Regonal areas - ir laws hitting quick

[KEV EB XR8]

Most may not see the country nsw news but my brother in law is one of the people affected, as his at cowra abattoirs. 29 put off - may reapply for $180 per week less.

As most rural communities have less population, jobs in some occupations are hard to retain staff, so most are looked after pretty well if they are worth it.

The larger populated regional centres have numbers and are deeming to use these changes to advantage already it seems, given that most primary -secondary industries are regional, less household income to spend at the end user outlets may lead to job losses and seems it all leads to trouble imo.

As with the implementation of GST, the ir laws infastucture seems to be not researched thoroughly for the after affects ?

[gtfpv]

well serves them bludgers right!!!!! its about time the IR LAWS CAME IN TO HELP THESE BUSINESS PEOPLE from being ripped off from gready union employees .
(((((( """"" just wanted to see what it feels like to type a load of 'BS' here like some of the people here . """"" )))))
it makes me feel bad so i'm obviously LEFT WING.

[Jeld-Wen Falcon]

Its a joke, one of my mates was hired a few weeks back after looking for a job for 5months just out of yr12 and got sacked on Thursday.

Im not sure wether to name them, because I would probably get in trouble, but id love to.

[MoreHPformyXR6]

This is a hard one as the company decided not to go to court its still a grey area to see if the case would stand up. But with the new IR laws i think it would. The govt said on the news tonight that these laws still protect employees that the biggest load of BS i have ever heard. It never went to court so how can they say that. (We need a test case to go to court to clear alot of the grey areas) The current goverment is giveing out mixed messages on one hand they are saying its great for the economy & employers. On the other hand they are saying this is politically sensetive & its only just started slow down & use the new laws responsably. Is that another way of saying if you are going to sack somepeople maybe wait another 12months when the heat has simmered?

[notty1978]

my work has cut all over time out i have lost around $200 a week
i was told if i dont like it go

[Philbie]

ahh, now for the employers view...

NOW - I CAN

* sack workers that don't actually do anything without the fear of god instilled in me.

* Build my business, knowing i can deal with the harder times if required, without going without a wage myself to pay others.

*find the "right" staff for my business and pay them accordingly.

*Teach new people a skill who might actually be interested.

I understand peoples views from an employee's side - but please give some thought to the honest and caring business owners who have struggled through these times because we have had no flexability to hire and fire.

cheers,

Philbie

[svo347]

Originally Posted by Philbie

ahh, now for the employers view...

With all due respect mate ......

Nothing stopped you before .........

What just sack afew people to make the difference..........

Who does the hiring for you, couldnt you find the right people first up, or train them.............

Why hire them if they dont.........................

I understand peoples views from an employee's side - but please give some thought to the honest and caring business owners who have struggled through these times because we have had no flexability to hire and fire.
honest n caring, sounds like hmmmm how can I make more money for ME..........................

cheers,

Philbie

Is that how it sounds????

[opto]

Let see , abuse the privalige of hiring and firing employees.

Pay less so employees are just getting thru or struggling ( the working poor)

No job stability so can't plan to EVER own a home, can't afford to feed and cloathe the family.

Get used to the saying " I might as well stay on the dole"

This IR ruling only works for the rich Workchoices, for the rich, no choices for the working poor.

Your rights are now gone.

Look at how it is being abused already.

If you work for an employer and think Workchoices is good you are misinformed

[SpoolMan]

Regardless of what any ones views are, everyone deserves a fair go, this what Australia stands for, a fair go for all.
NO ONE deserves to turn up to work and be sacked and told, he can keep his job here and work for $200 less a week when only 2 weeks ago there wasn't a problem doing that job for that wage, its just madness its blackmail.
Thank God for once the Federal government has stepped in and told this employer he must give them there jobs back, as there investigation found the employer has acted dishonestly.
Interesting tho the government wont say if the employer broke the law, there just trying to simmer things down until the heat is out of these night mare IR laws, then when its all quiet, the boot can be sunk back in to honest tax paying people looking for a bit of stability so they can continue to pay there house off and live the Aussie dream.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by Philbie

I understand peoples views from an employee's side - but please give some thought to the honest and caring business owners who have struggled through these times because we have had no flexability to hire and fire.

Im with you mate, my parents have a small business, and have put themselves 2nd to their employee's several times, only to have mud thrown on there face.

I do Feel for anyone who loses there job, or gets a huge pay cut due to a power hungry Boss, but there are two sides to every story, and i have experienced it 1st hand from both sides.

[FPV8U]

Get used to the saying " I might as well stay on the dole"

As an Australian i would be ashamed if that went through my head at any stage, personally i would rather have a job and make less than someoe on the dole, than be on it!

Pay less so employees are just getting thru or struggling

Or keep paying them the same and struggle yourself?

In a big company i understand what you are saying but in a smaller business it's either look after yourself or look after you staff when things get tight, and your in busness to make money not friends!

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

As an Australian i would be ashamed if that went through my head at any stage, personally i would rather have a job and make less than someoe on the dole, than be on it!



Or keep paying them the same and struggle yourself?

In a big company i understand what you are saying but in a smaller business it's either look after yourself or look after you staff when things get tight, and your in busness to make money not friends!

IF you have to go on the dole you are in great financial trouble . if a job pays less or equivilant to the dole you are in dire straits. and will lose everything including your sense of being. if i was an employer i would do everything to stay in business . but if that meant giving employers hardship then the business wouldnt be worth having . and i would probably go down with them. i couldnt imagine being more valued on benifits then working for somebody who cant afford to pay you. or doesnt value you enough to give you food and a roof. plenty of bosses like this will go down quickly maybe with bullets.

[FPV8U]

IF you have to go on the dole you are in great financial trouble . if a job pays less or equivilant to the dole you are in dire straits. and will lose everything including your sense of being.

Unfortunitly i don't think there are many people actually in this situation who arein the system i have no problem seeing people who need help getting it but!

I cannot stand people who would rather sit at home on there @$$ than work because they "Might as well stay on the dole" for whatever lame reason they give...

[ClevlndStemer]

Originally Posted by notty1978

my work has cut all over time out i have lost around $200 a week
i was told if i dont like it go

been there and still doing it. The company I work for did that early last year. It isn't something new either, I know many people who have had in their contracts to work compulsary overtime but not paid for it. This includes weekend work.

[Bucknaked]

Government ha stepped in and forced the company to reinstate the workers on the pay they were earning

[Bluefreak]

I see where you're coming from Philbie... I have close friends who are trying to run a business who I know won't take extreme advantage of these new laws but will find it easier to run their business for the same reasons you state...

Originally Posted by Philbie

ahh, now for the employers view...

NOW - I CAN

* sack workers that don't actually do anything without the fear of god instilled in me.
Unfair dismissal cases cost a fortune...

* Build my business, knowing i can deal with the harder times if required, without going without a wage myself to pay others.
Being able to negotiate with workers to get through tough times and reward them afterward for their consideration & help...

*find the "right" staff for my business and pay them accordingly.
[B]Anyone can lie well to get a job, doesn't mean they can actually do it.../B]

*Teach new people a skill who might actually be interested.
You need the ability to find people with a genuine interest before you can really teach them...


I understand peoples views from an employee's side - but please give some thought to the honest and caring business owners who have struggled through these times because we have had no flexability to hire and fire.

cheers,

Philbie

[Philbie]

Originally Posted by Bluefreak

I see where you're coming from Philbie... I have close friends who are trying to run a business who I know won't take extreme advantage of these new laws but will find it easier to run their business for the same reasons you state...

Yes, these are issues that i have had to deal with also.....


In regard to Small business...


I totally disagree with sacking workers due to these laws, and feel that this now paints a bad picture for good employers.

money cutting, overtime cuts along with many other things are bad business practice atm due to these IR laws. They send a BAD message to employees and companies should be pulled up for this type of behaviour.

Fair employers, who pay good wages and treat staff as they wish to be treated have deserved this cut for years, and they (me included) will continue to offer long time and well rewarded employment to the right people, whilst being able to remove staff who might not fit the picture. This in turn will (slowly) help develop small business and enable them to grow and feel confident to employ more staff in the future.

[Philbie]

Originally Posted by svo347

Is that how it sounds????

no, that actually sounds like some other peoples approach to the situation, and also a un-educated guess at how to deal with it.

For those of us with morals, and who care about our staff as well as our business, these things are actually a little harder to deal with than that approach.


cheers,

Philbie

[banarcus]

A well looked after worker will always respect their boss. I've worked for small and large business and I've worked with bludgers and hard workers. I used negoitate my own wage from the time I was a 2nd year apprentice because I had a good boss. He even threw in tickets to Bathurst(in the pits, 2 nights) but he wouldn't think twice if you were a bludger. I guess I was blessed for having a good boss.

[EBII Fairmont]

Originally Posted by banarcus

A well looked after worker will always respect their boss.

This is very true, as my boss has done plenty of favours for me. That includes paying me for not even working. That never came out of holiday or sick pay.

But as it has already been proven, there are going to be employers who are going to use the system to their advantage and screw their employess over. They may as well reduce the minimum wage while we are there.

I have pretty much come to the understanding that this system is just every man for himself, and if your not one of the head honcho's in the organisation, you will most likely will be screwed one way or another.

The only part of the new IR laws I agree on, is being able to sack someone for being slack and reasons along this line. Not because there are a clash of characters.

But I plan on one day getting my own stock brocking or financial planning company started and this way I will make my own rules.

[flappist]

Convincing a left wing union zealot to believe that there are bludgers who rort the system is like trying to convince a born again religeous nut that it is possible that the world was not actually made is seven days.

They are right, you are wrong, discussion ends.

I have been involved in three unfair dismissal situations.

The first was after 3 last chances and pep talks a lady I had in sales who did not even make close to 1 weeks budget in 3 months (while the other two made it easily) firstly tried unfair because she was not trained (did the same training as the others) and then tried discrimination (she was a philipina but it fell over because her manager was ATSI).
She was just a bludger who after the smoke cleared (she lost) I investigated and found she had done it several times before.
Cost to me excluding wasted wages, about $4k in legal fees.

The second was a person who falsified their documents including a fake degree. They withdrew after I found out about the fake degree and threatened to dob them to the University.
Cost to me apart from wasted wages, $500

The third was stealing components but we could not catch him. He tried it on and again I got lucky when one of his "private customers" wanted a stolen PC fixed under warranty. Unfortunately no serial numbers but the threat of the law was enough to send him packing.

Now I know that the socialist do gooders will say that you can sack people for stealing or fraud but unless there is absolute proof you are buggered (until now).

I run my own show, if you want to play with me I will give you money.
If you do not want to play anymore then you are free to do so.
NOW IF I WANT TO STOP I AM FREE TO DO SO.

Originally Posted by gtfpv

plenty of bosses like this will go down quickly maybe with bullets.

So if something does not suit your political viewpoint you hint at violence with weapons?
You know some people might misinterpret that as a terrorist manifesto?

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by flappist

Convincing a left wing union zealot to believe that there are bludgers who rort the system is like trying to convince a born again religeous nut that it is possible that the world was not actually made is seven days.

They are right, you are wrong, discussion ends.

I have been involved in three unfair dismissal situations.

The first was after 3 last chances and pep talks a lady I had in sales who did not even make close to 1 weeks budget in 3 months (while the other two made it easily) firstly tried unfair because she was not trained (did the same training as the others) and then tried discrimination (she was a philipina but it fell over because her manager was ATSI).
She was just a bludger who after the smoke cleared (she lost) I investigated and found she had done it several times before.
Cost to me excluding wasted wages, about $4k in legal fees.

The second was a person who falsified their documents including a fake degree. They withdrew after I found out about the fake degree and threatened to dob them to the University.
Cost to me apart from wasted wages, $500

The third was stealing components but we could not catch him. He tried it on and again I got lucky when one of his "private customers" wanted a stolen PC fixed under warranty. Unfortunately no serial numbers but the threat of the law was enough to send him packing.

Now I know that the socialist do gooders will say that you can sack people for stealing or fraud but unless there is absolute proof you are buggered (until now).

I run my own show, if you want to play with me I will give you money.
If you do not want to play anymore then you are free to do so.
NOW IF I WANT TO STOP I AM FREE TO DO SO.


So if something does not suit your political viewpoint you hint at violence with weapons?
You know some people might misinterpret that as a terrorist manifesto?

good point there flappist i too hate a bludger and a rorter. this is the only part of the "WORK CHOICES" laws that i support. however i thought people can and do get sacked every day for these low acts of uselessnes by an employee . even the liberal govt, tried to explain the recent sackings on people since these laws came in as a comparison to previous numerous daily sackings that occur daily . "but i thought we needed these laws to make it possible for employers to sack people"!!!!!!!!
flappis t i hate dole bludgers and people who take advantage of employers trust.
but 5 years ago my company canned all the OT . employed contracters to do the extra work load created by this .
the employees all specialised tradesman 80 % of them started there own business outside . doubling there earnings. lots of them now come to work tired and you guessed it " bludge". they have no interest in the company whatsoever . and no morale or job satisfaction
who created this problem.?????
you know that i am anti guns and weapons . but dont tell me people dont have stress problems like financial, health ,marriage . sick children etc etc . and deaths . lots of people at least console in the fact that at least they are doing the best they can and working to do thier bit . somepeople will go to work and find they are dissmissed because of the late day they came in yesterday for a sick child . and then be told re-sign here for less than they can live on . say $200 less which means they are now going to perhaps lose the only thing they thought they had . ( job security) and snap. i personally know some people that would be capable of revenge especially if they have nothing left. twisted yeah . underskilled yeah . but doesnt mean it aint gonna happen.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

good point there flappist i too hate a bludger and a rorter. this is the only part of the "WORK CHOICES" laws that i support. however i thought people can and do get sacked every day for these low acts of uselessnes by an employee . even the liberal govt, tried to explain the recent sackings on people since these laws came in as a comparison to previous numerous daily sackings that occur daily . "but i thought we needed these laws to make it possible for employers to sack people"!!!!!!!!
flappis t i hate dole bludgers and people who take advantage of employers trust.
but 5 years ago my company canned all the OT . employed contracters to do the extra work load created by this .
the employees all specialised tradesman 80 % of them started there own business outside . doubling there earnings. lots of them now come to work tired and you guessed it " bludge". they have no interest in the company whatsoever . and no morale or job satisfaction
who created this problem.?????
you know that i am anti guns and weapons . but dont tell me people dont have stress problems like financial, health ,marriage . sick children etc etc . and deaths . lots of people at least console in the fact that at least they are doing the best they can and working to do thier bit . somepeople will go to work and find they are dissmissed because of the late day they came in yesterday for a sick child . and then be told resign here for less than they can live on . say $200 less which means they are now going to perhaps lose the only thing they thought they had . ( job security) and snap. i personally know some people that would be capable of revenge especially if they have nothing left. twisted yeah . underskilled yeah . but doesnt mean it aint gonna happen.

Looks like we both agree and disagree with the same parts. Unfortunately there will always be those who take advantage.
It is a complex world. I used to be in the ETU and during 1984 there were huge strikes because of a fight between the union and management.
What happened, the power went off, innocent people were caught up in the mess and gave Joh the mandate to stomp it into the ground.
Stupid union, what they SHOULD have done is refused to connect, repair or read the meters. Cut off the money flow. But that would have take time and the bullies thought they had enough clout but they were wrong.
N.B. We were lazy bludgers big time.....

The first rule of politics, the people will support a worthy cause unless it results in:
Their wife/kids whinging.
Their TV stopping
and
Their beer getting warm.......

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by flappist

The first rule of politics, the people will support a worthy cause unless it results in:
Their wife/kids whinging.
Their TV stopping
and
Their beer getting warm.......

rule of politics: you take $10 out of the pocket of the average working man every week, he will kick and scream and vote you out, people will put up with some crap, once you take $10 out of someones pay there mood changes a lot.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

rule of politics: you take $10 out of the pocket of the average working man every week, he will kick and scream and vote you out, people will put up with some crap, once you take $10 out of someones pay there mood changes a lot.

So true.....

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by flappist

Looks like we both agree and disagree with the same parts. Unfortunately there will always be those who take advantage.
It is a complex world. I used to be in the ETU and during 1984 there were huge strikes because of a fight between the union and management.
What happened, the power went off, innocent people were caught up in the mess and gave Joh the mandate to stomp it into the ground.
Stupid union, what they SHOULD have done is refused to connect, repair or read the meters. Cut off the money flow. But that would have take time and the bullies thought they had enough clout but they were wrong.
N.B. We were lazy bludgers big time.....

The first rule of politics, the people will support a worthy cause unless it results in:
Their wife/kids whinging.
Their TV stopping
and
Their beer getting warm.......

agreed . i see it from both sides too.its the big companies though that have the most power, these are also the most disconnected to people .so i just hope as you do that these big government supported companies dont try to increase profits by driving down earnings (it wont work ) but tell a bean counter that.
i dont want to see big business take over workers rights due to profiteering and screw small businesses over forcing them to compete. and thats how i see it .i guess that is why i am left wing . i also thionk though that i am held back to some degree by fellow underskilled employees being overpaid. but still i am doing well . and they can have some comforts in life aswell . this i think keeps the majority happy. i guess we will wait and see how it pans out.
unions and some rotton employees taking advantage of the system are equally to blame for this though. but i preffered to look at them as minorities. leaches of the system . perhaps it may go full swing the other way now. hope not.