Wheels Jan 2010 - F6E v Senator Signature v Merc

b2tf · 11-12-2009, 10:34 PM

Just got the January issue and in it they have a rather good writeup - interestingly though they favour the HSV over the F6E and the Merc beats them both. Has anybody else seen it?

The issue also has a great writeup on the best V8's over the past few years.

1TUFFUTE · 11-12-2009, 11:06 PM

wow thats interesting i mite have a read ..any more you can enlighten us with...who was quickest...cheapest...the most important things..ha

**DJM83** · 12-12-2009, 10:03 AM

Might have to get it for the V8 article

FPV8U · 12-12-2009, 10:03 AM

Merc C63?

b2tf · 12-12-2009, 04:32 PM

E63 AMG is the Merc model included in the test.

I had a bit more time this arvo to read it and had to quote this bit of the article:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wheels Jan 2010 Article

This is the comparison HSV doesn't want you to read. Actually that's not true. This is the comparison HSV doesn't think is relevant.
"FPV is not a rival for HSV" HSV Managing Director Phil Harding told Wheels.
Whoa! Sorry?
After two false starts because HSV pulled its car at the 11th hour, we finally managed to drive the E2 Series Senator Signature back-to-back with FPV's F6E. And, as a performance yardstick, we took along Mercedes-Benz's impressive E63 AMG.
We'll get to the comparison in a moment. But first, why did HSV decide that another Red v Blue rumble was one too many? To find out, we sat down with Harding in his office at HSV HQ in the industrial suburb of Clayton, outside Melbourne. What we invisaged as a 15 minute discussion lasted an hour, and for almost two thirds of that time Harding requested that the voice recorder be turned off. While it was on, we asked him why he didn't want this comparison to happen.
Harding takes his time pondering the question. Moments seem like minutes before his gaze returns and he replies with a question of his own.
"Why does Wheels want to do this comparison?"
Well, because we see HSV and FPV as natural rivals, we tell him. We see these brands as the pinnacle of Australian sports sedans, producing broadly similar machines. We believe there's kudos for being the best.
Harding replies:"only two percent of our customers trade in Ford products, and none of those from the brand Wheels claims is our big rival. Anecdotally, we get people trading in Porsche Boxsters, Volvos, BMW's, Audis, the lot. I've only had one dealer tell me of someone trading in and FPV for a HSV. So, based on that, what is HSV's competition? I put it to you that there's a difference between what we see as our competition and what wheels sees as a benchmark."
Here then, is the crux of the issue. Is Wheels comparing consumer rivals or spiritual rivals?
"I don't see FPV as a competitor" says Harding.
What about a spiritual rival, then?
"I dont have a rivalry".
Oh. Kay. Do you think your heartland sees a rivalry? Is it important to them that your vehicles are better than those from Broadmeadows?
"That's a fair question" says Harding. And that's what we're here to answer, having finally convinced HSV to loan us a car.

An interesting position from HSV based on the above info.

Article is quite good, scores as follows:

FPV F6E:

7/10
Good: Ballistic Engine Rush, Sublime Auto, luxurious interior feel
Bad: Turbo Lag, too-soft ride, lazy rear end

HSV Senator Signature:

8/10
Good: Throttle Response, bellowing engine note, handling, chassis balance
Bad: Interior under-sells the luxury, grumpy gearbox

AMG E63:

9/10
Good: Ferocious;fast;focused;refined - what's not to love?
Bad: Erm... the road noise; slow manual mode, the price

For those interested, 1/4 times:

F6E: 13.78
HSV: 13.63
AMG: 13.25

bangm001 · 12-12-2009, 04:43 PM

FG F6 and turbo lag... BAHAHAHAHAA!!! Nuf said.

RIPGMH · 12-12-2009, 04:51 PM

Who's Nanna is launching these things?

flappist · 12-12-2009, 04:56 PM

No one trades FPVs on HSVs?

I wonder how many trade HSVs on FPVs.......

**Bluehoon** · 12-12-2009, 04:58 PM

What a load of drivel.. Sorry but if that's a segment of the add i consider the choice in not buying wheels money well saved.

4Vman · 12-12-2009, 05:04 PM

Some predictable results, and VERY interesting observations about brand switching...
If what he says is true then we worry too much about what HSV release...

As for 1/4 times well all those sub 13 times you hear about are at drag strips with optimized conditions, super sticky tracks and light loads, these times are more representative of how they'd perform on the street where 99% of people drive these cars.

4Vman · 12-12-2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

No one trades FPVs on HSVs?

I wonder how many trade HSVs on FPVs.......

Not many id suspect.. i think Harding has made an interesting point...

kezzer · 12-12-2009, 05:07 PM

Have to agree, AMG being the best choice, but for the money would much rather a HSV or FPV.

Then comparing the HSV to the F6, give me a V8 anyday.

Really cannot wait for ford to get back into the 8 game, its always the HSV 8 vs the FPV 6 :(
whens the coyote coming out??

**DJM83** · 12-12-2009, 05:28 PM

If i were in the market i dont think id consider the F6E or Senator. I wonder if they will compare the later with the GTE?
Phil Harding is kidding himself if he doesnt think that FPV is competitor to HSV sure there is other options out there but i and other will also agree that HSV and FPV are natural rivals/competitors. The E63 IMO is way out of the league of both (almost certainly used as a yardstick IMO) cars i think mainly due to price, but the performance when compared to the price isnt to bad when comparing the HSV/FPV's to the AMG

**Polyal** · 12-12-2009, 05:30 PM

Phoar fair stretch comparing them even though the 1/4 times are close. The AMG once on road would be double the price no?

Can you get a proper manual with the AMG?

And whats with the turbo lag comment, I thought the I6T came on pretty early.

Its like comparing a 350Z to a GTR. Yeah ok they are both sports cars in the same category but they are worlds apart.

FPV8U · 12-12-2009, 05:36 PM

Hrrrm.. I have seen atleast 2-3 Local HSV's be traded for FPV's and atleast the same number of XR/FPV's at the HSV dealer..

Must have been my local he was talking about, what a load of BS...

The F6 has changed many GM boys into FPV Falcons, much like the LS1,2 & 3 has convinced many Blue Bloods to cross the great divide over the past 10 years.

Nikked · 12-12-2009, 05:39 PM

so HSV and FPV arn't rivals, yet HSV released a cut price model to compete with the GS....hmmm

Deco28 · 12-12-2009, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

so HSV and FPV arn't rivals, yet HSV released a cut price model to compete with the GS....hmmm

They didn't do it for that reason.It was planned well before the GS was announced.

I thought the F6 was meant to be quciker than the LS3

4Vman · 12-12-2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deco28

They didn't do it for that reason.It was planned well before the GS was announced.

I thought the F6 was meant to be quciker than the LS3

The GS was planned well before its release too... they both hear about each others projects well before release....

**DJM83** · 12-12-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deco28

They didn't do it for that reason.It was planned well before the GS was announced.

I thought the F6 was meant to be quciker than the LS3

Its wheels, how could a Ford/FPV be possibly quicker then a Holden/HSV

b2tf · 12-12-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

If i were in the market i dont think id consider the F6E or Senator. I wonder if they will compare the later with the GTE?
Phil Harding is kidding himself if he doesnt think that FPV is competitor to HSV sure there is other options out there but i and other will also agree that HSV and FPV are natural rivals/competitors. The E63 IMO is way out of the league of both (almost certainly used as a yardstick IMO) cars i think mainly due to price, but the performance when compared to the price isnt to bad when comparing the HSV/FPV's to the AMG

The E63 was used as the Yardstick - they do state that in the article. I think it's a bit far fetched to compare 'domestic' models with the likes of an AMG however based on what Phil Harding said I can see why they would do it.

I think just about anybody know has ever heard of FPV/HSV would immediately agree with them being 'rivals' and its been this way long before Harding occupied a seat at HSV.

The F6E is a really nice looking car but out of the three based purely on aesthetics I would pick the Merc, based on performance I would pick the Merc (I am a V8 man) however based on price I would probably pick the F6E.

gtfpv · 12-12-2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

If i were in the market i dont think id consider the F6E or Senator. I wonder if they will compare the later with the GTE?
Phil Harding is kidding himself if he doesnt think that FPV is competitor to HSV sure there is other options out there but i and other will also agree that HSV and FPV are natural rivals/competitors. The E63 IMO is way out of the league of both (almost certainly used as a yardstick IMO) cars i think mainly due to price, but the performance when compared to the price isnt to bad when comparing the HSV/FPV's to the AMG

i dont know mate . i like to think HSV/FPV HOLDEN/FORD A RE RIVALRIES , however , i have only ever owned and driven fords. my sister and her husband only holdens, when i bought the GT never looked compared or considered a clubsport , even though i'd regard that as its natural rival.
my sister just bought a 2008 commadore from hertz, there were xr6's there too none of them got even sat in , only the commadores . my father said to me when he helped them pickup the commadore, hey theres a nice 2008 XR6 down there , why dont you go and grab it !!!!! FOOD for thought .
HARDING , might just be right .

4Vman · 12-12-2009, 05:58 PM

Are HSV and FPV REALLY competitors?

I guess it depends on how strongly you believe in brand tribalism and brand loyalty......

I often think they're more competitors in school yards and pubs than in the marketplace..

BOSHOG · 12-12-2009, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Are HSV and FPV REALLY competitors?

I guess it depends on how strongly you believe in brand tribalism and brand loyalty......

I often think they're more competitors in school yards and pubs than in the marketplace..

i think when it comes to second hand cars there is competition for most people. if i was buying new i wouldnt even consider a HSV, but ive been looking around lately for second hand cars and im open to almost any make and am sad to admit i wont be buying a ford this time around as there is none i like in my price range

**DJM83** · 12-12-2009, 06:08 PM

Spot on Norm but IMO i think they are in the market place as i dont really think there is anything that gives you as much 'value for money' when looking at RWD performance cars.

bangm001 · 12-12-2009, 06:09 PM

Hi guys, Im not speaking on behalf on anyone else, but when I was in the market for the BA back in mid 2005 (XR Turbo) in which i ended up getting the Typhoon, I was at that time also looking at VY SS's and VY1 Clubsports.. One drive of the Typhoon compared to the Holden offerings (I did actually own a VY SS as a company vehicle for a bit), and a good price on a company exec demo made me go for the Typhoon. I cant say that I have driven the 6.2L (I have however driven a VE1 SS 6.0L) and can say that there is no comparison to the Fg F6 to which im now in again thanks to finding a good car which also had a few thousand KMs on her (which again saved me around $15,000.00). I come from owning alot of V8s (most of the cars I have owned have been an 8... Until the I6Turbo. They are a totally different car to drive and once used to the feeling of boost, is very hard to go back to a 8. So i guess getting back onto topic, I and im sure many others did at the time of purchasing compare the Red and Blue oval offerings prior to making their purchases.

Falc'man · 12-12-2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

No one trades FPVs on HSVs?

I wonder how many trade HSVs on FPVs.......

He left himself wide open, didn't he.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Are HSV and FPV REALLY competitors?

I guess it depends on how strongly you believe in brand tribalism and brand loyalty......

I often think they're more competitors in school yards and pubs than in the marketplace..

How do you define "competitor"?

1TUFFUTE · 12-12-2009, 08:42 PM

my direct answer to his statement that all his trade ins recently have been euro performance cars is that people r obviously cutting down on spending the big bucks for there new car upgrade, esspescially in the allmost rescesion we had. hence they go for the cheaper aussie models.

Romulus · 12-12-2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Some predictable results, and VERY interesting observations about brand switching...
If what he says is true then we worry too much about what HSV release...

And more to the point, FPV customer's are astute enough not to cross the floor and buy the HSV product. Phil Harding should be concerned about the lack of interest in his product, rather than seeing it as an endorsement of HSV's product. Many peope step out of the European performance vehicles, poor resale being one of them.

FPV and HSV are natural rivals. To deny so is ignorant. Typical bogan mentality.

**Dave R** · 12-12-2009, 09:28 PM

This Harding bloke needs to be wacked over the head with a yardstick. FPV and HSV will always be rivals... If HSV closed up shop tomorrow, guess where most of their business would go? No, not Porsche or BMW...

4Vman · 12-12-2009, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

If HSV closed up shop tomorrow, guess where most of their business would go? No, not Porsche or BMW...

Second hand HSV's or new SS's.....