4 young teens lost their lives last night because the driver was showing off

[Casper]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

He also may slide off a corner in the XT due to it having less grip or may slam into someone that pulled out but may not have done the same thing in the XR. A lot of things "may" happen its insane to make laws like that. Maybe they should ban all males from performance cars since they "may" be more likely to drive fast and crash high powered cars. Would you support that?

Fine by me so long as we can use Steffo's "opinion" of what defines high performance :hihi:

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

He also may slide off a corner in the XT due to it having less grip or may slam into someone that pulled out but may not have done the same thing in the XR. A lot of things "may" happen its insane to make laws like that. Maybe they should ban all males from performance cars since they "may" be more likely to drive fast and crash high powered cars. Would you support that?

Nothing "may" about that last statement, males are the predominant gender in accidents according to my insurance premiums. But that is because there are simply more of us on the road in the first place.

You are grasping at straws now.

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Nothing "may" about that last statement, males are the predominant gender in accidents according to my insurance premiums. But that is because there are simply more of us on the road in the first place.

You are grasping at straws now.

So if Young people "may" do something stupid in a performance car it justifies them being banned. But even though males "may" do something stupid its not enough to justify banning them from performance cars? Why the double standard?

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

So if Young people "may" do something stupid in a performance car it justifies them being banned. But even though males "may" do something stupid its not enough to justify banning them from performance cars? Why the double standard?

are you having trouble with english today?

Males are over represented in accidents because of numerical superiority on the road. Simply put more men drive then the other two sexes, Females and Selekta.

P Platers are over represented in accidents because of varying reasons, most of them based on inexperience, sheer stupidity & poor training

Theres no double standard there. I've looked and I cant see one. One is based on numbers which cant be helped nor altered unless you can get some more women onto the road for us. The other is based on varying amounts of human errors.

Originally Posted by sourbastard

are you having trouble with english today?

Males are over represented in accidents because of numerical superiority on the road. Simply put more men drive then the other two sexes, Females and Selekta.

P Platers are over represented in accidents because of varying reasons, most of them based on inexperience, sheer stupidity & poor training

Theres no double standard there. I've looked and I cant see one. One is based on numbers which cant be helped nor altered unless you can get some more women onto the road for us. The other is based on varying amounts of human errors.

I said males "may" be more likely to misbehave in a performance car, should they be banned or not?

[Laminge]

Lizardmech I cannot follow your discussion or arguements, maybe you should just quit while your behind!

Originally Posted by Laminge

Lizardmech I cannot follow your discussion or arguements, maybe you should just quit while your behind!

Whats hard to follow?

Ill try and explain my point a bit better since I have to go out shortly.
You have a group of people A.(young drivers) some of which may be more likely to do silly things in a performance car.

You have another group B. ( males in general) who as far as I know are more likely on average to be hoons than females.

Using the logic that people with an increased risk of misbehaving on the road should be banned from performance cars, why would you treat group B. differently than group A. ?

[Casper]

Because group B is a simple case of higher stats due to higher participation. Like the fact that sharks eat more fish than koala's. Its simple maths.

Group A (P Platers) is a statistical abnormality. That is that, regardless of being a minority, they have a higher percentage of accidents. Therefore a reason behind the abnormality can usually be found and addressed. Personally I dont think it should be a ban on performance cars myself BUT that doesnt change the fact that this MAY be at least one answer to the statistical abnormality that is easily recocognised in the amount of deaths of younger, more inexperianced drivers.

And speaking of abnormalities... what sex is Selekta anyhow? :

[MITCHAY]

No one is denying there is an over representation of younger drivers in fatalities but some one prove that its because they were driving Hi Po cars.

If someone gets some statistics of what cars they were driving when they died then ill be more than happy to shut up and admit i was wrong. But so far to my knowledge the only facts out there is that younger people are over represented.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

No one is denying there is an over representation of younger drivers in fatalities but some one prove that its because they were driving Hi Po cars.

If someone gets some statistics of what cars they were driving when they died then ill be more than happy to shut up and admit i was wrong. But so far to my knowledge the only facts out there is that younger people are over represented.

My god, you've worked it out!!!

Therefore your comment:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

The only accident i can remember involving a High Po car was that R34 GTR. Other than that i cant think of any other fairly recent story of the type.

basically now stands as a statement not supported by anything but your own knowledge... which like the rest of us is woefully inadequate to claim that Hi Po cars are or are not a factor.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Boy hasn't this debate livened up, cats driving cars, Cessna pilots landing jumbo jets, XT performance raised to XR8 levels, Selekta looking for a Filipino surgeon, the fun just didn't stop.

Originally Posted by Casper

Because group B is a simple case of higher stats due to higher participation. Like the fact that sharks eat more fish than koala's. Its simple maths.

Group A (P Platers) is a statistical abnormality. That is that, regardless of being a minority, they have a higher percentage of accidents. Therefore a reason behind the abnormality can usually be found and addressed. Personally I dont think it should be a ban on performance cars myself BUT that doesnt change the fact that this MAY be at least one answer to the statistical abnormality that is easily recocognised in the amount of deaths of younger, more inexperianced drivers.

And speaking of abnormalities... what sex is Selekta anyhow? :

Yes but factoring in increased participation group B still does alot more "hooning" than females. What im saying is most of the people here could be grouped into a high risk group if someone wanted to. Where does making laws based on high risk groups stop? More often than not it stops just short of inconveniencing the person suggesting it. Most of the people here wouldn't be impressed if non performance car drivers were demanding performance cars be banned due to some risk of them going faster, yet when they are in the same position they are happy to look down their nose at a group they arnt a apart of.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Yes but factoring in increased participation group B still does alot more "hooning" than females. What im saying is most of the people here could be grouped into a high risk group if someone wanted to. Where does making laws based on high risk groups stop? More often than not it stops just short of inconveniencing the person suggesting it. Most of the people here wouldn't be impressed if non performance car drivers were demanding performance cars be banned due to some risk of them going faster, yet when they are in the same position they are happy to look down their nose at a group they arnt a apart of.

As I've said, I'm not for banning P Platers any sort of reasonable car, I simply was showing you there was a reason for why it could be considered. Personally, I would like to see a more indepth set of REAL statistics to show that Hi Po cars have an impression.. which I dont think they do IMHO.

As for where to draw the line? Thats usually simple in a logic sort of way (politicians dont use logic, they use vote buying and revenue). If a statisitical abnormality exists, is investigated and found to have certain reasons that have an irrefutable link with a variable that is common in all(such as P Platers killing themselves in Hi Po cars more often than non Hi Po cars) and is relevant (just because more accident occur in cars with mag wheels then steel wheels is not relevant) then, and only then, should some sort of action be contemplated.

Originally Posted by Casper

As I've said, I'm not for banning P Platers any sort of reasonable car, I simply was showing you there was a reason for why it could be considered. Personally, I would like to see a more indepth set of REAL statistics to show that Hi Po cars have an impression.. which I dont think they do IMHO.

As for where to draw the line? Thats usually simple in a logic sort of way (politicians dont use logic, they use vote buying and revenue). If a statisitical abnormality exists, is investigated and found to have certain reasons that have an irrefutable link with a variable that is common in all(such as P Platers killing themselves in Hi Po cars more often than non Hi Po cars) and is relevant (just because more accident occur in cars with mag wheels then steel wheels is not relevant) then, and only then, should some sort of action be contemplated.

I agree, this is why it irritates me so much when people demand power restriction everytime theres a P plate accident despite their being little to no evidence supporting it.

[Matto_84]

Another idiot on the raods has nearly killed himself and many people in Broadmedows Victoria today as he raced down a street and lost control and hit a bus stop. I have not heard about daeths yet but I know there was a few injuries sustained. This guy should loose his licence for a year or more.. And all this happened in broad daylight, just goes to show that there is idiots on the road at anytime of the day and its useless to ban P platers at night coz they will do it in the daytime.

Oh and the car he was driving looked like a fairly stockish 4 cylinder small coupe car, but that was a far shot from the car. Im not exactly sure on this. It should be in the Herald Sun Tommorow.

Originally Posted by Matto_84

Another idiot on the raods has nearly killed himself and many people in Broadmedows Victoria today as he raced down a street and lost control and hit a bus stop. I have not heard about daeths yet but I know there was a few injuries sustained. This guy should loose his licence for a year or more.. And all this happened in broad daylight, just goes to show that there is idiots on the road at anytime of the day and its useless to ban P platers at night coz they will do it in the daytime.

Oh and the car he was driving looked like a fairly stockish 4 cylinder small coupe car, but that was a far shot from the car. Im not exactly sure on this. It should be in the Herald Sun Tommorow.

He was in a honda prelude, the idiot hit a bunch of school kids. out:
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/com...55E661,00.html

[MITCHAY]

Police interviewed the 19-year-old driver of a Honda Prelude sedan at the scene

Since when has a Prelude been a sedan lol.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Since when has a Prelude been a sedan lol.

And that's you done for todays worthwhile contributions, is it Mitchay? :

[bindi]

Originally Posted by Au2falcons

If I may throw my 2cents in.

To committ murder is a crime. To speed, drink and drive, drive irresponsibly, street race etc. is the same crime because it will have the same outcome.

The government can intoduce as many laws as they like, at the of the day it comes down to us, we are responisble for our actions, no one else.

There are appropriate places where the rules on our roads don't apply, make use of them.

Cheers,

Adrian

Ach, Adrian, I KNEW there was a reason I had the hots for you! lol Smart, smart man...

Anyway, guys this debate has certainly gotten interesting. I would agree that there is SOME truth in the statement about HiPo cars being able to get off the mark quicker, hence reaching excessive speeds quicker than my rolla (unless of course you take out the biggest hunk of junk near new Range Rover V8 that I once drove lol - V8 my ****, it was horrible!).

Here's more for you to think about:
1) Imagine needing that extra power and better handling in the event of a near-miss - being able to accelerate away from a potential accident has saved lives.

2) Newer little corollas etc can FLY yet they don't have the size-ist safety of a Calais.

3) One word for those arguing about young male drivers... TESTOSTERONE.

[gozza]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Boy hasn't this debate livened up, cats driving cars, Cessna pilots landing jumbo jets, XT performance raised to XR8 levels, Selekta looking for a Filipino surgeon, the fun just didn't stop.

it was a dream

[gozza]

power restrictions are pointless
stupid government don't know anything about cars
whats happens if i'm drivin a small car with a 4 cyl or 6cyl with a p/w ratio like a maclaren f1...but hey its not that powerfull it just gos really fast..your ok to drive mate...
get it right d!ckheads

[Heeno]

saw that last night about the guy hitting a bustop, what a tool! its people like that, that makes us all look bad, hope he gets his licence taken off him for good, you don't act like an idiot around people and other cars and this twit just proved that. hope the ones that were injured are not to bad.

[MITCHAY]

Ok i did some research about performance cars and young drivers and found this

http://www.irc.uwa.edu.au/docs/RR157.pdf

Basically it suggested to me that of the vehicles studied most of the cars invloved in serious crashes had a low power to weight ratio.

This investigation has provided evidence to show that young driver serious injury
crashes are not characterised by ‘high’ vehicle power to weight ratios, nor is vehicle
power to weight ratio statistically associated with an increase in the odds of being
involved in a serious injury crash

If i read the graph properly it says that of the case or control vehicles inloving serious injury or death.

nearly 70% were attributed to the 50-74.9kw/t cars,
less than 30% had 75-99.9kw/t,
whilst less than 10% were in the >100kw/t category.

Its a good read and if someone else could read it and see if ive stuffed up cause i stand to be corrected.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Ok i did some research about performance cars and young drivers and found this

http://www.irc.uwa.edu.au/docs/RR157.pdf

Basically it suggested to me that of the vehicles studied most of the cars invloved in serious crashes had a low power to weight ratio.



If i read the graph properly it says that of the case or control vehicles inloving serious injury or death.

nearly 70% were attributed to the 50-74.9kw/t cars,
less than 30% had 75-99.9kw/t,
whilst less than 10% were in the >100kw/t category.

Its a good read and if someone else could read it and see if ive stuffed up cause i stand to be corrected.

Those are indeed the figures, and you have done well to find it, but the study itself is flawed in its concept in that it does not compare hi powered vehicle ownership by a P plater against Hi powered vehicle accidents.

Hi powered vehicles do not make up a majority of the car market. To say that the models of car crashed with P platers at the wheel is just a reflection of the car market itself.

Only by comparing vehicle type ownership to injury/fatality can you truely compare.

For example.

10000 car owners.
7000 own an XT
3000 own an XR8

2000 XT owners die in fatalities = 28.57% of their group
1000 XR8 ownders die in fatalities = 33.33% of their group

But combine them into one study of 3000 accidents, who is the majority group? The XT owners @ 66.67% versus the XR8 owners @ 33.33%. Is this a true representation of risk vs car ownership? No.

This may not be the case at all, but that study is hardly conclusive proof of anything.

As Homer said, "Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of people know that."

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Those are indeed the figures, and you have done well to find it, but the study itself is flawed in its concept in that it does not compare hi powered vehicle ownership by a P plater against Hi powered vehicle accidents.

Hi powered vehicles do not make up a majority of the car market. To say that the models of car crashed with P platers at the wheel is just a reflection of the car market itself.

Only by comparing vehicle type ownership to injury/fatality can you truely compare.

For example.

10000 car owners.
7000 own an XT
3000 own an XR8

2000 XT owners die in fatalities = 28.57% of their group
1000 XR8 ownders die in fatalities = 33.33% of their group

But combine them into one study of 3000 accidents, who is the majority group? The XT owners @ 66.67% versus the XR8 owners @ 33.33%. Is this a true representation of risk vs car ownership? No.

This may not be the case at all, but that study is hardly conclusive proof of anything.

As Homer said, "Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of people know that."

Even if the higher powered cars had a higher death rate it would be very hard to tell if they were actually the cause of the crash. If you looked at P plater deaths per 1000 cars sold by various brands I bet you would find some brands are more likely to be involved in P plate accidents, but it doesn't mean they cause accidents. One thing that study does show is that even if P platers are more likely to die in high-powered cars its still only a small percentage and banning performance cars isnt going to fix the road toll.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

One thing that study does show is that even if P platers are more likely to die in high-powered cars its still only a small percentage and banning performance cars isnt going to fix the road toll.

less than 10% for >100kw/t. This study was based on young drivers and the PWR of the car they were driving. 70% (the majority) were in the 50-74.9kw/t bracket.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Even if the higher powered cars had a higher death rate it would be very hard to tell if they were actually the cause of the crash. If you looked at P plater deaths per 1000 cars sold by various brands I bet you would find some brands are more likely to be involved in P plate accidents, but it doesn't mean they cause accidents. One thing that study does show is that even if P platers are more likely to die in high-powered cars its still only a small percentage and banning performance cars isnt going to fix the road toll.

Easy fix for this debate. If I bring round my 17 year old cousin who has had his P's for 4 weeks, will you let him drive your XR8 with no worries at all? If your answer yes, I'm sure Mitchay, Selekta and Steffo wouldnt mind a go as well. Hell lets open up that invitation to all the P platers on AFF, after all, theres no proof that P platers are any risk at all in a Performance Car, after all they drive just like standard cars right? Insurance companies must know this fact as well, I'm sure its the same price to insure a 17 year old with an XR8 as it is for an XT.

Still feel confident with your argument? Put your car where your keyboard is mate.

I know I wont let my daughter drive my Ute or the XP when she is on her P's or L's.

Hell i'm even going off to do a driving course so that I trust myself with the XP. And you expect me to believe a P Plater with bugger all experience can be trusted in it 110%?

Noone has said this will fix everything, no one thing ever fixes everything on any complex problem, but I know this, It wont hurt anyone further, it isnt likely to get anyone killed from trying, and at the end of the day it makes atleast some sense, even if you dont.

[Velociraptor]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Easy fix for this debate. If I bring round my 17 year old cousin who has had his P's for 4 weeks, will you let him drive your XR8 with no worries at all? If your answer yes, I'm sure Mitchay, Selekta and Steffo wouldnt mind a go as well. Hell lets open up that invitation to all the P platers on AFF, after all, theres no proof that P platers are any risk at all in a Performance Car, after all they drive just like standard cars right? Insurance companies must know this fact as well, I'm sure its the same price to insure a 17 year old with an XR8 as it is for an XT.

Still feel confident with your argument? Put your car where your keyboard is mate.

I know I wont let my daughter drive my Ute or the XP when she is on her P's or L's.

Hell i'm even going off to do a driving course so that I trust myself with the XP. And you expect me to believe a P Plater with bugger all experience can be trusted in it 110%?

Noone has said this will fix everything, no one thing ever fixes everything on any complex problem, but I know this, It wont hurt anyone further, it isnt likely to get anyone killed from trying, and at the end of the day it makes atleast some sense, even if you dont.

That sums this thread up nicely.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Easy fix for this debate. If I bring round my 17 year old cousin who has had his P's for 4 weeks, will you let him drive your XR8 with no worries at all? If your answer yes, I'm sure Mitchay, Selekta and Steffo wouldnt mind a go as well. Hell lets open up that invitation to all the P platers on AFF, after all, theres no proof that P platers are any risk at all in a Performance Car, after all they drive just like standard cars right? Insurance companies must know this fact as well, I'm sure its the same price to insure a 17 year old with an XR8 as it is for an XT.

sweet as, shotgun first :

sourbastard just finished that argument, lol.