NSW Historic Vehicle Log Book Trial

[PCT302]

The Minister for Roads, Maritime and Freight, Duncan Gay, has asked Transport for NSW and Roads and Maritime Services to develop a Historic Vehicle Log Book Trial.

More info here http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/regi...-vehicles.html

About time

[Simple6]

That's a pretty cool development.

I just wish you could keep your current plates rather getting historic plates when you transfer to the historic rego scheme. My XB has it's original plates....

[PCT302]

Victoria is the same but u always own your current plates personalised or not, so rego on historic permit for 10 years saves around $7000 from rego and insurance then go back to full rego.
$7000 also goes a long way on running costs, petrol etc.

[Snake Bite]

Yeah in sa we can have any Plate we like rather than a special historic one

[Dr Terry]

Hi Guys

We had a meeting last night & here’s what I can tell you. I doubt that anybody is going to be driving on the new rego scheme on 1st Oct. The roll out will be progressive.

The first thing that needs to happen, is the vetting of existing RMS recognised car clubs (those who run H-plates now) so that they can OK cars on the new scheme. It seems that each club, if they wish, will need to apply to be allowed to administer the new system.

Many clubs may not want to go thru the process & some new clubs may be established, but they will be looked at closely.

The easiest cars to put on the system are those legitimately on H-plates currently. So once your club has gone thru the approval process & if your car is currently on H-plates & you want to change to the log-book scheme, then you'll probably be on by Christmas. Unmodified cars with existing full rego will follow.

If the car is modified, then engineering approval (if required) is paramount. It will be self-regulating & this is why it’s called a ‘trial’. Many minor mods will not require engineering. The VSI 6 standards will apply.

On the issue of costs, again they’re not finalised yet, but they hint at a pro-rata rate, so if your current rego figure including CTP is, then divide it by 365 & then multiply by 6, (roughly 1/6 of the total) I believe you could be close. So if your current rego & green slip totals say $900 (a common figure for old cars) then the new scheme should cost around $150.

The big question, when it comes to costs, is insurance. Again, this is a trial & what is learned over the next 2 years will then be adjusted accordingly & put into practice on a permanent basis.

Strangely, number plates are not sorted yet either. No mention was made of any new number plate type (M or S plate or whatever) or it could be that you may be able to use your existing full-rego plate although that seems unlikely according to some. One thing for certain is that rego stickers will be issued, just like H-plated cars. It appears the RMS computer can’t handle concessional rego.

I think the next few months will be interesting to say the least.

Dr Terry

[The Yeti]

Thanks Terry thats an excellent and informative post

I'm currently on H Plates

I would be interested in the 60day log book system and at a ball park of $150 I wouldn't shy away. that said I would use mine maybe 30 days on a good year, and I don't see my usage changing

I can see it being monitored VERY closely and I hope it isn't abused by some who simply want to rip the system off, other wise it would stuff it up for every one.

[Stefan]

Having clubs administer this is the problem. Not sure why everything that governments do is so dam hard.

Have a scheme were you pay for rego on a 30 year old car for either 30, 60, or full rego, 30 or 60 day rego must be accompanied by a logbook with odo entries etc. Must get annual roadworthy with odo noted each year. Must place sticker in window of 30 or 60 day cars so cops can check logbook. If logbook not complete on checking by cop the rego is cancelled for 12 months and 300 dollar fine is given.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Having clubs administer this is the problem. Not sure why everything that governments do is so dam hard.

Have a scheme were you pay for rego on a 30 year old car for either 30, 60, or full rego, 30 or 60 day rego must be accompanied by a logbook with odo entries etc. Must get annual roadworthy with odo noted each year. Must place sticker in window of 30 or 60 day cars so cops can check logbook. If logbook not complete on checking by cop the rego is cancelled for 12 months and 300 dollar fine is given.

Agreed its not rocket science.

I guess from a gov POV they are losing revenue through lower rego and would need staff/system to monitor so they are losing out?

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Agreed its not rocket science.

I guess from a gov POV they are losing revenue through lower rego and would need staff/system to monitor so they are losing out?

The clubs are not doing anything other than signing a piece of paper, the registration is managed by rms.

But I just don't like being dictated to by a club using rego to do so, some clubs are better than others. The club that I use to use have a really poor runs schedule (it use to be really good), if you don't go on 4 runs you are not eligible for rego. So in the last year there were maybe 4 good runs and 2 were rained out. So I attended 1 run but do not meet the historic rego criteria of the club.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Stefan

The clubs are not doing anything other than signing a piece of paper, the registration is managed by rms.

This is not true.

The reason the RMS want the system administered by the clubs, is to control or weed out cars that are not eligible.

This is where the club comes in, they need to make sure that the car is within the rules. Sure it might come with a Pink Slip, but as we all know this is only a safety check & not an ADR check. So if the car in question has had its heater removed, a much larger engine & a late model set of seats fitted, then this could pass a Pink Slip, but is not eligible under VSI 6. All those items require engineering certification. The club registrar, or whoever inspects the vehicles must not only be up to speed on the cars themselves, but more importantly, registration & engineering guidelines. Somebody who handles Blue Slips for example will know exactly what I mean.

Obviously the RMS does not want a repeat of what's happened in Victoria, where we often see full-on drag cars with superchargers out of the bonnet & wheelie bars driving around on historic plates.

This is the reason that many smaller clubs are not interested in going with the new system. They are happy the way it is & don't want the extra responsibility or agro that goes with it.

If you want the RMS to handle it & not the clubs it will be a lot more expensive to register your car.

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Stefan

But I just don't like being dictated to by a club using rego to do so, some clubs are better than others. The club that I use to use have a really poor runs schedule (it use to be really good), if you don't go on 4 runs you are not eligible for rego. So in the last year there were maybe 4 good runs and 2 were rained out. So I attended 1 run but do not meet the historic rego criteria of the club.

If you think you are "being dictated to by a club using rego to do so" then find another club or at least ask your club to reconsider the rules, now that the new rego scheme is not necessarily meant for club run use.

A lot of this will have to be re-thought in the coming months.

Dr Terry

[noflac52]

When this proposal was first put up there was a suggestion that joining the CMC was an option for those that didn't want to join clubs for whatever reason. I don't know if it is still on the table but it might be worth a call to the CMC to find out.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Because it is a lot easier to get a bodgy car onto historic rego thru a possibly bodgy club. Once on that rego it is easier to escape the law, because most coppers do not understand the whole historic rego thing & won't defect those cars. Drag car owners are openly flaunting the this rule, you even see them on the various car shows on community TV.

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

If the clubs don't administer the scheme, it would be more open to abuse & it would be a lot more expensive. Most car clubs that I know of are manned by volunteers.

Which one is it Terry?

See how it pans out, I deal with Gov on construction projects daily and it never ceases to amaze me the simplest task can be complicated beyond anything workable by bureaucrats. I have no doubt this will be the same.

[Dr Terry]

The top quote is based on the Vic situation, while bottom quote is referring to the proposed NSW scheme.

The 2 schemes are markedly different !!

Dr Terry

[2011G6E]

Long as it's "days" and not "kilometer limit"...sounds like a great idea!

[5.8]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Long as it's "days" and not "kilometer limit"...sounds like a great idea!

My question to the RMS was what constitutes a "day"? Does taking the car out for an hour run mean you have used it for a day or can several hour runs make up a day. I have rang the RMS but cannot get an answer from them. It seems this trial system will have as many grey areas as the current system.

Our NSW based club is on the historic rego scheme and we don't inspect the cars, each member has to obtain a pink slip each year and the registrar just completes the historic declaration form. This takes the onus off the club for the roadworthiness responsibility.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by 5.8

My question to the RMS was what constitutes a "day"? Does taking the car out for an hour run mean you have used it for a day or can several hour runs make up a day. I have rang the RMS but cannot get an answer from them. It seems this trial system will have as many grey areas as the current system.

I have asked the RMS this same question & got several different responses, the most sensible was this:- "Like any logbook, you fill it out at the beginning of the day & finish it off at the end, even if that meant several journeys, during that day".

So to my way of thinking, you would just fill it out at the beginning of the day & then after you have made those journeys that day, fill the book out accordingly.

The only 'grey areas' with the current system are the way some clubs stretch the rules. The rules simply say "Historic vehicles must be as close to original condition as possible, with no alterations except for safety features such as seat belts and turn indicators or period accessories and options, if desired." Which part of that says you can modify your car in any way you like ?

Originally Posted by 5.8

Our NSW based club is on the historic rego scheme and we don't inspect the cars, each member has to obtain a pink slip each year and the registrar just completes the historic declaration form. This takes the onus off the club for the roadworthiness responsibility.

The cars still need to be inspected by the club on a yearly basis. The onus is on the club to make sure that the car is eligible, before filling out the 1259 form (i.e. it must be deemed historically correct). The pink slip (safety inspection) is a separate requirement.

Dr Terry.

[5.8]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I have asked the RMS this same question & got several different responses, the most sensible was this:- "Like any logbook, you fill it out at the beginning of the day & finish it off at the end, even if that meant several journeys, during that day".

So to my way of thinking, you would just fill it out at the beginning of the day & then after you have made those journeys that day, fill the book out accordingly.

The only 'grey areas' with the current system are the way some clubs stretch the rules. The rules simply say "Historic vehicles must be as close to original condition as possible, with no alterations except for safety features such as seat belts and turn indicators or period accessories and options, if desired." Which part of that says you can modify your car in any way you like ?

The cars still need to be inspected by the club on a yearly basis. The onus is on the club to make sure that the car is eligible, before filling out the 1259 form (i.e. it must be deemed historically correct). The pink slip (safety inspection) is a separate requirement.

Dr Terry.

Dr Terry
My question is does using the vehicle for an hour in the day (to go and get a wheel alignment for example) constitute "one days use" out of the 60 days you are allowed? Does any use, regardless of how long that use is, on a calender day mean you have used one of your 60 days up?

Some examples of the grey areas I refer to that the current system has in NSW is if the vehicle is being used for "servicing within a short distance of their place of garaging" the registrar does not need to be notified. What is the definition of a short distance? The RMS cannot give an answer.

The vehicle can be used for maintenance - definition of maintenance? Is it taking it to a mechanic or is it simply taking the vehicle for a drive to keep the fluids moving about in it - again no definitive answer from the RMS

Vehicles have to be as close to original as possible with only options and "period accessories". What length is the period? Can an XY have simmons wheels, they weren't around when XY's were new but would probably be classed as a period accessory by some. Again, no definitive answer can be obtained by the RMS.

Whilst these questions may seem trivial and open to interpretation the bigger concern is when a collision involving serious injuries to people occurs with a historically registered vehicle and the personal injury insurer (QBE I believe it is) disallows a claim due to the above mentioned grey areas. The insurer could state that the vehicle or its use was not in accordance with the historical registration scheme and people are left with medical bills for $100,000's.

I dont think the clubs stretching rules is the problem, its the fact that the RMS fail to provide clear precise rules regarding historic registration and therefore it is left up to each clubs interpretations. The issue this creates is whether claims will be met by the personal injury insurer should the need arise.

[noflac52]

One problem with the historic scheme in NSW is that no one knows what is eligible and what isn't.

I attended the RMS conferences that were held to discuss the enthusiast car scene a few years ago an example was given of a mid sixties sedan. An eh holden was the example at the time and it was discussed that it would be considered eligible if it had a yella terra head, twin carbs, lowered with wide chrome wheels. All accessories of the era, and the RMS had no issue with this but try to get it on historic plates with a lot of clubs and you will fail to do so.

[Kingsley]

Any system is open to abuse. Look at the problems with log books in the heavy vehicle industry or the 'L' plater log books. If someone always finds a loop hole...
I just found it more convenient to rego mine on full rego because I drive mine regularly anyway. It is more expensive but I didn't want to join a club, attend club meetings and therefore get involved in club politics just for the pleasure of being able to drive my car when I want.

[noflac52]

I think you might find that 8 inch rims were legal on 70's falcons back in the day because the regulation allowed rims 1 inch wider than the largest manufacturers optional wheel. 7 inch rims were optional on xy's/xa's. Using a 50/50 offset the track would not be increased either.

[snowcone]

I am concerned that my 58 Customline will not be eligible because it has Jellybean Mags on it.
These are old school but certainly weren't around in the 50's and 60's
I don't fancy sourcing and using a set of 60 year old skinny steel wheels and then heading off down the M1 at 110 km/h so what is legal/better/safer - dangerous old rusty rims or better engineered alloy wheels

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by snowcone

I am concerned that my 58 Customline will not be eligible because it has Jellybean Mags on it.
These are old school but certainly weren't around in the 50's and 60's
I don't fancy sourcing and using a set of 60 year old skinny steel wheels and then heading off down the M1 at 110 km/h so what is legal/better/safer - dangerous old rusty rims or better engineered alloy wheels

OK, they're not eligible under current H-plate rules, but the new system is being introduced in 2 stages. The 2nd stage is for legally modified street cars, which do not have to be 'period correct'.

Dr Terry

[noflac52]

That's a good point. Its why the modified scheme is a great thing for us.
It takes the personal interpretation of the rules for historic rego out of the equation.

You can now register it on the modified scheme. All it will need is a pink slip or blue slip for a first time rego. Unless the rims are outrageously wide you shouldn't have any problems if you are a club member.

There was a time when 10 inch wide rims were legal on the rear of cars over a certain weight back then. I can't remember the weights but I think a Cusso would be in the category being a full chassis car. The regulation may not have been in for many years but it certainly puts your wheels in the frame for legality if they aren't very wide.