High-speed pursuits banned in WA

[93EB_SXR6]

I've had this discussion many times with my GF's dad over the years (he is now an ex-police officer, was trained in high speed driving - i'm talking 160mph in the UK).
He found it ridiculous when he came here that he couldn't pursue criminals at high speeds; everytime a chase came up, the cops were told to back off.

I have no problems with police being taught to chase criminals, after seeing the skill level of those trained in the UK; I can only say that Australia must be far behind.
If a dreg crashes his ******* into a wall and kills his bogan passengers, you won't get any sympathy out of me - if its an innocent that is killed... well obviously thats a different story but odds are the scumbag driver will keep driving erratically even without the cops chasing him.

Police are here to protect and serve, how can they do that if they can't stop criminals?

[IDT]

WA police not being allowed to police. So what is new here? Everyone in WA knows that the criminals are all treated as victims in this state.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

If Joe/Joanne blogs in his/her souped up fully sick car (stolen or otherwise) wants to do 200k's and kill themselves, it's probably a god send - the police don't need to be held responsible for that, and the mentality will always be that if the police did chase them, it would be their fault - if they don't chase them, it will still be their fault.

Problem is them doing 200kph also can kill innocent people. So if they know there are no repercussions from excessively exceeding the speed limit then why adjust their behaviour. Just keep doing it till a life is lost really.

It is slowly becoming a case of exceed the speed limit by a lot as you can get a way with it...but 5kph over and your in deep trouble.

[Haxor]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

If you believe the mantra that speed kills, then this is a logical conclusion. Not only will the crim be putting lives at risk, but so will the coppers doing the chasing. If they "wiped off five" how many lives will be saved???? So I think that while they believe their own rubbish about the irresponsisbility and outright danger associated with exceeding the speed limit, then they must not exceed it themselves. (ps. this also applies to all emergency service vehicles).

So take this situation. Someone has just stabbed your mother in front of you and jumped into a car. You luckily see the cops and flag them down, you point out the vehicle and they take off in pursuit.

The crook is speeding away, and the police obey the speed limit, and the crook gets away.

While this is happening the ambulance is plodding along at the speed limit, taking however long it would take to get there... She dies.

The alternative - Police and emergency service vehicle drivers are trained to drive to the conditions at the time, and are given the power to break the road rules therefore the police catch the crook and the ambulance gets there in time to save her life.

Don't you think it's a bit better that way?

The amount of lives saved by Police and emergency vehicles speeding, as opposed to the minuscule amount of lives lost is astounding. It's usually the crook smashing into someone else - which in many cases they would have been doing regardless of if they were being pursued or not. There are pursuit controllers for police pursuits and as soon as ANYTHING becomes less than controlled it's called off.

You sound like a whining 18 year old who has been given a ticket or two.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Haxor

So take this situation. Someone has just stabbed your mother in front of you and jumped into a car. You luckily see the cops and flag them down, you point out the vehicle and they take off in pursuit.

The crook is speeding away, and the police obey the speed limit, and the crook gets away.

While this is happening the ambulance is plodding along at the speed limit, taking however long it would take to get there... She dies.

The alternative - Police and emergency service vehicle drivers are trained to drive to the conditions at the time, and are given the power to break the road rules therefore the police catch the crook and the ambulance gets there in time to save her life.

Don't you think it's a bit better that way?

The amount of lives saved by Police and emergency vehicles speeding, as opposed to the minuscule amount of lives lost is astounding. It's usually the crook smashing into someone else - which in many cases they would have been doing regardless of if they were being pursued or not. There are pursuit controllers for police pursuits and as soon as ANYTHING becomes less than controlled it's called off.

You sound like a whining 18 year old who has been given a ticket or two.

Pretty sure the ambulance isn't allowed to exceed the speed limit with a patient now (actually I think it was 80kph).

[Haxor]

Nor are police if they have a non-sworn member on board. But, if im stabbed, I want the ambo's speeding their *** off until they get to me.

[93EB_SXR6]

If someone I love is stabbed, I want that ambulance fitted with a supercharged, fire breathing V8 - anything that gets them there quicker is okay with me.

Cops likewise should have high performance pursuit cars - even an XR6T would do the job.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Dave3911

Whilst I am normally pretty pro-police, I disagree with the WA Police Union's position here whole heartedly. AVL is not inaccurate at all, it can give an accurate location at any given time. Record that data. Compare distance over time. You get speed. It's pretty simple, and as with most things simple - they are usually some of the most accurate. At the end of the day, all 'speed' is is a measure of distance over a unit of time. If you can accurately record both, you accurately get speed. Time is easy to record. AVL gives an accurate location. Get more than one location, you have distance. Easy.

Sorry but you are very wrong on this one.

We have AVL's on our vehicles, just like the cops they are a part of a Computer Aided Dispatch (CAD) system. The aided part should be a hint here in how accurate these things are. The guarantee of accuracy in good reception conditions is only 500m, many areas get little to no reception at all.

The area in which I live is a system black hole, our vehicles frequently drop the signal and according to the comms centre we have been in one place for hours when in actual fact we are across the other side of town.

I have had many occasions where the CAD had selected me for a lights and sirens response as the closest available unit, but the dispatcher has had to reassign the case to another vehicle because my vehicle is not tracking properly.

They are not accurate, not to any level that could prove an offence.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

That is the mantra that everyone bleats about, but Flappy has it right. Most high speed incidents are for reasons other than chasing the crims. It's often the chasing down speedsters doing 120km/h - in order to catch them they need to be doing 200km/h if they were going in the opposite direction. I find it incredibly hypocritical that in order to slow someone down doing 120, they need to go 200! If speed kills, then they have endangered lives in that pursuit. If you don't accept that, then you have a flaw in your logic box.

Also, when they are chasing the crims, the gloves do not come off - they have to radio back to base to get approval for a high speed pursuit. They are also given an indication of appropriate speeds. When they are exceeding those speeds they are instructed to pull back and slow down.

The most important bit that most people forget is that it is very hard to outrun the radio

Cops do not do chases at speeds of 200 kph, that speed is deemed unsafe for any conditions, no matter what the reason.

I think some people around here need to try and understand the level of scrutiny and the amount of clearance required for any emergency vehicle to exceed the speed limit, it is mind numbing.

By the way, if you truly believe that no emergency vehicle should exceed the speed limit by any margin for any reason, try holding your breath for 5 minutes, your time starts now.

I am sure in 5 minutes time you will have other ideas.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Pretty sure the ambulance isn't allowed to exceed the speed limit with a patient now (actually I think it was 80kph).

Incorrect on two counts.

In the scenario it is not the patient loaded time and travel to the hospital that requires the most urgency, it is the ambulance arriving on scene that does. Once on scene we have many procedures for many patient situations that can negate the need for a lights and sirens transport to hospital. In fact, of all the 1000's of lights and sirens responses I have done, I have gone lights and sirens to hospital less than 50 times.

Also with the patient loaded their is no ruling under state road law or our own code of conduct in regard to what speed we can do under lights and sirens (except our normal limit of no more than 30 over that applies to all code 1 drives). We may exceed the speed limit if appropriate in the current conditions but we are responsible for the safety for all on board and an accident resulting from excess speed for the conditions will result in criminal charges on the driver. This is a situation that may even occur under the speed limit.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Professor_Evans

If someone I love is stabbed, I want that ambulance fitted with a supercharged, fire breathing V8 - anything that gets them there quicker is okay with me.

Cops likewise should have high performance pursuit cars - even an XR6T would do the job.

Sorry mate, you get a glorified delivery van that can't drag off a bread truck because of the weight it is carrying but it looks good with all the candy striping.

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by Haxor

So take this situation. Someone has just stabbed your mother in front of you and jumped into a car. You luckily see the cops and flag them down, you point out the vehicle and they take off in pursuit.

The crook is speeding away, and the police obey the speed limit, and the crook gets away.

While this is happening the ambulance is plodding along at the speed limit, taking however long it would take to get there... She dies.

The alternative - Police and emergency service vehicle drivers are trained to drive to the conditions at the time, and are given the power to break the road rules therefore the police catch the crook and the ambulance gets there in time to save her life.

Don't you think it's a bit better that way?

The amount of lives saved by Police and emergency vehicles speeding, as opposed to the minuscule amount of lives lost is astounding. It's usually the crook smashing into someone else - which in many cases they would have been doing regardless of if they were being pursued or not. There are pursuit controllers for police pursuits and as soon as ANYTHING becomes less than controlled it's called off.

You sound like a whining 18 year old who has been given a ticket or two.

Personal attack aside, you missed my point. That being if you believe speeding kills, then ANYONE exceeding it is putting lives in danger. I have been in ambulances doing 160km/h to get to patients (does that start to give you the idea that I am not 18?), and I have close friends who are police traffic officers. They tend to agree that them being allowed to speed does debunk the idea that any speeding is bad,and that speed cameras save lives.

Pretty pathetic story though - but it would be perfect for Alan Jones on his radio program. Nothing beats a hyped up scare campaign eh?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

Personal attack aside, you missed my point. That being if you believe speeding kills, then ANYONE exceeding it is putting lives in danger. I have been in ambulances doing 160km/h to get to patients (does that start to give you the idea that I am not 18?), and I have close friends who are police traffic officers. They tend to agree that them being allowed to speed does debunk the idea that any speeding is bad,and that speed cameras save lives.

Pretty pathetic story though - but it would be perfect for Alan Jones on his radio program. Nothing beats a hyped up scare campaign eh?

No offence intended but I think some elements of your comment over simplify things. A emergency vehicle is fitted with bright and distinctly coloured flashing lights as well as multiple tone sirens. Also the operator of the vehicle has a much greater level in training for low risk driving in both urgent and non urgent vehicle operation. All those elements do go a long way to ensure that an emergency vehicle can operate at higher speeds with equal to or less risk than your average private vehicle operated by a competent driver.

[Jim Goose]

Didnt take long for the Police bashing to start again i see.... I always find it extraordinary how people whinge constantly about police who speed over the limit while chasing criminals etc.... now comments about ALL emergency vehicles shouldnt go above the posted speed limit???

err.. yea

[geckoGT]

Just to add an element of realism to the discussion, a couple more minutes for me to arrive could have cost a young child his life. He was a 4 year old with extreme asthma and hypoxic that required adrenaline. Is it ok to speed on that one?

[V8 6I]

Oh well WA Police wont need high powered cars like Falcons or Commodores anymore then.They can just observe the situation up to the speed limit and do a U turn in their 1.1 litre econo boxes and issue parking tickets to evil people who dare to overstay the time limit than to chase bank robbers who shot people at the bank so they can do that again later.Cant wait for the new TV cop show,Police fastest chases(up to the speed limit).

[Spudz27]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Pretty sure the ambulance isn't allowed to exceed the speed limit with a patient now (actually I think it was 80kph).

Not true, at least here in W.A. I have driven probably 4 cases back to Hospital on priority 1. In all cases except one (CPR on the move) I would easily have driven 15-20kph faster than the limit. two of the jobs were heart attacks and one a child with non stop seizures. If in a very built up area speed was about 5kph faster. So long as all the boxes are ticked when you evaluate how safe it is to the people on board and the public it is o.k. If you can't tick all those boxes then you should not exceed the limit. At the end of the day if I am the driver at the time and I am in an accident and I can't prove it was safe, or I was acting in a safe manner I will be charged and I don't want that.

[aussie muscle]

I'm surprised the union is putting a hold on high speed pursuits. If you want to attack management, you do what NSW police did a few years back and stop issuing fines (still issued demerits). this affected the income/budget and was quickly resolved.

[Mr Hardware]

my hyperbole meter's needle is bent now
thanks guys

[Polyal]

Hmm CAT600 isnt going to be happy....all that performance and no fun?

/sarcasm for the nannies.

[Dave3911]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Sorry but you are very wrong on this one.

We have AVL's on our vehicles, just like the cops they are a part of a Computer Aided Dispatch (CAD) system. The aided part should be a hint here in how accurate these things are. The guarantee of accuracy in good reception conditions is only 500m, many areas get little to no reception at all.

The area in which I live is a system black hole, our vehicles frequently drop the signal and according to the comms centre we have been in one place for hours when in actual fact we are across the other side of town.

I have had many occasions where the CAD had selected me for a lights and sirens response as the closest available unit, but the dispatcher has had to reassign the case to another vehicle because my vehicle is not tracking properly.

They are not accurate, not to any level that could prove an offence.

Let me clarify Gecko. Firstly, to give some perspective. I am an emergency Police dispatcher down in Melbourne. I use these systems, in conjunction with a computer-aided dispatch system, on a daily basis.

The first thing to acknowledge is that obviously all these system's accross the different states are totally different, so my opinions are very much skewed by the Victorian system - which I know very well.

I fear you are getting two things confused. You are very correct, the reliability of your AVL data within your CAD environment may very well be subject to inaccuracy. All sorts of factors come into play here, including mobile data reception to your AVL transmitter, the speed at which that data is recieved and computed by your CAD system and the frequency in which your unit is set to "poll" the data. All these things together contribute to be a right royal PITA when we try to use the system for it's intended purpose - locating the most appropriate emergency resource for an event. Corrupted data inbetween the unit and the system can sometimes end up with units polling in unusual places - I recently had the Epping Divisional Van sighted about 4 - 5km offshore from Phillip Island...

However this is it's performance drawbacks when looked at within the whole system - and not when data is interrogated in isolation some weeks after the incident.

I have no idea how your (or WA's for that matter) AVL systems work, but ours also have a GPS data logger within the unit. All this information isn't transmitted back to the CAD system. Our CAD system is only set to "poll" it's units at pre-set times (which I won't go into, it gets a bit complicated) but there is a whole heap more data available after the fact. If the agencys use data that is recorded at the end of the chain, then yes you do have major problems with accuracy, but not if it is recorded at it's source. Regardless of that though, any system worth anything will send a GPS location and timestamp together - so that "end" data may still have relevance for interrogation. Getting back to my original point, all you need for speed is two points on the bitumen and the time difference between them.

The accuracy of the unit itself is much more than 500m. In fact it will be the same accuracy as any other civil GPS unit you or I can buy from an electronics store. Usually down to a few meters. The "500m" your agency tells you is to compensate for deficencys in your whole system in updating poll data on a moving vehicle - not the accuracy of the unit within the vehicle itself.

I have personally seen an investigation into a pursuit down here when this data was used. In that particular case, the GPS data was given a severe handicap to account for a 'margain of error' (As the same arguments of 'not an approved speed device' were being banded about) - and it still showed the member was well under quoting speeds to their controller, in an effort to keep the pursuit going.

[kaniSS]

Soft...

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Problem is them doing 200kph also can kill innocent people. So if they know there are no repercussions from excessively exceeding the speed limit then why adjust their behaviour. Just keep doing it till a life is lost really.

It is slowly becoming a case of exceed the speed limit by a lot as you can get a way with it...but 5kph over and your in deep trouble.

The system designed to protect police, is becoming/has become the one that will sting them. Perhaps with these changes, someone will click and realise, and not try to hold police accountable when accidents occur in the line of them 'doing their job'.

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

No offence intended but I think some elements of your comment over simplify things. A emergency vehicle is fitted with bright and distinctly coloured flashing lights as well as multiple tone sirens. Also the operator of the vehicle has a much greater level in training for low risk driving in both urgent and non urgent vehicle operation. All those elements do go a long way to ensure that an emergency vehicle can operate at higher speeds with equal to or less risk than your average private vehicle operated by a competent driver.

Emergency services drivers here do not undergo high speed training. The Ambo I was observing in was being driven by a (very competent) ex-HWP police officer. Police here undergo "pursuit training", but not high speed driving. While i was doing my posting to the ambulance service I asked about crash rates - turns out that very few ambulances are involved in collisions, despite the speeds at which they are driven. This in turn is why I argue that it is not speeding per-se that causes crashes, but rather the lack of attention and riving within ones' capabilities.

Yes I agree with the lights and sirens making the vehicles noticeable,but my point is still that if we agree that speed above the posted limit puts lives in danger, everyone should obey them, no exceptions.

As for the example of the kid you saved by getting there on time, great. But how many people did you endanger getting there? Kids walking onto the road without looking? Kids chasing balls onto the street? Kids on pushbikes without full control? That is the fear campaign used to stop us from exceeding nominal posted limits. So why would it be any different for a vehicle with flashing lights?


But back to the topic more specifically, the issue is with the discrepancy between stated speeds being used in pursuits and measured speeds, via possibly faulty equipment. Faulty equipment never stopped Victorian Police from issuing speeding infringement notices. I think that is Karma

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

The system designed to protect police, is becoming/has become the one that will sting them. Perhaps with these changes, someone will click and realise, and not try to hold police accountable when accidents occur in the line of them 'doing their job'.

??? Ummm no. If you had better available options that you did not utilise and you went ahead and caused serious injury or death, then you are accountable.

Let me put it this way. If I have a patient that I possibly could treat in the hospital, but someone else would do it better and safer, and I went ahead and treated but caused death or serious impairment, then I am to be held accountable for my actions. Sure I was just "doing my job", but in no way would your excuse be a defense

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

??? Ummm no. If you had better available options that you did not utilise and you went ahead and caused serious injury or death, then you are accountable.

Let me put it this way. If I have a patient that I possibly could treat in the hospital, but someone else would do it better and safer, and I went ahead and treated but caused death or serious impairment, then I am to be held accountable for my actions. Sure I was just "doing my job", but in no way would your excuse be a defense

So why are the cops getting a hard time for stopping high speed pursuits?

Sounds like you've just made it real easy for them to say, 'no, we won't have high speed pursuits, you can deal with the consequences, because we won't'.

I'm not getting on the emergency services bandwagon, I'm talking about the original topic - police. A car chase isn't life or death, an ambulance rushing to hospital generally is...I'm not drawing any comparison between them...and nor should anyone else.

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

So why are the cops getting a hard time for stopping high speed pursuits?

Sounds like you've just made it real easy for them to say, 'no, we won't have high speed pursuits, you can deal with the consequences, because we won't'.

I'm not getting on the emergency services bandwagon, I'm talking about the original topic - police. A car chase isn't life or death, an ambulance rushing to hospital generally is...I'm not drawing any comparison between them...and nor should anyone else.

Yes I have made it easy for the police to "just say no". I believe that this is the natural consequence and end point of the "speed kills" mantra. The emergency services are next, that is why I included them.

btw, why rush a patient to the hospital only to wait on the ramp outside?

[Jim Goose]

Police could also be shot at while trying to catch criminals...or innocent bystanders.... lets ban shoot outs.

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Police could also be shot at while trying to catch criminals...or innocent bystanders.... lets ban shoot outs.

I better not comment, Too soon after victorian shooting

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

Yes I have made it easy for the police to "just say no". I believe that this is the natural consequence and end point of the "speed kills" mantra. The emergency services are next, that is why I included them.

btw, why rush a patient to the hospital only to wait on the ramp outside?

Well, for the sake of Australian's, I hope someone wakes up real soon...or this is going to be common practice all over the country.