse mileage - then that would be fair, but it doesn't make financial sense to buy the stuff. I doubt it makes any difference to the environment since we have to burn more of the stuff to do the same work.

I could say that E10 is total rubbish, but that would probably raise the ire of the pro-ethanol team

E10 is junk.

E85 is where its at for cheap high performance fuel.

I asked the place that is doing the dyno tune on my EL Falcon, they said its only worth it on N/A engines running sky high compression or cars with forced induction, everything else its a waste of time, they said I'd get some benefit over 98, but use nearly twice as much fuel to go the same distance, in a Falcon that'd be about 300km lol.