Hundreds of guns seized in NSW raid

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by Duke

Off topic but following the theme; I'm trying to recall a statement made to me by the president of my gun club whilst I was in the process of joining... "As far as sports and injuries go, shooting has never had a fatality and only 1 injury, which was not caused by a gun"
Assuming it's valid - Not many sports could boast a record like that - possibly chess?

I shoot IPSC (for non-shooters, that's a very fast pistol & exciting pistol match) and safety is always paramount but even I think that's a big call. There's at least one guy in Victoria who has shot his leg while holstering a gun at a range but shooting does have a very safe record especially when you compare it with football and fishing.

[XlR8TED]

Originally Posted by flappist

There is a lot of "politics" whenever guns are mentioned. Just look at some of the replies here.

Like yours?

I generally stay away from gun threads, because neither side will ever concede no matter how much debate goes on. However, the analogy of cars being killer weapons that should be banned, which inevitably comes out in every gun thread anywhere on the internet, is completely absurd. The purpose of a gun is to kill. That's it. People may use them for target shooting, but the gun was invented to kill people. Cars aren't made to kill people, it's simply a very unfortunate consequence of driving that sometimes people will have accidents.

That all said, I don't really have much of a problem with the way our laws are here. It's fairly difficult to get a license like some have pointed out - and I'm glad it is. Ensures that only proper enthusiasts will get one.

The gun culture in the states scares the living sh!t out of me. It's where most of my anti-gun sentiment comes from...

(for the record, I have been target shooting quite a few times. I've shot a .22 and the F-88 Steyr)

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by XRSex

Like yours?

I generally stay away from gun threads, because neither side will ever concede no matter how much debate goes on. However, the analogy of cars being killer weapons that should be banned, which inevitably comes out in every gun thread anywhere on the internet, is completely absurd. The purpose of a gun is to kill. That's it. People may use them for target shooting, but the gun was invented to kill people. Cars aren't made to kill people, it's simply a very unfortunate consequence of driving that sometimes people will have accidents.

That all said, I don't really have much of a problem with the way our laws are here. It's fairly difficult to get a license like some have pointed out - and I'm glad it is. Ensures that only proper enthusiasts will get one.

The gun culture in the states scares the living sh!t out of me. It's where most of my anti-gun sentiment comes from...

(for the record, I have been target shooting quite a few times. I've shot a .22 and the F-88 Steyr)

Some would say the gun was invented to defend people, defend our rights, defend our country, defend our families and many families who lived with guns for the last couple hundred years.

If guns kill people then mine must be broken, it's never killed anything.

You say that cars weren't invented to kill people yet more people die in this country due to cars than guns.

[Fev]

id rather everyone had big knives and rapiers then guns. although im sure OHS would be a big problem lol

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by Fev

id rather everyone had big knives and rapiers then guns. although im sure OHS would be a big problem lol

I'd rather everyone had the right, and the tools, to defend themselves and their family against unwarranted attacks.

It seems slightly ridiculous that we can't even carry non-lethal means of defense in this country. No pepper spray or mace, no tasers, no collapsible batons or even passive defenses such as stab proof or bullet proof vests.

Those who break the law have all the advantages.

[Duke]

I have a "hillbilly" in-law who has rather skewed visions of the world and life in general, probably due to the vast qty of alcohol and various substances coursing through his veins... but he congratulated me on having a way to defend my family against the onslaught of migrants who apparently want to take my house (?).

He thinks it's fabulous that I have weapons.

I think he's a weapon! and I'm glad he doesn't have a license.

We all have different views of course, but it's the fringe dwellers that worry me most.

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by blownvn

I'd rather everyone had the right, and the tools, to defend themselves and their family against unwarranted attacks.

Yeah, why not. It works a treat in other countries.

There are quiet a few people walking around that have gotten through their lives fine without the need to use a firearm for defense. If every second house on the street had a few handguns stashed away inside how long do you think that would last?

EDIT: I'm not against people holding firearm licenses or owning guns, i just think the 'give us weapons to defend ourselves' argument is a little short sighted.

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by ken2903

Yeah, why not. It works a treat in other countries.

There are quiet a few people walking around that have gotten through their lives fine without the need to use a firearm for defense. If every second house on the street had a few handguns stashed away inside how long do you think that would last?

Actually it does work fine in other countries. Take Switzerland for example where they have compulsory military service and you take your army rifles and pistols home with you.

Obviously you think America's a fools paradise, but the truth is that the areas where crime is the highest (New York, Washington DC, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc) have the strictest gun laws. The places with the least restrictive guns laws seem to be the safest and those states that now allow conceal weapons licenses have experienced a drop in crime rates since passing CCW laws.
No US state which has passed CCW laws has gone back because they've been proven to work. Before each state passed those laws there were cries that blood would run in the streets and that people would shoot each other over the most trivial things but it simply hasn't happened.

Sure there's plenty of people who have never had to defend themselves against anything, yet there are also plenty of people who are dead because they didn't have the means to defend themselves.

I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Duke: Yeah there's some guys who are pretty out there, but generally they make themselves known to police for various reasons and that disqualifies them from legally owning a gun. I certainly don't believe we're about to be invaded by the northern hordes but we certainly have enough evil doers right here in Australia. Extremist exist in all walks of life.
Plenty of people don't give a about your life or your possessions and they'll take either just because they can.

[HLC]

Originally Posted by blownvn

I shoot IPSC (for non-shooters, that's a very fast pistol & exciting pistol match) and safety is always paramount but even I think that's a big call. There's at least one guy in Victoria who has shot his leg while holstering a gun at a range but shooting does have a very safe record especially when you compare it with football and fishing.

im an IPSC shooter as well. did you shoot at the NSW state titles in Albury back in march?

i heard about that bloke that shot himself when holstering too. Went through his leg and missed pretty much everything apparently.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by XRSex

Like yours?

I generally stay away from gun threads, because neither side will ever concede no matter how much debate goes on. However, the analogy of cars being killer weapons that should be banned, which inevitably comes out in every gun thread anywhere on the internet, is completely absurd. The purpose of a gun is to kill. That's it. People may use them for target shooting, but the gun was invented to kill people. Cars aren't made to kill people, it's simply a very unfortunate consequence of driving that sometimes people will have accidents.

That all said, I don't really have much of a problem with the way our laws are here. It's fairly difficult to get a license like some have pointed out - and I'm glad it is. Ensures that only proper enthusiasts will get one.

The gun culture in the states scares the living sh!t out of me. It's where most of my anti-gun sentiment comes from...

(for the record, I have been target shooting quite a few times. I've shot a .22 and the F-88 Steyr)

How do you feel about the gun culture in Switzerland? Every house has a machine gun and there is almost no gun crime.
Or Japan? Guns have been banned outright since 1945 yet they have thousands of gun deaths every year.

Like most antigunners you have very little actual knowlege of the problem.

Even with your support of current laws in Australia are you aware the the firearms types that have been used in over 90% of murders are freely available to any person whereas the restricted items were banned due to a few incidents. Of course not.

I hope that your closed myopic mindset is restricted to guns because if people like you decide that due to a couple of media beat up tragedies involving idiots (263km/h in a 200SX for example) that turbo and V8 engines are not needed in passenger cars because they are too dangerous then this forum would get rather boring wouldn't it?

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by HLC

im an IPSC shooter as well. did you shoot at the NSW state titles in Albury back in march?

i heard about that bloke that shot himself when holstering too. Went through his leg and missed pretty much everything apparently.

Yes I did.

The leg incident is how I heard it too.

[HLC]

Originally Posted by blownvn

Yes I did.

The leg incident is how I heard it too.

PM sent (in a minute) lol

[HOEBAG]

i'm not sure what side i'm on until i see clear figures on my screen.
i like the idea of being able to protect my (future) family
But i'd hate to see my house get broken into and noticing my gun missing. knowing that theres another potential threat staring at me when i'm walking down the backstreets of northbridge after a gig.

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by jim_reaper

i'm not sure what side i'm on until i see clear figures on my screen.
i like the idea of being able to protect my (future) family
But i'd hate to see my house get broken into and noticing my gun missing. knowing that theres another potential threat staring at me when i'm walking down the backstreets of northbridge after a gig.

Yep, theft is a concern but every licensed gun owner in Australia is required to have adequate storage for their firearm. NSW has some fairly strict requirements regarding the wall thickness, material and locking mechanisms of their safes and police have to come and check it over for compliance.

Recent reports have made a big deal of gun theft in Australia but it's not a big issue, in 2005/2006 a total of 1445 firearms were stolen across Australia in 635 separate incidents. Not a big figure when you take into account that there are 2.5million registered firearms in Australia.

Certain changes would be required to storage laws and self defense laws to allow guns for self defense in Australia. Currently guns can't be stored loaded, and ammo must be locked up separately. However some changes to this would allow quick access fingerprint or hand print safes which would give home owners piece of mind and security.


Gun ownership and self defense are highly emotive subjects. Everyone would be happier if we could all just get along and live in peace and there was no need for weapons at all. Unfortunately reality is much different.

Despite my comments here my guns are for target shooting. I shoot every weekend and travel away to events up to a dozen times a year. It's a great pastime filled with fantastic people and it gives me something to do when I'm not talking about cars.

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by HLC

PM sent (in a minute) lol

Small world

[troppo]

Originally Posted by jim_reaper

But i'd hate to see my house get broken into and noticing my gun missing. knowing that theres another potential threat staring at me when i'm walking down the backstreets of northbridge after a gig.

Which is why it's a really really good idea, I suspect mandatory these days, to have a sturdy gunsafe. Unlike the local police who left a handgun on the counter at the city station which some bloke walked out with...

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by blownvn

Obviously you think America's a fools paradise, but the truth is that the areas where crime is the highest (New York, Washington DC, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc) have the strictest gun laws. The places with the least restrictive guns laws seem to be the safest and those states that now allow conceal weapons licenses have experienced a drop in crime rates since passing CCW laws.
No US state which has passed CCW laws has gone back because they've been proven to work. Before each state passed those laws there were cries that blood would run in the streets and that people would shoot each other over the most trivial things but it simply hasn't happened.

This is one of the things the anti-gun lobby cannot comprehend and won't advertise.
They also give the impression that you can buy a handgun, instantly across the counter in all states in the USA. Part of their propaganda.
I must say that I don't wish to have CCW laws here.
I have been a target pistol shooter for 25yrs and see no use for carry laws in Australia.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by tex

Looks good in the news (for all the anti gun lobby) , and makes police look like they're doing their job.......

A registered firearm dealer may keep military 'style' semi / autos, and may sell them to appropriately licenced persons / dealers. 20,000 rounds, big deal.

More than likely a(nother) case of hanging someone that has done nothing more than not lodged appropriate paerwork or something silly.

meanwhile, 1000's of the wrong people have got them stashed under their house, buried in the back yard and hidden in false walls.

Earlier this year, my mates and their legal class went on an excursion to Barwon Maximum Security Prison to talk to the inmates there, one guy still has an M249 and a Desert Eagle stashed away still ready for when his 22 year jail sentence is over.

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by Falcon_Phill

How do you spray and pray with a vehicle?

Nitrous on a stock bottom end is spray and pray innit?

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by 90sFTW

Earlier this year, my mates and their legal class went on an excursion to Barwon Maximum Security Prison to talk to the inmates there, one guy still has an M249 and a Desert Eagle stashed away still ready for when his 22 year jail sentence is over.

Suuuuuuuuuuuure.
Bet they're stored with Jimmy Hoffa and the Beaumont children...

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

Suuuuuuuuuuuure.
Bet they're stored with Jimmy Hoffa and the Beaumont children...

Thats what he said anyway, quoting him here.

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

This is one of the things the anti-gun lobby cannot comprehend and won't advertise.
They also give the impression that you can buy a handgun, instantly across the counter in all states in the USA. Part of their propaganda.
I must say that I don't wish to have CCW laws here.
I have been a target pistol shooter for 25yrs and see no use for carry laws in Australia.

So you think that the laws we currently have in Australia are right?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 90sFTW

Earlier this year, my mates and their legal class went on an excursion to Barwon Maximum Security Prison to talk to the inmates there, one guy still has an M249 and a Desert Eagle stashed away still ready for when his 22 year jail sentence is over.

There are lots of stories but a number of M249s (like a f89 but with a folding stock) have gone bush at shoalwater so it is possible. Fairly useless weapon outside a war zone as it tends to be "interesting" on mags and gets a bit upset on reused link.
Desert Budgies are trendy looking pistols but are VERY heavy and LOUD making them not all that suitable for grub operations....

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by blownvn

So you think that the laws we currently have in Australia are right?

Don't know about being right, but too strict and too much red tape.
The laws could be lightened up a lot.
We still don't need general carry laws though.

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

We still don't need general carry laws though.

Reasons?

No-one is saying that everyone should or needs to carry but if you wish to take responsibility for your person safety or that of your families then why should you be denied the opportunity.

The police can't be everywhere and rarely are they in a position to stop assaults our robberies from happening. They come and pick up the pieces afterwards.

As the saying goes, "When seconds count the police are only minutes away."


I agree though that our laws are unnecessarily strict and complicated.

[3vXT]

Do you honestly believe the benefits of letting people carry guns with them when they go shopping outweigh the risk of being killed by a bad guy? If you do then i don't think you should be allowed to carry a concealed rubber band.

I think you've seen too many movies.

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by ken2903

Do you honestly believe the benefits of letting people carry guns with them when they go shopping outweigh the risk of being killed by a bad guy? If you do then i don't think you should be allowed to carry a concealed rubber band.

I think you've seen too many movies.

You've already answered your own question.

As you say the benefits of letting people carry over the risks of being killed by a bad guy
.

The bad guys already have guns and knifes, the good guys (that's us) are unarmed as required by law.

No-one knows more than I that movies are unrealistic but I do read the news and I also read what happens in the US and what I've learned is that when people do use guns to defend themselves their attackers are right on top of them so they have no chance to run, only to fight. And more often than not the armed good guy wins against the armed bad guy.

The bad guy sees the gun as a status symbol, something to scare their victims. While the defender sees the gun as a tool for defense and trains accordingly.

[3vXT]

Homicides in Australia are gradually going down, something like 1.5 people out of every 100,000 people a few years ago and getting lower. Thats going to rise if anyone over 18 with a relatively clean record is allowed to carry a firearm whenever the go out. It 'MAY' save a few people, but the extra guns, legal or stolen, being carried around is going to cause more trouble than its worth.

If it saves 5 people a year, you can bet it'll cost 20 other people their lives. Then the next year, glock and whoever else, will use the increasing 'break in' and 'shooting' crime rate to up their advertising, resulting in more scared people buying weapons to protect themselves and maybe 10 people will use their firearms successfully to defend themselves the next year and 30 or 40 others will be shot in holdups and home invasions.
Currently handguns do not play a huge role in crime and there just isn't a need for more weapons in our country.

I'm not the Harold Scruby of guns, i've done cash in transit work for 4 years carrying a firearm most days, and i go shooting pretty often (though less than i used to). I enjoy it and from my experience, its been a relatively safe hobby/recreational activity and also a necessary part of my career. There is a world of difference between me and some 'guns are evil', everyone should plant trees and sing songs jerk, but what you're suggesting is just immature and dangerous. Would you suggest people be allowed to use their guns to defend their property too?

[Kryton]

3 days of speculation and still no posted facts of why he was raided and arrested.

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by davway

3 days of speculation and still no posted facts of why he was raided and arrested.

I posted that earlier, he sold several guns to undercover police. Here's the news report.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599...-29277,00.html


84-year-old arrested in gun raid

By Simon Kirby

May 28, 2008 03:06pm
Article from: AAP

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A GANG of alleged illegal firearms dealers, including an elderly gun shop owner, has been busted after the seizure of hundreds of weapons in a series of raids in central western NSW, police say.
Five people were arrested today, including an 84-year-old licensed gun dealer from Forbes, in five raids in the town and one in nearby Peak Hill.

Police said they seized more than 300 firearms, at least 200,000 rounds of ammunition and over 50kg of gunpowder.

They also found prohibited weapons such as high-powered slingshots.

Most of the 300 seized firearms came from the Forbes gun shop and police were examining them to determine which were illegal.

A military-style assault rifle was among the weapons seized from the raided homes.

The men were being questioned by police, who expect to lay serious charges, including the ongoing supply of illegal firearms, which carries a penalty of up to 20 years in jail.

The Commander of the Firearms Squad, Detective Acting Superintendent Jon Beard, said there were links between the arrested men.

"Police will allege there were a number of connections between all the men," he said.

The raids were the culmination of a five-month covert operation.

In the lead-up to the raids, undercover police allegedly bought eight illegal weapons, including pistols, rifles and prohibited firearms.

"As a result of our hard work, there are a number of firearms which will no longer be illegally available to criminals," Det Acting Supt Beard said.

"All illegal firearms are of a concern to the community and we will work tirelessly to identify and investigate all of those who are in possession or supplying them."

He urged anyone with information about the possession or sale of illegal weapons to contact police.

The courts will decide whether the seized weapons should be destroyed.