Ethanol Queensland Government Investing

XR6BADBOY:P · 11-04-2005, 07:33 PM

Does anyone have experience in this field ?

Will we be killing our engines by using this?

Today Peter Bettie on Tele in QLD, going to invest money into this area after a lengthy tour of Japan.

What happened with was it Mexico's trial of Ethanol? Is it the same trial tht Pete Beattie was going to look into?

:

Cheers.

MO · 11-04-2005, 07:50 PM

I won't be using it till I get a guarantee from FORD that it won't harm my motor and its cheaper.

As for trials don't know about Mexico but they are selling 10% mix in Bundaberg in a trial situation.

AUIII XR8 MAN · 11-04-2005, 08:51 PM

It mite be cheaper but the servo's aren't selling it any cheaper. If you motor was rebuild to cope with it hotter burnning than you will not have problem.

11-04-2005, 09:46 PM

Why dont they try to get 10% of cars to run on pure ethanol instead of trying to get 100% of the cars to run 10% ethanol. Doesnt pure ethanol have performance and cost advantages?

Yaw · 11-04-2005, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Why dont they try to get 10% of cars to run on pure ethanol instead of trying to get 100% of the cars to run 10% ethanol. Doesnt pure ethanol have performance and cost advantages?

Or for that matter bio desiel.

I believe though ethanol has quite a few problems.
Low self life compared to ulp or LRP or any of the premiums.
Ethanol has a corrosive aspect about it also.
One of the reasons it has a low shelf life is due to the properties thats it absorbs mositure (water) .

Caltex and BP have both already done trials in Brisbane.
Bp's last I heard said although the trial was a succsess the fuel sales at the selected sites dropped off. I think they were gunna let it drop.
If Qld is investing it will most likely come from caltex/ampol as they and bp are the only refineries up here.

Trevor 57 · 12-04-2005, 06:31 AM

The were making bio-diesel down our way, but the the price of canola made it dearer than ordinary diesel. Canola prices fluctuate depending on demand for it on the grain markets.

HOON69 · 12-04-2005, 06:37 AM

i wont be using it,i'll go lpg before touching that crap..

pauljh74 · 12-04-2005, 01:48 PM

There's also the problem that production of ethanol creates greenhouse gases - so the environmental benefits of ethanol vs oil based fuels are negated. It also produces 30% less energy than petrol - so you'll use more of it for the same amount of energy. Unless it's cheaper, and cars are built in the future with the necessary parts to ethanol proof them, I won't be touching ethanol blends either.

The Commodores exported to South America - Brazil I believe - have nickel plated fuel lines and other bits replaced - as well as a different paint formula around the fuel filler - a 22% ethanol blend is used there. So even if a 10% blend is used here, then it would be safe to say that some parts would prematurely wear because of the ethanol. Not as rapidly as it would with a 22% blend though. So running ethanol would increase the costs of running a car through increased maintenance and higher consumption. The main reason the government is behind it is to help the farmers - to give sugar cane producers another income stream.

Sourbastard · 12-04-2005, 02:18 PM

I'd rather replace fuel lines then pay 1.30 a litre for premium.

30% less energy then then petrol? thats only half the equation. Methyl alcohol has a low comubstion energy. However, it also has the lowest stoichiometric or chemically correct air-fuel ratio. Therefore, an engine burning methyl alcohol would produce the most power. It also is possible to take advantage of the higher octane ratings of methyl (and ethyl) alcohol and increase the engine compression ratio. This would increase the efficiency of converting the potential combustion energy to power. Finally, alcohols burn more completely, thus increasing combustion efficiency.

So what if it runs rich, its cheap and renewable. Hell I can make it myself easily.

Yes some alcohols act like solvents, mostly though arent corrosive enough to harm the metals in an engine fatally as you suggest. Mostly they are corrosive to plastics, but only some plastics, neoprene fuel lines work great with almost all alcohol fuels.

The level of greenhosue gases are so low as to be laughable. Yeast eats sugar, farts out carbon dioxide and ethanol, you heat the mash to release the ethanol and distill it. Saying the production of ethanol is dangerous to the greenhouse effect is like saying the production of beer and bourbon will end life on the planet.

There are a ton of resources out there on how to convert your engine to alcohols and many people in the US are running cars on pure ethanol/methanol/butyl alcohol with no problems and less cost. There are even Mass produced vehicles from GM and Ford that run on E85(25% petrol 85% ethanol) and Indy cars next year are going ethanol blend.

Also we are alrady using ethanol in our fuels here, 10% infact(or more depending on who you ask), thats one of the reasons Premium fuels keep your engine clean? Have a higher octane level? Alcohol does this.

mcflux · 12-04-2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

I'd rather replace fuel lines then pay 1.30 a litre for premium.

...

So what if it runs rich, its cheap and renewable. Hell I can make it myself easily.

Bring on biodiesel and ethanol blends! (Biodiesel comes in blends too, B20 <20% biodiesel vs 80% diesel> and B100 in the US I recall)

I don't see us being able to stick oil rigs over city cemetaries for another couple of million years, so I think we'll be forced into ethanol anyway, whether the average motorist likes it or not.

-Dave-

NRG 290 · 12-04-2005, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

I'd rather replace fuel lines then pay 1.30 a litre for premium.

30% less energy then then petrol? thats only half the equation. Methyl alcohol has a low comubstion energy. However, it also has the lowest stoichiometric or chemically correct air-fuel ratio. Therefore, an engine burning methyl alcohol would produce the most power. It also is possible to take advantage of the higher octane ratings of methyl (and ethyl) alcohol and increase the engine compression ratio. This would increase the efficiency of converting the potential combustion energy to power. Finally, alcohols burn more completely, thus increasing combustion efficiency.

Also we are alrady using ethanol in our fuels here, 10% infact(or more depending on who you ask), thats one of the reasons Premium fuels keep your engine clean? Have a higher octane level? Alcohol does this.

So, if all this is correct, (and as I understand it Indy cars have been running on methanol for years), is it just a case of the oil companies pushing the bad or potentially bad aspects of ethanol. What you have said, I have heard nobody else say, by the govt. or the media. Most people against ethanol would be that way due to their lack of knowledge. I know I don't trust it yet, as I don't have a lot of knowledge. People invest a lot of time and money into their cars, so its easy to see how anyone can be very skeptical about ethanol.

The govt. says ethanol is a green fuel, but this is talking it up quite a bit. You still need the energy to distill ethanol and we still get that from burning fossil fuels. Until solar energy is developed or an equivelent, ethanol won't be a green fuel.

Sourbastard · 12-04-2005, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NRG 290

So, if all this is correct, (and as I understand it Indy cars have been running on methanol for years), is it just a case of the oil companies pushing the bad or potentially bad aspects of ethanol. What you have said, I have heard nobody else say, by the govt. or the media. Most people against ethanol would be that way due to their lack of knowledge. I know I don't trust it yet, as I don't have a lot of knowledge. People invest a lot of time and money into their cars, so its easy to see how anyone can be very skeptical about ethanol.

The govt. says ethanol is a green fuel, but this is talking it up quite a bit. You still need the energy to distill ethanol and we still get that from burning fossil fuels. Until solar energy is developed or an equivelent, ethanol won't be a green fuel.

Mate dont take my word for it, infact please dont, but research it yourself as I have. Some of what I've posted came from here

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/farmmgt/05010.html

and there is much more information on the net about it. And if that isnt good enough, next time you are at the drags take a close look at the top alcohol dragster going past. If this stuff was low on power, had no potential except for damage, or unreliable, it wouldnt find its way into racing.

As to the point about using energy to make ethanol, well yes and no. I make ethanol whenever I brew, just with yeast and sugar. Ethanol has a boiling point of just 78C, hence how it is boiled off of the mash into the condenser without the water going with it. Its not a huge amount of energy required compared to what you get out. On a hot summers day you can get temperatures near this in a car parked at Coles. Hot Cars In Summer

pauljh74 · 13-04-2005, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

I'd rather replace fuel lines then pay 1.30 a litre for premium.

I'm saying if a system is put in place where different parts are used - via ADRs on new cars for example, then ethanol fuel would be OK in those cars. Even if it is cheap to make, what makes you think that fuel companies would pass on the full savings to motorists? Chances are you'd still pay $1.30/litre for premium. but now you'd have parts needing more frequent replacement due to the slight corrosive properties of even a 10% ethanol blend. You may be able to replace parts with ethanol tolerant materials - but I don't see why people should be forced into replacing parts through premature wear for a "green" fuel that most likely will cost them the same as regular petrol! If Brazil's 22% blend requires modifications to export Commodores, then there's no way that I can believe that 10% blends are harmless to current petrol cars. The government's half baked effort to get ethanol into our petrol tanks will have limited success as it hasn't been thought through properly.

I think ethanol blends could work with changes in vehicles - but for a straight fuel substitute in CURRENT everyday cars, it has more negatives than positives in my opinion.

Sourbastard · 13-04-2005, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauljh74

I'm saying if a system is put in place where different parts are used - via ADRs on new cars for example, then ethanol fuel would be OK in those cars. Even if it is cheap to make, what makes you think that fuel companies would pass on the full savings to motorists? Chances are you'd still pay $1.30/litre for premium. but now you'd have parts needing more frequent replacement due to the slight corrosive properties of even a 10% ethanol blend. You may be able to replace parts with ethanol tolerant materials - but I don't see why people should be forced into replacing parts through premature wear for a "green" fuel that most likely will cost them the same as regular petrol! If Brazil's 22% blend requires modifications to export Commodores, then there's no way that I can believe that 10% blends are harmless to current petrol cars. The government's half baked effort to get ethanol into our petrol tanks will have limited success as it hasn't been thought through properly.

I think ethanol blends could work with changes in vehicles - but for a straight fuel substitute in CURRENT everyday cars, it has more negatives than positives in my opinion.

Frankly I dont care if any fuel companies pass on any savings to joe average, I can make it myself, and so could anyone here with 2 plastic drums and piece of glass pipe. That alone makes it worthwhile to do the small modifications required to run "PURE" alcohol. So far the list I can make out for my XP is, a neoprene fuel line, replace any rubbers on fuel pickup, replace one rubber gromet on the carbie with a metal one, and drill some holes to make the carbie rich to the level required by ethanol. Hardly big bucks there. Fuel injection is apparently even easier and requires no drilling, as the fuel is injected under pressure. I'm almost certain there is more I'll need to do, and I'll keep researching and find out, but I'm not gonna abandon it just because of paranoia.

As ive said before, but you obviously didnt read, if you run premium unleaded or most normal brands of unleaded, you are ALREADY running 10% ethanol. Has your car exploded yet? Rotted the cylinders out? No? If you have some science or some research you can point to that backs up your point of view, please share. Vague fears arent gonna cut it.

Just because Brazil demands mods to imported commodores doesnt mean its necessarily required. Chalk it up to the 1000's of pointless requirements and laws we live with everyday as well. A bit of paint and a nickel plated fuel line doesnt sound like the engine had to be overhauled to me.

Noone is being forced into buying ethanol, you are welcome to keep using petrol until it hits 5 bucks a litre. Your choices to pay lots of money, instead of researching if ethanol is the boogeyman you "think" it is, dont concern me at all.

This is what concerns me. Alcohols are the ONLY option I've seen so far that allows people to keep their V8's/Big 6's and not have to abandon them(Who you gonna sell them too after all??) to purchase a hybrid electrofarter. If I have to run ethanol to keep my 8, I will do it. If you dont want to, up to you. LPG isnt an option, its a fossil fuel derivative, and will only be cheaper for a finite amount of time.

You are quick to condemn the qld government for promoting the only fuel thats going to keep our fuel guzzlers on the road cheaply, that doesnt seem sane unless you have an alternative you wish to share?

NRG 290 · 12-04-2005, 05:54 PM

Yeah, its definately worth looking into. The possibilities are endless. The whole debate has that ring of someone is bullshitting bigtime and you don't know who. It could be one side or both.

Ethanol is easy to make, i remember doing it in chemistry. How is it produced on a commercial scale? It must still use a fair bit of energy.