Building a new house

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by XRated

The moral of your story, is that you've made a very broad, generalising and defaming statement about Henley.

If the studs are bowed, it's a fault of the timber supplier. It is also up to the framer to check each stud and avoid using bowed timber if they can. Of course this can't always be avoided and will happen in any building.
1. Because it may be a supplier fault
2. Because the builder doing the frame should avoid shoddy beams of timber if they can
3. Because it can be fixed (within reason) and not compromise structural integrity

They have another builder come in, once the roof is done, to either buzz or pack the studs accordingly - amongst other things (I should know, I've done it). Of course, this shouldn't be relied on, and should only be necessarry on a small amount of studs. I've seen some frames need no work at all, and others that the framer should be hung and quartered for if he knew how bad the timber was.

It's also the supervisor's responsibility to check the walls with a straight-edge to make sure there is no significant warpage/discrepancy before things like plaster is hung.

A house is generally built in the same fashion, so any house being built should go through these general steps.

Again, if you get a supervisor who doesn't do their job properly, whether he works for Joe Blo or company XYZ, then the house may be compromised.

If anything, Henley in your example, did the right thing: got shitty when plasterers were stuffing around with the building structure.

I'm just curious, but did you tell the supervisor of the home that the frame was unacceptable for hanging plaster? If he didn't take notice, did you try and tell someone in charge of him - if it was a regular occurence? Why didn't you avoid work from Henley if they are such a terrible company?

Dude are you serious???

Henley are a joke

The quality is lost by the big builders through the chasing of every last cent though the whole building process. They DO NOT care where materals come from, as long as the price on the bottom line is the cheapest. And, having given a mate a hand on a henley frame - i totally back the other guys call about dont build with henley!! 5 or 6 years ago we did a frame for them and they were still using green hardwood!

Mate who subbys to someone with a National builders franchise, said National builders have a contract where all of their timber is supplied through bunnings. The timber is absolute rubbish, most of which would depress me just looking at let alone building someones "dream home" with. The coffers at the top dont care, they lap the stuff up because they get it so cheap. 60% off the shelf price.

I get all of my timber though one of the best quality suppliers around, and it does make a big difference in the end job. And as for only packing/buzzing a few studs in the house or needing no work at all, no work at all? was it a steel frame? What about nailing all the corners at your wall junctions? Depends what your tolerances are i guess.

Trades working for many of the big builders simply can not afford to put the time and effort into getting things spot on because they are getting paid so badly.

Know 1 guy getting $11 per square m to stick frame for a big builder. I get $21.50. So on your average house, He'd make $3k plus roof battens if its iron and i'd make $6k plus roof battens and plus extras for extra valleys, curved walls or raked ceilings, highlight windows, pitched roofs, extra for 2 storey etc. Many of the big ones dont pay extras.

And many of the smaller builders have trades who follow all the way though, i do frame, lock up and fix, plus a lot of other stuff in the process of building. So when i stick the frame, i build it work doors and arcs in the fix out stage, build it to make the lock up easier by putting studs etc in strategic locations, I'll go down and pick timber out of the rack myself for verandahs and pergolas. Build to the standard that i'd be happy to live in myself.

I've seen ceilings in Dennis family homes look like the surf at Bells, and then i've seen the fax on my electricians shed wall stating the from now on, due to the quality of plaster work, all light fittings were to be fitted with 40w max globes, and chinaman hat light shades to keep the light off the ceiling to no one can see it!!!! Dont think you realis how much of this stuff goes on with the big builders!!!! Notice it was cheaper for them to put $2 buck light shades on and reduce globe wattage than to get better plasterers and better materials, and then the low lifes tell the customers that the low wattage globes are part of being a "green smart" energy efficient builder!

Dont think supervisors and inspectors will save the day. A metricon supervisor is on about 45k and know 1 who works about 10 - 12 hours a day and still only gets the bare minimum done because he has so many jobs on the go. Complain, or buck the system and you're out.

Cheap is cheap for a reason, and the sooner people realise that, the sooner there will be less disappointed people in the world. Of you want to build with the cheapest or the biggest, expect to make some sacrifices and compromises for having that extra cash left over, and to be hit with some suprises.





To the guy who is building, do lots of homework, and one of the best ways to choose a builder, is through previous experiences of someone else you know has built and has similar standards and expectations to your self.

Display homes are not always a true reflection of quality. Best test is to see a home someone has lived in for 12 months. Ask them what works and what doesnt, what they like and dont like about it.

Get someone who's had some experience in the intustry and with contracts to look over it before you sign, and make sure everything is covered, and that there arent too many pc items so you know where you stand from the start.


Cheers

Ben

[blueoval]

cheers Ben.

obviously you know what your talking about. I understand the lingo and can imagine your pain. I know for one that it pays to look at the final result with a fine tooth comb and be completely sure of your decision. Homework is a MUST. I will definitely be doing that.


My father was a general builder so I will be getting his advice on what to expect. My mum is a land conveyancer and has done many a investment property so i will ask her expertise on the legals and inclusions. The builder I was thinking of using has been in the trade for about 10 years. I design all of his homes as I draft for him. But have never really inspected the final product. I will do that soon though. I know some of his subbys first hand too so hopefully I can rely on their quality if i personally talk with them.

Its all a learning curve and I am thankful for everyones experienced comments.

Keep the comments coming though.

[gtfpv]

i thought henley went bankrupt . dont tell me they are still trading in other states i havent heard of them for years in nsw's
anyhow . other home builders were doing the same and still are . they just got caught out cause they went too far. all of the builders or moast of the project ones have been sued . for faulty ( dodgy workmanship ) it's because they use supercheap labour . and screw over suppliers . i could name at least 6 .
also one company may use 10 differant framing suppliers . hence ( same house ) multiple quality ratios to buyers . the world revolves around CASH .
NO AMOUNT OF TONGUE WAGGLING DOES ANYTHING
contracts and lawyers do talk if done correctly and agreed upon before signiong . owner must make clear he is prepared to go into dispute and to caught if contract isn't strickly followed .
this is why i suggest upgrading , because the light building laws in a standard contract are substandard . also it pays to line the supervisors pockets with a good $500 cash donation ( in trust ) before building starts with promise of other 1/2 after completion if satisfied . this is what i would do if i done it again !!!!

[atec77]

Originally Posted by blueoval

Im in the process of looking to build me my first home.

I was just wondering which project home builders you have had good experiences with?

What things should I look out for?

The builder i am thinking of building with is Rossdale Homes. Anybody built with this group?

I might suggest you investigate steel frame ( I have built a few) , onner builder or at least management , find some homes you like in the area and ask the owners about them , find the builder and check current work as smaller guys will noramlly build better faster and cleaner , they need the reputation .

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by atec77

I might suggest you investigate steel frame ( I have built a few) , onner builder or at least management , find some homes you like in the area and ask the owners about them , find the builder and check current work as smaller guys will noramlly build better faster and cleaner , they need the reputation .

I worked for SUPALOC/SBS/Weeks Peacock/World Concept/Weeks Macklin as a drafter for 3 years. I saw what they did to many customers. Some of those customers were my personal friends, and frankly, good product or no good product, they were shocking getting time frames sorted. Imagine having too wait over 12months on average to get your slab down, then another 6 months before the frames were delivered on site???? You may get your house finished after 18months, then you get hit with a bill of all the 'supposed' variations they claim you need to pay. Thats how they make their profit. 10-15k extra later, then they hand over the keys. Sometimes the finished product was ordinarily done too. The advertised price is NEVER what you end up paying with these guys unless you want the basic builders range of everything to build an investment property. I saw this on many occasions. The Sales guys are taught to sign people up first and foremost, no questions. get em in the door, grab their cash and tell em to pee off. I saw what happens on the inside, and I couldnt bring myself to go thru that personally. they are very good at marketing, but give false promises. I'll take my chances with a smaller builder thanks.

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by blueoval

cheers Ben.

obviously you know what your talking about. I understand the lingo and can imagine your pain. I know for one that it pays to look at the final result with a fine tooth comb and be completely sure of your decision. Homework is a MUST. I will definitely be doing that.


My father was a general builder so I will be getting his advice on what to expect. My mum is a land conveyancer and has done many a investment property so i will ask her expertise on the legals and inclusions. The builder I was thinking of using has been in the trade for about 10 years. I design all of his homes as I draft for him. But have never really inspected the final product. I will do that soon though. I know some of his subbys first hand too so hopefully I can rely on their quality if i personally talk with them.

Its all a learning curve and I am thankful for everyones experienced comments.

Keep the comments coming though.

Sounds like you've got the right people in your family to point you in the right direction.

Building is so much more than just construction. Its the legal and business side of things that usually is where buyers/builders come unstuck.

Its a business transaction that some builders only see as a business transaction, and some see as a fine quality piece of work, that they are prepared to put their name to and take pride to see standing for decades to come.

[blueoval]

haha, yes that helps schmidty.

I take pride in my work as my name is connected to it, I sort of expect other businesses to do the same.

[gtfpv]

i have seen some project builders that go beyond the call of duty to the finest detail for a perfect home also . it's not all bad . you justy have to get the right ones .

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i have seen some project builders that go beyond the call of duty to the finest detail for a perfect home also . it's not all bad . you justy have to get the right ones .

yep I agree. Its just everyone claims to be THE right one. Got to look past the BS as the proof is in the pudding.

[JPFS1]

I'm going through a similar process right now.

I have purchased the land, got the surveying/soil testing done, spent almost 10K on Architecture and engineering.

Got it all quoted up by the builders i was set on, but they couldn't do it for less than $15,700sq. About 4K per sq over my budget. So i had to say thanks for all the hard work on quoting it all up, but no thanks.

I rubbed the big mass produced builders off the option list a long time ago as i knew of their below par standard, but now my dilema is finding another reputable builder/company.

I have come across inForm design, have had a meeting with them and meeting with them again tonight. They aren't as big as your Metricon/Henley's, they consider themselves to be mid tier. Each of their supervisors only has to look after 5 houses each, compared to the 30-40 that i heard the Metricon reps do etc.

I've got some architect friends that know of people that have built with inForm and they are very happy with the services provided and finished product. They are also very flexible and are happy to work with my existing plans which was important to us as we designed it to meet our needs and it suits the block etc.

Has anybody that is in the industry had dealings with this company?

Regards

p.s Sorry blueoval for hijacking your thread.

[blueoval]

haha no problems JEM. Ask away, just as long as it remains on topic. hehe

Im interested in the responses you get.

[XRated]

Originally Posted by schmidty

Cheap is cheap for a reason, and the sooner people realise that, the sooner there will be less disappointed people in the world. Of you want to build with the cheapest or the biggest, expect to make some sacrifices and compromises for having that extra cash left over, and to be hit with some suprises.

In the end it comes down to what you pay for. I think the problem with people who pay $150k for a new house expect perfection and the best parts/tradesmen around. Unfortunately that's not how it works - in any industry.

It's like buying a new car. If you purchase a Hyundai you expect it to work, but it doesn't guarantee good quality parts, performance and a fine finish.

By the way, $45k, your mate is getting reamed!

Anyway, good luck with your house-building expedition, blueoval. It sounds like you have plenty of good contacts outside of here for some good leads and advice.

[blueoval]

cheers XRated. A lot of pre-planning to do and homework to finish at this stage.

I'll keep this thread up dated as I go along though. That way if any experts on here have some constructive advice to give me, I'll take it all on board.

[Yellow_Festiva]

My parents have just finished building a house with one of the big builders. Here is my advice.

1) INSIST in a finishing date, ie a date where no one else building your home is required to show up to do work. And have a clause where they pay a fee per day for work done after the contracted date. My mum has been waiting 3 months now for a water pump for the tank. Yet they demanded final payment pretty fast when the job wasnt 100% done.

2) Have all discussions on price or any options in writing. In any meeting take a note pad and pen, and jot down whats mentioned ie inclusions and prices. Keep it as a record and adjust the building contract accordingly.

3) Watch as much of the work as possible. We had to pay $x deposit for "additional piering" or sumthing like that for the slab... only if it was needed as we had a mildly reactive soil. people came, slab was poured, no additional piering was needed but you guessed it, the deposit was taken as the builder had said that they did in fact use the additional piering. They had not figured that mum was there and made a point of asking if they did any extra above standard. We are talking 4 digit figures here so if mum wasnt there who would have known???

4) Don't pay the final instalment until the job is finished.

5) Hmmmm if you finally choose a house from a display, spend hours in it, see where space is wasted and where minor additions and alterations can be made. We have a downstairs 'powder room' that has a shower recess measuring 3x5 feet and on the other wall there is a robe thats only 40cm deep. would have been soooo much more better to swap a foot from the shower to the depth of the robe.

6) Walk through the display house. Ask what is and isnt included in the price. Would you believe our double garage has cornaces on the ceilings... but no lights??? (another extra cost)

7) As for flooring.... if you are doing your own thing, ask them to measure and loosly tac the skirting boards down, that way you have a nice fit when you do your tiling or wooden floors.

8) Opt for the biggest water tank... we have a 2400L one that filled in axactly 12 minutes during massive storm. Oh thats right, it overflowed all over the bl00dy place... tel them to NOT BOTHER with the straining mesh that is at the overflow outlet, or at least dont glue it in... its stainless steel and a bugger to remove.

9) Hmmmm im sure there is more, heaps more. You will be amazed that a $200,000 house will have a povo pack of inclusions...

10) Wait as much as possible to paint the joint. They had to fix so many cracks from settlement it was not funny...

11) hmmm don't assume ANYTHING, ask all the stupid questions and get it all in writing.

Cheers

Jason

[blueoval]

some very good point Jason. I will add those issues to my list

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

My parents have just finished building a house with one of the big builders. Here is my advice.

1) INSIST in a finishing date, ie a date where no one else building your home is required to show up to do work. And have a clause where they pay a fee per day for work done after the contracted date. My mum has been waiting 3 months now for a water pump for the tank. Yet they demanded final payment pretty fast when the job wasnt 100% done.

2) Have all discussions on price or any options in writing. In any meeting take a note pad and pen, and jot down whats mentioned ie inclusions and prices. Keep it as a record and adjust the building contract accordingly.

3) Watch as much of the work as possible. We had to pay $x deposit for "additional piering" or sumthing like that for the slab... only if it was needed as we had a mildly reactive soil. people came, slab was poured, no additional piering was needed but you guessed it, the deposit was taken as the builder had said that they did in fact use the additional piering. They had not figured that mum was there and made a point of asking if they did any extra above standard. We are talking 4 digit figures here so if mum wasnt there who would have known???

4) Don't pay the final instalment until the job is finished.

5) Hmmmm if you finally choose a house from a display, spend hours in it, see where space is wasted and where minor additions and alterations can be made. We have a downstairs 'powder room' that has a shower recess measuring 3x5 feet and on the other wall there is a robe thats only 40cm deep. would have been soooo much more better to swap a foot from the shower to the depth of the robe.

6) Walk through the display house. Ask what is and isnt included in the price. Would you believe our double garage has cornaces on the ceilings... but no lights??? (another extra cost)

7) As for flooring.... if you are doing your own thing, ask them to measure and loosly tac the skirting boards down, that way you have a nice fit when you do your tiling or wooden floors.

8) Opt for the biggest water tank... we have a 2400L one that filled in axactly 12 minutes during massive storm. Oh thats right, it overflowed all over the bl00dy place... tel them to NOT BOTHER with the straining mesh that is at the overflow outlet, or at least dont glue it in... its stainless steel and a bugger to remove.

9) Hmmmm im sure there is more, heaps more. You will be amazed that a $200,000 house will have a povo pack of inclusions...

10) Wait as much as possible to paint the joint. They had to fix so many cracks from settlement it was not funny...

11) hmmm don't assume ANYTHING, ask all the stupid questions and get it all in writing.

Cheers

Jason

Read read and read again.

Althought some of the stuff jason pointed out are handy, think how many houses the builder has built, and how many contracts they've drawn up.
They know all the loop holes, and all the tricks to make things work in their favour.

Common 1 to watch for. In a standard contract, the Master Builders and HIA both specify that unless stated otherwise, the weekly payment for every week the job runs outside the contract date is $200. Supposedly to cover basic rent. I've seen 1 builder i was doing some work for write the weekly payment down to $100. It was a 100+ square home, with a contracted construction time of 12 months. There were a few hiccups along the way with the slab to start with - clients weren't happy with the colour of the agregate in the slab (was to be polished) and then a huge amount of steel work was under engineered and bowed as soon as it was out up. Slab took 3 months of fighting with the concretor to sort out, was a $90,000 slab, which in the end had a 75mm skin poured over the top. The steel was the fault of the engineer, which was used at the request and recommendation of the client.

The house has gone over the agreed finish date by about 12 months, and as the builder much to his advantage smartly changed the penalty payment to $100pw, it's only put him $5,000 out of pocket, but the clients are over 12 months late getting into their house. This is a $1,000,000, so the builders margin is probably somewhere around $200,000, so its loose change.

Biggest laugh, the clients, the guy is a top QC, and his wife is a solicitor or along those lines. So for a QC to be screwed by an itty bitty littl building contract shows that little things can catch anyone out in a big way if you're not careful.



Another tip, please dont be one of those pain in the ar$# clients who watches every nail go in, and every brick being laid. You'll find it will be more of a disadvantage to you than you think. You'll become known among the trades as a troublemaker, and you'll get no extra favours. Show up every now and then and a a genuine look around, dont pick someones unfinished work to pieces, and have a general chat and you'll find peoplevery willing to help you out.

We've charged troublesome clients a couple of hundred bucks to put in nogging for surround speakers, or to change a door size, and clients who've been generally interested and friendly we've put in extra walls, shadow boxes, moved windows, extra shelves. A friendly chat, and a slab on a friday goes a long way!

[normxb]

Originally Posted by XRated

I didn't realise FF.au was so full of experienced builders! I find it amusing how so many people sprout on about getting a "small guy." He has a reputation to keep? Doesn't a massive building company have a reputation to keep, too?

Maybe in the city , but in a small country town , word spreads FAST , the "Small Guy" we got to do our extension has been in the business for 30 years . All his frames (Cyprus) are built "on site" any sub-standard timber is returned and he spends 90% of his time with a Level and square in his hand , the walls he had to "match up to" had anything up to 75mm lean (as I said , very old house) and there was "No patching up" everything fitted perfectly . If there was a 10mm variance in the roof battens (for the gyprock) , they were packed up level , no problems what lights you use there . He did the job from start to finish (no subbies except the Bricky & Plumber who's a neighbour) .

When the Council Inspector came around for an Inspection , we ended up talking F1 and Bathurst , I asked him if he'd like to look at the rest of the extension , his answer " No , if CXX did the job , there's no need to *, but if XXX Homes did it , I'd go over it with a "fine tooth comb" . (Not a good reputation ).

*That's experience and reputation . So I think a lot depends on where you live ,

[blueoval]

Well I plan to build in the metro area in an estate where there is big competition.

Like I have mentioned, I will do my homework, then go on my gut feelings based on my findings.

[Pumpit]

Originally Posted by schmidty

A friendly chat, and a slab on a friday goes a long way!

You go no idea how right you are about a slab and a friendly attitude. Dad is a bricky and tells me about home owners all the time. If you bring your nitpicker gloves along you'll find a bag of sand in your main sewer line!

[gtfpv]

well i wish i delivered the carton of warm vb after the brickies finished rather than before . they left the front of the house till last . i knew they'd finish it next day so i took a carton there in the morning for a good job , and thought i'd insure a good frontage . in the arvo . i went to have a look . there was empty stubbies all over the yard . and the front wall to this day the front bricks aren't as well presented as the sides and back DOH !!!!! bagging was fairly rough compared to the rest of the house . ( they bagged as they bricked ) oh well . live and learn i suppose .

[XRchic]

Wow! Reading this is all really scary!

We bought a house that was about a year old when we bought it and I have no idea what builder did it. Everything looks ok though. How do you tell if the house is steel framed? We sort of think ours might be.

Shav, where are you building? Congrats mate, sounds like you have it all sorted! We were going to build too, but the wait was going to be soooo long so we decided to buy instead.

Good luck!

Jac

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by XRchic

Wow! Reading this is all really scary!

We bought a house that was about a year old when we bought it and I have no idea what builder did it. Everything looks ok though. How do you tell if the house is steel framed? We sort of think ours might be.

Shav, where are you building? Congrats mate, sounds like you have it all sorted! We were going to build too, but the wait was going to be soooo long so we decided to buy instead.

Good luck!

Jac

Well at this stage Jac. We havent settled completely on a location, but it will definitely be south as we like the area.

The locations we like are 'the point' estate in old noarlunga of barcelona drive, but they have a lot of stipulations and encumberances to their blocks. This will be our last resort.

Other than that we are looking at large properties which have a house already on it but on a large block of land so we can subdivide with the intention of building our own house on it and sell of the other blocks, which then will help reduce the outlay of the mortgage. Just means we need rather large equity to help do that which we have contacts for.

We want to keep things on the move if possible as everything down my way is getting snapped up very quickly.

Only way I can think of you seeing what your frame work is made of is getting up into the roof via the manhole and looking in there.

[XRchic]

Originally Posted by blueoval

Well at this stage Jac. We havent settled completely on a location, but it will definitely be south as we like the area.

The locations we like are 'the point' estate in old noarlunga of barcelona drive, but they have a lot of stipulations and encumberances to their blocks. This will be our last resort.

Other than that we are looking at large properties which have a house already on it but on a large block of land so we can subdivide with the intention of building our own house on it and sell of the other blocks, which then will help reduce the outlay of the mortgage. Just means we need rather large equity to help do that which we have contacts for.

We want to keep things on the move if possible as everything down my way is getting snapped up very quickly.

Only way I can think of you seeing what your frame work is made of is getting up into the roof via the manhole and looking in there.

Hey I know exactly where Barcelona Drive is. A friend of mine lived in a bunch of units on that road. She didnt like the area though, and there were a lot of bogans who hung around late at night causing trouble on that road, as they often came from Colonades... In the end it was too close to Hackham for her liking I think and she sold up and moved away. She said the schools in the area were terrible too... but this was probably 10 years ago and things may have improved. She also said it was too far from town to travel - that is one of the reasons we didnt look that far south as well, because it is much quicker to get to town from Mt Barker by far, and the area is a bit nicer. Have you looked at Flagstaff Pines, at the top of O'Halloran Hill? That is a really nice spot too!

Hmmm small block? I wouldnt subdivide my block in a fit (although it wouldnt be big enough for subdividing I dont think - 851m2), I like the nice open spaces and I hate crammed in little houses which have backyards of a metre or so... there are subdivisions around here in Mt Barker that are like 400m2 and the back of the houses are right on the back fence and every time I see them I think of greedy developers trying to get every last cent out of people.

The downside is having to look after the garden if you dont like it. Im not a green thumb at ALL but I dont mind doing it here and there, and it is nice to sit out there and have a BBQ or let the kids play... and the gardener does the worst of the work LOL.

I hope it all goes well mate! Building a house would have to rank up there as one of the most stressful things to do I would say, especially given the info in this thread!!!

Oh and we were wondering about the metal frames because Cam stuck a magnet on the inside of the entrance to the lounge and it stuck there!!! LOL.

[blueoval]

LOL @ the magnet. Yes that will do it. But to confirm, just poke you head thru the manhole and have a peek with ya torch.

Im not one for high maintenance gardens on big blocks unfortunately Jac. I would have a concrete garden if it were up to me. I dont mind some plants if they look after themselves. But not a green thumb at ALL!

Im looking at a block which is 2400m2 with a 6 bedroom home on it already. So at this stage IF I decide to go partnerships with my sister in law with this, we will subdivide whats there and try and recoupe the large outlay as quickly as possible. Then rent out the existing home and get some regular income back to help with the mortgage.

I agree with homes being stressful, but Im trying to look at it from a positive outlook, and an exciting opportunity. Being in the building trade already, I sort of know what to expect and hopefully it will calm me down in times needed.

[XRchic]

Originally Posted by blueoval

LOL @ the magnet. Yes that will do it. But to confirm, just poke you head thru the manhole and have a peek with ya torch.

Im not one for high maintenance gardens on big blocks unfortunately Jac. I would have a concrete garden if it were up to me. I dont mind some plants if they look after themselves. But not a green thumb at ALL!

Im looking at a block which is 2400m2 with a 6 bedroom home on it already. So at this stage IF I decide to go partnerships with my sister in law with this, we will subdivide whats there and try and recoupe the large outlay as quickly as possible. Then rent out the existing home and get some regular income back to help with the mortgage.

I agree with homes being stressful, but Im trying to look at it from a positive outlook, and an exciting opportunity. Being in the building trade already, I sort of know what to expect and hopefully it will calm me down in times needed.

Sounds great! And having worked in the area, that is ALWAYS going to be a massive help in that kind of thing... especially in real estate! Priceless really!

That is a MASSIVE block, so yeah you could subdivide that and not really be badly off.

I assure you, I am NOT a green thumb - I kill most plants, no matter what they are, Im famous for it. But for some reason I grow weeks really well, nice and strong and healthy! But I dont like the concrete garden thing - like a bit of nature around I guess. When you have kids, a nice big leefy back yard seems to alleviate a lot of boredom too.

Ive been thinking about buying an investment property in Mt Barker actually since the prices up here are going mad at the moment... be nice to have someone to help me pay my mortgage! LOL.