Cheif scientest says LNG should be used for transport industry.

[GASWAGON]

Today a report was shown to the government saying that australian LNG needs to be more widely used in the transport industry to lesson our countries reliance on imported oils/fuels.

I'm hoping within a few years we will see many many highway trucks and maybe even some buses and trains using cheap as LNG.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-0...d-fuel/5944748

[xtremerus]

Issues.
Poor energy/volume ratio.
Compressed as a gas into tanks. As opposed to LPG as a liquid.
Not feasible for long-haul trucks. Tanks would have to so big for long distances, and so increase tare and reduce payload.

Only useful for short/city use.
NSW Buses trialled it, and I think it was a failure.

Scientists are great at theory, less so on practicality.

[brismike]

I'm fairly sure Brisbane City Council buses are majority fuelled with LNG. They have been using it for many years.

cheers Mike

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

Scientists are great at theory, less so on practicality.

One of them will likely accuse you of sticking up for "big oil." LOL. Yeah they often lack common sense. We obviously haven't found our perfect solution yet, or sufficiently perfected an existing one.

[cheap]

The Automotive Engineer (September/October 2013) has a good write up on Natural Gas for Vehicles. If you can get your hands on a copy, you will find the pro's and con's written in a straightforward and concise manner. For the life of me I can not understand why Australian Govts haven't embraced gas especially LNG as we have vast amounts of the stuff. IMO the chief scientist is 100% correct.

[Elks]

LNG is workable. The big issue is capacity. It's fairly common in both Tas and WA were there is feeling stations. But is very expensive to set up. Both as a filling stations and as the trucks. For instance a a typical kenworth prime mover with a Westport LNG engine and tanks goes from $250~300 up to $450~500k. And you can buy a lot diesel for 200k.

CNG is takes so much space for so little range as to be useless for anything but city buses.

[Franco Cozzo]

How does it work?

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

How does it work?

How does what work Damo?

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

Issues.
Poor energy/volume ratio.
Compressed as a gas into tanks. As opposed to LPG as a liquid.
Not feasible for long-haul trucks. Tanks would have to so big for long distances, and so increase tare and reduce payload.

Only useful for short/city use.
NSW Buses trialled it, and I think it was a failure.

Scientists are great at theory, less so on practicality.

The city of Dallas USA conducted a detailed test comparing traditional Diesel with LNG busses in a joint scientific study with the department of energy looking at many parameters such as

Fuel consumption, Mileage and dispatching records, Engine oil additions and oil/filter changes, Preventive maintenance action records, Records of unscheduled maintenance (such as roadcalls) and warranty repairs etc

Over the life of the test, 10 new LNG and 10 new Diesels of same chassis and cabin design were compared where the LNG versions cost a fraction more per Km (3%) for fuel use.

However an additional 5 newer LNG busses were introduced during the study, to augment DART'S (Dallas area rapid transit)139 LNG busses and subsequently recorded 8% lower running costs that diesel.

there were initial startup obstacles but once overcome, I think the test proved LNG has a place in mass transit and is far from a failure.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy01osti/28739.pdf

The Australian scientist has a point worth considering as we do have reserves of LNG. With a carefully engineered whole system application and LNG specific engine tech and mapping with equivalent gearbox and drivetrain mapping LNG can prove to be a viable low nitrogen and particulate emission fuel for our mass transport.

JP

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by XR6WGN-LPG

How does what work Damo?

LNG engines, I'm assuming its a similar setup to a LPG engine (same as petrol engines with spark plugs etc?)

Or does it work on the same principle as diesel engines?

I was going down Citylink a few weeks ago and I was following a truck which said all over it it was a diesel engine running on LNG or some other fuel?

[MAD]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

Issues.
Poor energy/volume ratio.
Compressed as a gas into tanks. As opposed to LPG as a liquid.
Not feasible for long-haul trucks. Tanks would have to so big for long distances, and so increase tare and reduce payload.

Only useful for short/city use.
NSW Buses trialled it, and I think it was a failure.

Scientists are great at theory, less so on practicality.

The 'L' in LNG stands for liquid.

You're thinking of CNG.

[bobthebilda]

I think a few of the references in these threads are confusing As far as I know, you have natural gas, but to turn it into a liquid, and thus decrease its volume by approx. 600 times (which then makes it suitable as a transport fuel), it has to be stored at minus 160 degrees. I cant see any points along the supply chain being able to do this, let alone being able to store it at that temp in a car

[MAD]

Oh I see, the OP used the LNG reference but the article did't mention it at all.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by brismike

I'm fairly sure Brisbane City Council buses are majority fuelled with LNG. They have been using it for many years.

Gas bus fleets in Australia use CNG.

This is a good paper that, among other discussion of alternative technology, covers the merits of CNG vs LNG (and LPG):

http://www.dtpli.vic.gov.au/__data/a...7-Sep-2010.pdf

It relates to buses but it is very informative in a more general light.

[xtremerus]

There are wide-spread protests now, about gas wells and exploration.
The price of gas will rise significantly [in the cities] in a few years because demand is increasing.
But the future supply is behind forecasts, with all the "no gas" protesters slowing things down.
An extra demand for gas for transport will probably make matters worse.

[Jastel]

Think I remember that on a BNE bus the gas tank blew up, it was in the yard but as the tanks were on the roof it made a mess.

While a good idea, we already had LPG in most areas and we cant even keep that going.

[mik]

perhaps the lpg and diesel combo might be the go ? instead of losing power it apparently gains power, a bloke i had a yarn with some years ago while he was filling up his lpg/diesel powered kenworth , he said his little 400 horse diesel had gained either a 100 or 200 horses while running on combined lpg and diesel(sorry cant recall the exact specs), he said it had heaps of power,
he said the savings came about by using about 20% lesser of the expensive diesel.

[cheap]

BTW, there is a LPG section on AFF, there's been discussion along the lines of this thread before.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by mik

perhaps the lpg and diesel combo might be the go ? instead of losing power it apparently gains power, a bloke i had a yarn with some years ago while he was filling up his lpg/diesel powered kenworth , he said his little 400 horse diesel had gained either a 100 or 200 horses while running on combined lpg and diesel(sorry cant recall the exact specs), he said it had heaps of power,
he said the savings came about by using about 20% lesser of the expensive diesel.

Thats something which has faded out of existence, there is more gains injecting a distilled water and methanol (50/50) mix, for performance purposes anyway which has picked up in popularity in diesel circles in the USA and even some of the members here on AFF are using it (albiet on petrol engines).

[Elks]

Originally Posted by XR6WGN-LPG

How does what work Damo?

Westport and Clean Air Power were the two main systems sold here.

Westport used a Cummins ISX 15 litre and remade the fuel system. So it ran LNG as well as Deisel. It injects Deisel at about 5% of the normal rate. This is compressed, ignights which in turn ignights the gas. So the truck has two separate fuel system. It can still make full 600 hp / 2050 lb-ft. So no issue there. But the Deisel system is modded to the point that if you ran out of gas you stop. Then you need a tow truck. As you can't just go tip in a bucket of gas.

The Clean Air Power system is much simpler. It uses a fogger into the intake much like an easy LPG system. Same compression ignition of Deisel which in turn ignights the Gas. They run up 60% gas and are usually found on a C15 Cat The best bit is if you run out of Gas it will seamlessly switch to 100% Deisel

There is also a company called Gastech here in Melb who convert the ISX to pure LNG or CNG and therefore have to add spark plugs to make it run.

LNG and CNG are effectively the same thing. Except one is compressed and one is frozen.

[jimt3te50]

Originally Posted by Elks

Westport and Clean Air Power were the two main systems sold here.

Westport used a Cummins ISX 15 litre and remade the fuel system. So it ran LNG as well as Deisel. It injects Deisel at about 5% of the normal rate. This is compressed, ignights which in turn ignights the gas. So the truck has two separate fuel system. It can still make full 600 hp / 2050 lb-ft. So no issue there. But the Deisel system is modded to the point that if you ran out of gas you stop. Then you need a tow truck. As you can't just go tip in a bucket of gas.

The Clean Air Power system is much simpler. It uses a fogger into the intake much like an easy LPG system. Same compression ignition of Deisel which in turn ignights the Gas. They run up 60% gas and are usually found on a C15 Cat The best bit is if you run out of Gas it will seamlessly switch to 100% Deisel

There is also a company called Gastech here in Melb who convert the ISX to pure LNG or CNG and therefore have to add spark plugs to make it run.

LNG and CNG are effectively the same thing. Except one is compressed and one is frozen.

Bang on man. The Westport system is a dead duck for ISX Applications, has been for a while now.

It was expensive, not configuration friendly, had bugger all range and no infrastructure for LNG refuelling. Add to that how complex it is and well, innumerable other factors, let alone it's market acceptance, it was always on borrowed time.

Kenworth invested a lot of money to become the only truck manufacturer to offer an LNG fuelled truck down the production line. We sold a few in WA and Tasmania into very specific applications, but it was ultimately Westport that pulled the plug for truck applications...

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Elks

There is also a company called Gastech here in Melb who convert the ISX to pure LNG or CNG and therefore have to add spark plugs to make it run.

I thought Cummins offered its own LNG/CNG engines straight from the factory?

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by chevypower

I thought Cummins offered its own LNG/CNG engines straight from the factory?

They do.....They have been selling LNG engines for trucks and all sorts applications for a few years now and they're even starting to biuld V12, V16 and V20 LNG engines.

Check out you tube for Cummins LNG engine clips!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXTGb7yyCkE

[GASWAGON]

The yanks have been driving LNG trucks for a few years all ready....Check this out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irXWkK4bGfc

[Davehoos]

Their has been wide spread protest locally about CSG. with professional paid protestors that have achieved-nothing.

she is all full speed ahead and only the drop in the price of oil by OPEC to stop IRAN and Canada will KILL the predicted 70% LNG use for heavy transport in 15 years.

technology we will using probably will be designed by people that havnt started high school or any school.

[GASWAGON]

Its up to the government to implement the LNG industry if they want less relaince on imported oil why cleaning up emmissions at the same time......Only time will tell?

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Gas bus fleets in Australia use CNG.

This is a good paper that, among other discussion of alternative technology, covers the merits of CNG vs LNG (and LPG):

http://www.dtpli.vic.gov.au/__data/a...7-Sep-2010.pdf

It relates to buses but it is very informative in a more general light.

Very informative report....Just read most of it......Appears LNG/CNG still has some obstacles to overcome and synthetic diesel will be on the market by 2020.

While oil prices are as low as they are I dont see a need to change to LNG but if oil prices go back up surely there will be a need to find a cheaper to run alternative....Not to mention the cleaner emissions from LNG/CNG.

[timeout]

The cng pumping stations for the buses at the depots require large amounts of power and can only be put in certain places because of the supply lines.

The fuel range on the busses is shorter on gas compared to diesel yet the exhaust is cleaner (no soot) however run hotter.

The engines are similar to their diesel counterparts however much lower compression and run spark plugs.

If you run one out of gas it's a tow back to the depot.

Would be interesting too see how lines haul trucks would go or even trains.

[Davehoos]

Originally Posted by timeout

The cng pumping stations for the buses at the depots require large amounts of power and can only be put in certain places because of the supply lines.
.

Currently under construction in hunter valley with operation time line toward the end of decade. 1 local project as part of DA has 3-5 large road transport movements per day for 3 party depo deliveries. Electricity no an issue-as alloy smelter closes down there is a electricity over supply.

You have to stop looking at state by state reports when talking about national policies. With new government in Victoria and new leadership in Newcastle local left loonee media is for the first time in my memory running what are they on commentry.