The dangerous side of mobile speed cameras - rant.

David See · 27-07-2006, 01:05 AM

Hi all,

I am dead-set against speed cameras. Fixed or Mobile. I am dead-set against any cameras used by authorities to record public happenings. Personally, I think it is a violation of one's privacy and something that will only get worse.

My opinion is that speed cameras are nothing but revenue raisers and I woud LOVE for someone to prove me wrong. Even if it is to put my mind at ease.

It is ludicrous to think speed cameras do any good.

Let's look at fixed speed cameras:

(1) "They are installed in black spots." Rubbish!

On The Central Coast, we have speed cameras installed on perfectly straight bits of comparitively good road that have rarely seen a major accident. One in particular, on Woy Woy road, is installed 2km from where a major black spot USED to be until the road was fixed. Now the road is excellent either side of the speed camera for some distance. So why is it still installed now?

Additionally, I was of the opinion a "Black Spot" could not be pinned down to 10 metres. Shouldn't there be speed cameras the entire length of a Black Spot?

(2) They are installed in School Zones for the safety of kids. Bulldust!

What about the area in a school zone that the speed camera does not cover once installed. Surely the speed camera should cover the ENTIRE section of the school zone, not just where your car runs over a sensor!

(3) They are used to detect speeding motorists. Debatable!

What about the fact that they have been proved unreliable and sometimes/many times inaccurate. Surely this should, on its own, render them ILLEGAL instantly until proven 100% accurate 100% of the time.

Remember: If you are booked by a fixed speed camera and the camera is proven incorrect, you WILL NOT get your points back. I repeat: If you are proven innocent, you WILL NOT get your points back. There is NO power in this country big enough to overturn the RTA's points system. This was discovered recently by a colleague who fought a speed camera fine and won, but did not and could not get his points back.

Let's look at mobile speed cameras:

(1) The police park their cars in such a way that it is difficult to spot them. Why - unless the prime aim is to trick drivers into being caught. Have you ever noticed on the NSW Police station wagons with cameras installed that there are no POLICE stickers on the rear of the car? Surely that cannot be so they appear as any other normal car parked on the side of the road???

We have one Speed Camera car regularly hidden behind a concrete barrier on the F3 at Tuggerah southbound - you would not know he was there. He is in a no stopping zone and the little sign is wedged under the Armco railing. No chance of seeing him - the Police must have been very proud of discovering that spot!

(2) They use tiny signs to warn drivers of the camera and it is often away from the car.

There is no doubt that these devices are used to "catch" the unsuspecting driver. GOTCHA! Half the time we don't even know we have been caught until the notice arrives in the mail. This doesn't slow us down, all it does is make us paranoid when driving and turn us into dangerous drivers. We have all these rules, regulations, signs and warnings to watch for and yet we STILL - after all this time - have only 12 points to lose.

Today I was driving out of Newcastle at The Junction and at the last second spotted a "Speed Camera In Use" sign on the side of the road. I wasn't speeding, but do you know the first thing I did? I instinctively jammed on the brakes FOR NO REASON apart from being shocked by the presence of the sign. Hidden in the long grass next to the kerb.

My argument is that if a speed camera car is properly identified, it will slow all diligent, responsible and aware drivers down to a safe speed - if they are speeding in the first place, that is.

They will still catch the ones that shouldn't be on the road - the ones that aren't aware of their surroundings and are driving oblivious to all around them.

Speed cameras only achieve two things:

(1) Raise Revenue - if not, why do Police have to "hide" to get the fines?
(2) Make drivers paranoid. And a paranoid driver, my friend, is not a safe driver.

The other negative about speed cameras is that they target professional drivers who spend their life driving. The odds are against them. Not granny who might drive to the shops once a week.

Perhaps we should get more points to "lose" on our licence now that there are so many traps, technology and tricks to catch us out.

schmidty · 27-07-2006, 01:23 AM

At least most of your camers are signed! I drove between newcastle and coffs and back a few weeks ago while on holiday, 3 massive signs leading up to the cameras

SPEED CAMERA AHEAD

SPEED CAMERAS OPERATE 24 HOURS

SPEED CAMERAS OPERATING IN THIS AREA

In victoria they shove them behind road signs on over head gantrys, on the back of bridges, on the front of bridges, in the tunnels, On poles at intersections, on the front of cars on the side of the road, mobile radar on cars, hand held radar and all the cameras are set at 3kph tolerances.

On the princess hwy from geelong to melbourne for instance, there are 4 or 5 cameras in a 50km stretch of straight, flat, 3 lanes in each direction hwy. Now thats a joke!

I agree with your points totally! So imagine whats it like down here where everything is done on the sly.

Envious · 27-07-2006, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schmidty

At least most of your camers are signed! I drove between newcastle and coffs and back a few weeks ago while on holiday, 3 massive signs leading up to the cameras

SPEED CAMERA AHEAD

SPEED CAMERAS OPERATE 24 HOURS

SPEED CAMERAS OPERATING IN THIS AREA

In victoria they shove them behind road signs on over head gantrys, on the back of bridges, on the front of bridges, in the tunnels, On poles at intersections, on the front of cars on the side of the road, mobile radar on cars, hand held radar and all the cameras are set at 3kph tolerances.

On the princess hwy from geelong to melbourne for instance, there are 4 or 5 cameras in a 50km stretch of straight, flat, 3 lanes in each direction hwy. Now thats a joke!

I agree with your points totally! So imagine whats it like down here where everything is done on the sly.

Try having one (a motorcycle officer) sitting BEHIND a bus stop with just his arm and head hanging out and zapping people. Only reason everyone saw him is because the nice people in the bus stop were waving their arms and pointing at him. And another one (an actual camera car) parked approx 50m down a side street zapping people on the main road. He was getting people through the gap between two houses. Both of these were on the top of a hill. And police wonder why people are so short with them when they pull people over.

gbright · 27-07-2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schmidty

At least most of your camers are signed! I drove between newcastle and coffs and back a few weeks ago while on holiday, 3 massive signs leading up to the cameras

SPEED CAMERA AHEAD

SPEED CAMERAS OPERATE 24 HOURS

SPEED CAMERAS OPERATING IN THIS AREA

In victoria they shove them behind road signs on over head gantrys, on the back of bridges, on the front of bridges, in the tunnels, On poles at intersections, on the front of cars on the side of the road, mobile radar on cars, hand held radar and all the cameras are set at 3kph tolerances.

On the princess hwy from geelong to melbourne for instance, there are 4 or 5 cameras in a 50km stretch of straight, flat, 3 lanes in each direction hwy. Now thats a joke!

I agree with your points totally! So imagine whats it like down here where everything is done on the sly.

[Start rant] Right ive said this many a time but i just dont understand how people in nsw get done by camera's unless of course they are comlete idiot's or have suffered a recent labotamy it is impossible to miss cameras in nsw especialy with 3 warnings for fixed ones maybe it just victorians are more used to looking for hidden cameras so when one is half obvious it scream's at us all that being said i do agree with you but spend some time driving on vic road's and you will hate them even more [end rant]

David See · 27-07-2006, 01:26 AM

Don't worry. I could bet my you-know-whats it is only a matter of time for us here, too.

All they need is an excuse!

But in reality, what are they trying to do? All they will achieve is that there will be no drivers on the road.

calaway · 27-07-2006, 08:10 AM

I agree also with what you are saying. My personal grip with what has been acheived by the cameras is the flow of traffic. Once apon a time merging on the roads used to be reasonably simple. Now everyone is so concerned about driving a kilometer above the speed limit they sit there and hold their position.

Personally I think this can be more dangerous at times particularly when you are stuck next to a prime mover on a freeway. Having been pushed into a barrier at 110kph, I can tell you it isn't a nice experience.

This is real world stuff, but try telling a government that.

Casper · 27-07-2006, 08:10 AM

Its just revenue raising, we all know it, they even know it. Its not even a "stealth tax" anymore, its far to overt for that. Pity it hasnt made one iota of difference to the road toll. Its a pity all this crap is out there but people are still dieing just like they used to before camera's were introduced.....

David See · 27-07-2006, 09:48 AM

It's amazing isn't it, how Police spend so much time working out ways to get you. Shame that same energy wasn't used in better ways.

Everyone speeds somewhere, sometime and no ne is ever going to stop as either (a) They hope they won't get caught or (b) they are not actually aware they are speeding.

I think the tar on roads should be colour-coded so we all know what speed we should be doing at that place. I regularly find myself thinking "what speed am I supposed to be doing here?" as there are no signs. And that's not me breaking the law, that is me not being informed by those who enforce the laws.

Another case of the ridiculous is the police hiding their cars in Brooks avenue at Wyoming (a side street here) and having one officer standing behind a telegraph pole next to the main road with the laser, just his arm and head poking out. You come over a hill and this intersection is at the bottom of that hill. You just cannot see him until on top of him. Too late.

Fact is, all this activity does not slow people down - it just makes everyone paranoid - and therefore dangerouand as if the authorities would agree!

Funny how here they call the laser gun a "Lidar" (Lie-dar) - that says it all.

gbright · 27-07-2006, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David See

I think the tar on roads should be colour-coded so we all know what speed we should be doing at that place. I regularly find myself thinking "what speed am I supposed to be doing here?" as there are no signs. And that's not me breaking the law, that is me not being informed by those who enforce the laws.

sorry to be pedantic mate but ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it it is up to you to find out the speed limit and adhere to it (there will be a sign somewhere) and if all fails do the low legal limit witch is 50 in vic otherwise its on you if you get busted in shot "im so sorry officer i didnt know" just isnt good enough and another note you are the type of people they are targeting with speed cameras people driving along not even aware of how fast they should be goingwhat do you do just make up your own speed???

SB076 · 27-07-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbright

sorry to be pedantic mate but ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it it is up to you to find out the speed limit and adhere to it (there will be a sign somewhere) and if all fails do the low legal limit witch is 50 in vic otherwise its on you if you get busted in shot "im so sorry officer i didnt know" just isnt good enough and another note you are the type of people they are targeting with speed cameras people driving along not even aware of how fast they should be goingwhat do you do just make up your own speed???

If those setting the law where a bit more consistent it would be easier for us to abide by it. Herald Sun had an article awhile ago the Princess Hwy around Berwick changes speed zones 10 times or something within a few k's. Very easy to get done by cameras unless you are constantly looking out for speed signs.

gbright · 27-07-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB076

If those setting the law where a bit more consistent it would be easier for us to abide by it. Herald Sun had an article awhile ago the Princess Hwy around Berwick changes speed zones 10 times or something within a few k's. Very easy to get done by cameras unless you are constantly looking out for speed signs.

Fair point and dont get me wrong i am against speed cameras i just think if were gonna complain about it or argue a case lets do it within the bounds of the law because otherwise we dont have a leg to stand on

SB076 · 27-07-2006, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbright

Fair point and dont get me wrong i am against speed cameras i just think if were gonna complain about it or argue a case lets do it within the bounds of the law because otherwise we dont have a leg to stand on

I agree, and personally I cant see any government scrapping them or making major changes to how they operate, because they generate too much revenue. I just wish governments were a bit more honest and said that they are there to fine you if you speed. They dont save lives and in my opinion. Cars and driving need to be treated with the proper amount of respect and too all the do gooders out there that think if we drive around at 10k under the limit there will still be no fatalaties, think again.

**Peuty** · 27-07-2006, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David See

And that's not me breaking the law, that is me not being informed by those who enforce the laws.

I'm sorry, that is the most ridiculious thing I have ever heard.

Since when is it the law enforcement agencies job to inform you of the speed limit?

Anyhooo, I don't totally disagree with you, speed cameras are a rort.

XA Coupsta · 27-07-2006, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David See

Hi all,

I am dead-set against speed cameras. Fixed or Mobile. I am dead-set against any cameras used by authorities to record public happenings. Personally, I think it is a violation of one's privacy and something that will only get worse.

Ummmm.....I think the horse has bolted on this one. Are you aware of how man times a day you are recorded/photographed/logged by some form of electronic surveillance?

No Im not a conspiracist - this is reality.

Keeping on topic - yeh sure I hate speed cameras too. Does anyone think they are going to go away though?

No chance!!!

Bud Bud · 27-07-2006, 11:19 AM

I am constantly amazed that with all the ever constantly changing laws (introduction of 50 k zones etc.) and the constant introduction of even more and new hi-tech speed cameras, that the road toll just is not coming down at all. In the last ten years In SA the road toll has stalled. The same number of fatalities is almost repeatable year after year.

1999 153
2000 166
2001 153
2002 154
2003 156
2004 154

All this during the height of the government’s growing love affair with the use of speed cameras.

I have driven right through the 80's and 90's and the most significant factor that I have noticed is the lack of Police road presence. The old "speed trap" is now long gone but it served as a constant notice to speedsters as it was so visible. The hidden speed cameras are great for revenue, but you could get caught by one and not even know any thing about for two weeks or so.

What would happen if a camera snapped someone doing 90 or 100 in a 60, and then 500 meters up the road and has a "speed related" accident and kills him or herself along with a young family travelling the other way? Who will they send the fine to?

Don’t get me wrong intentional speeding is a no no and along with the government taking a greater responsibility for improving road infrastructure etc., road safety must also be taught in schools as a compulsory subject. You can be taught to practice safety measures through drilling young people with road safety awareness in much the same way that the times tables are learnt. Only then would attitudes really begin to change.

It is amazing how much attitudes do change as you get older, this certainly happens as you become more aware as well.

EA2BA · 27-07-2006, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

I am constantly amazed that with all the ever constantly changing laws (introduction of 50 k zones etc.) and the constant introduction of even more and new hi-tech speed cameras, that the road toll just is not coming down at all. In the last ten years In SA the road toll has stalled. The same number of fatalities is almost repeatable year after year.

1999 153
2000 166
2001 153
2002 154
2003 156
2004 154

The figures which you call static should be compared as a % to the number of cars on the road, as the population is growing so is the number of licenced drivers and cars on the road, so in effect the figures are dropping, why no printing of these facts?? .............. as then the govt would have no excuse for more camera's.

Bud Bud · 27-07-2006, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EA2BA

The figures which you call static should be compared as a % to the number of cars on the road, as the population is growing so is the number of licenced drivers and cars on the road, so in effect the figures are dropping, why no printing of these facts?? .............. as then the govt would have no excuse for more camera's.

You are right, there are more cars on the road today than there was a decade earlier. I did think of the same thing when I looked up those stats. However I also realised that there were less cars and less population a decade earlier again, and yet the road toll still fell in SA considerably over previous two decades as the population along with more vehicle usage increased.

In 1974 the road toll in SA was an appalling and sad 382 lives.
In 1997 the road toll was a significantly improved figure at 158. Still sad

Yet during this period car popularity really exploded as the population increased as well as the 2 and even 3 car family became the norm. The Idea of speed cameras was not realised in Adelaide until the early 90's and yet the road toll had its most significant decline during this time. Around the same time as the Police were more proactive.

As I mentioned in an earlier post I was driving during this period (got my licence in 1979 I think), and I can still recall a heavy Police road presence, far greater than today.

I also know that mandatory seat belt usage played a very significant role in the lowering of the road toll through this time as well as the introduction of the rolling RBT unit. In the 90's we also saw the introduction of air bag technology all though this may have a greater impact soon as kids trade in there EA's for AU's and VN's for VT's. While this will help curb the road toll somewhat it won’t help you if you still hit a tree at 130.

Attitudes must change. If it was possible for a person that died after hitting a tree at 130 to be asked if they would do it again I am sure that the majority would say no, because their attitude would be different. As I also said in a previous post, this needs to be taught as a subject in school, if you want young people to change their attitudes.

Or we can just feel all warm and fuzzy, safe in the knowledge that "SPEED CAMERAS SAVE LIVES".

blueoval · 27-07-2006, 11:43 AM

Why would the governemt spend money on driver training and road safety when they can MAKE money just pinging you for the tiniest infringement? (sarcasm) Its just not in their best interest and as Bud has said, makes not difference to road tolls. Greed is taking over.

SB076 · 27-07-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

Why would the governemt spend money on driver training and road safety when they can MAKE money just pinging you for the tiniest infringement? (sarcasm) Its just not in their best interest and as Bud has said, makes not difference to road tolls. Greed is taking over.

I agree, accidents and fatalities are caused by many things it would be interesting to see if the government put as much effort fixing those as it did targeting speeding and seeing what results we would get.

LTDHO · 27-07-2006, 12:35 PM

David, I don't see what your rant is about, try driving in Vic where there are speed cameras as you back out of your driveway [/sarcasm]

Seriously, they make great money at a minimal cost, so they will never go. The government has the average Joe Public thinking they save lives, so they remain.

landau5.8 · 27-07-2006, 01:24 PM

I am amazed that this site is here for the only reason of complaining. I dont agree with speed cameras either but at least have the guts to do something about it. Just think of it this was, why do you think the the government of australia has banned ownership of guns to the general public?.Safety? BULL****. If there are no guns there can be no revolt by the people. Hence, there will be no rebelling and the government can and will continue to screw us (the Taxpayer). Once we stand united against this capitalist Government only then will we be heard. And start doing what we do out west in sydney, just start torching thef*****s..
Please note that I am not a communist, just an avid supporter of what is right/wrong.

XA Coupsta · 27-07-2006, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by landau5.8

I am amazed that this site is here for the only reason of complaining. I dont agree with speed cameras either but at least have the guts to do something about it. Just think of it this was, why do you think the the government of australia has banned ownership of guns to the general public?.Safety? BULL****. If there are no guns there can be no revolt by the people. Hence, there will be no rebelling and the government can and will continue to screw us (the Taxpayer). Once we stand united against this capitalist Government only then will we be heard. And start doing what we do out west in sydney, just start torching thef*****s..
Please note that I am not a communist, just an avid supporter of what is right/wrong.

Oh my god are you for real? No guns/no revolt, etc, etc????

HLC · 27-07-2006, 04:36 PM

this thread is stupid.

bessxg · 27-07-2006, 03:26 PM

There are no such things as speed camera warning signs in WA. Just a bright yellow sign that says, "you've just passed a speed camera", so at least you can expect a letter in the post.

Our community is loving the fact that local police have gone on wages protest and are parking their cars in full view, next to the cameras. That pretty much proves your point about the cameras sole purpose being revenue raising...

crusher · 27-07-2006, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bessxg

There are no such things as speed camera warning signs in WA. Just a bright yellow sign that says, "you've just passed a speed camera", so at least you can expect a letter in the post.

Our community is loving the fact that local police have gone on wages protest and are parking their cars in full view, next to the cameras. That pretty much proves your point about the cameras sole purpose being revenue raising...

Parking right in front of the cameras? Maybe in the city but up in the hills they hid in the bushes and you only see them once youve been flashed or go past and there directly next to you.

And they put the sign right next to it hidden in the bushes as well. I didnt even see the sign today. Saw the camera and as has been mentioned you instinctively jump off the accelerator and on the brakes. I was dead on the limit but and i knew it but i still jumped.

I dont like em. Not at all. Specially when they set up at night. No warning before or after. Just a red flash if you get done. Quite strange and quite annoying.

the black pig · 27-07-2006, 04:01 PM

The real annoyance is the b_llsht of speed cameras was known and recognised years ago.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/caspe...20analysis.pdf

Everyone should read this and it should be stuck up the noses of every police person and up the _rse of every politician who belongs to a party which supports these one-eyed money pumps. Send it to your friends. Stick it under windscreen wipers.

----
I just spent a month driving round Britain and have seen how bad it can get. Speed cameras are EVERYWHERE. In the most amazingly sneaky places. So the traffic sort of pulses as everyone slows down for the camera and and then drives like a maniac till they reach the next one. Sometimes the cameras are only 200m apart. One instance of police/government nastiness is that trucks have a 10mph lower speed limit than cars and there are no overtaking lanes or passing bays. So trucks grind along at 50mph for miles and miles with tails of maybe 40 or 50 cars grinding along behind them, all bunched nose to tail. And then you'll come to a section of road where visibility is good, the road is clear, there's a dotted centre-line, and at last you can pull out and pass the truck. And so you put your foot down to overtake and just as you get alongside the truck, whammo - a speed camera. Cunningly sited at the only bit of road safe for overtaking for miles. And the cops and politicians wonder why much of the community loathes them.

The Brits are a complete bunch of girls' blouses for letting their government rape them in the bottom with this unfair, unjust, social safety engineering of the most dishonest and hypocritical kind. I would hope if speed cameras become more prevalent here, Australians will show more backbone and will take them on, and not just bend over and open wide like the poms have.

Fairmont I6 · 31-07-2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the black pig

The real annoyance is the b_llsht of speed cameras was known and recognised years ago.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/caspe...20analysis.pdf

Everyone should read this and it should be stuck up the noses of every police person and up the _rse of every politician who belongs to a party which supports these one-eyed money pumps. Send it to your friends. Stick it under windscreen wipers.

.

wow everyone really should read this before posting anything else

Auslandau · 31-07-2006, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairmont I6

wow everyone really should read this before posting anything else

Yes totally agree.........Please read the FACTS then post. Very good reading, even if you dont agree, but hard not to as everything is statisticaly based.

Here is is again......
http://members.optusnet.com.au/caspe...20analysis.pdf

| [/url] |

GCFordChic · 27-07-2006, 04:05 PM

I just cant bite my tongue and turn away from this one.

I know i could get caught speeding by a cop behind a bush but i also know the law. I am not a paranoid driver, i am a more aware and vigilent driver because i quickly glance down at the speedo regularly, like i do my mirrors.
If i am attentive i can drive the whole way to where im going without speeding. If i get lazy and dont pay as much attention to it and go a few k's over i can quickly correct myself without panic. I know that if i ever get 'done' by a speed camera it will serve to remind me that i need to be an attentive, responsible, law-abiding driver.

The reason they are put in random spots and not just blackspots is because on a dead straight piece of road, no matter what the speed limit or the situation around you some lunatic will decide to go 30km over the speed limit.

Oooh the big stupid nasty government...they just want to get money out of the lawbreakers...ooooh thats so mean!!!! People complain that not enough money is being spent on roads/health/education/whatever and yet noone is willing to pay for it.

We all know the rules! Everytime we get in our cars we accept that we are driving on public roads and have to abide by the laws. If you dont like it...dont drive. If you have no option but to drive, then obey the laws and you dont have a problem.

David See · 27-07-2006, 04:53 PM

Such positive input, HLC. Well done.

Everyone *knows* what speed cameras are about: Revenue. That's all. And yet it is painted with the pretty colour of safety so we swallow it.

I agree that if we purposefully speed, then cop it sweet. If your car is your office and you drive thousands of kilometres a week, then there is the very distinct possibility that for that moment of lapse in concentration you could get caught.

My argument is that we have so many things to concern ourselves about when driving these days and that there are so many ways we could get caught, we still have only 12 points to lose. Perhaps that should be doubled for professional drivers?

I feel sorry for the guys in other states that are not warned. And feel lucky for us.

Maybe I just hate sneaks in general. And that, perhaps, is what my rant was about.