I can see F1 style honeycomb impact protection

[ebxr8240]

After the accident on Friday I can see carbon fibre F1 style cell around driver.. Especially on right hand side...This stuff is energy absorbing.....

[Aeron]

I think it needs to be looked into. Side impact is the most dangerous, especially when 2 drivers sides collide, there isn't much of a "crumple zone" like a front or rear impact.

[MRJUCY]

Lowndes mentioned he'd like to see a driver safety cell as used in DTM etc where the whole cell can be removed with the driver in it which would make the cars safer & make it quicker & easier to remove drivers in big accidents like Friday's or the Rat's big one on Sunday.

[Rev28K]

Either shift the driver closer to the centreline or increase the width of the car (doors) and maybe some sort of side airbags as well.

[05MkIIFutura]

Originally Posted by Rev28K

Either shift the driver closer to the centreline

They are already as close to the middle as is possible

Originally Posted by Rev28K

and maybe some sort of side airbags as well.

Airbags would make no difference. These boys are well and truly strapped in, you will find most damage is done to the body by the exreme g-forces drivers would suffer against the seat and belts etc and having someones rear-quarter punch a whole in your door (BUT the damage is far less than what would be caused without belts!!)

[Martyvan]

Dont know if Honeycombe would assist that greatly in a 1300kg car at speed hitting it.......

The idea of a Safety Cage sounds more feasible, whereby if an impact was big enough to damage the cage, the was not going to be driveable anyway. But would having a safety cage affect the ability to quickly change drivers @ endurance events?

I think re-inforcing the structure around the drivers side door would be a good start.... Maybe having breakaway sections (say front.) to absorb more impact, even though in itself would unfeasible because of the cost...

But what about an active safety measure of installing HID lights (YELLOW/RED/GREEN) which warn drivers of safety problems instantly (NASCAR or INDY Style). Even though the time taken to get out of the throttle and onto the brake may not have saved Friday's incident...

[MRJUCY]

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

They are already as close to the middle as is possible

They could still go in further the rules currently wont let them tho.

[wulos]

There's quite a few ideas that could be implemented in an attempt to reduce the likelyhood of a repeat of this tragic accident.
Hopefully the V8Supercar series takes note of this accident (yes I DO realise that it was in the feeder series - but could just of easily involved one of their higher profile drivers)
The honeycomb side impact protection would almost certainly involve a reshape of the cars as seen racing nowadays. With the 'flares' see on the new VE model, it would be possible to insert a bumper structure onto the doors that protrudes out level with the arches (ala DTM series) and allow teams to use this area to duct the exhaust outwards aft of the B Pillar area. For the DTM series they have a "cutline" 275mm above the floorline, above which must maintain OEM panel shaping, including all panel "shutlines"
The DTM series allows for radical aero degigns outside of the 'protected areas', but the current V8 series is already that detatched from road going reality, that changing the body shapes in certain areas wouldn't matter anyway - especially if it's for safety reasons.

[AnthonyQLD]

Originally Posted by Martyvan

But what about an active safety measure of installing HID lights (YELLOW/RED/GREEN) which warn drivers of safety problems instantly (NASCAR or INDY Style). Even though the time taken to get out of the throttle and onto the brake may not have saved Friday's incident...

thats not a bad idea

[Orbit]

I think LED is the term your after.
and yes i think that would atleast be a decent step.

[Full Spectrum]

Don't laugh at me but not only do i believe drivers should be repositioned closer to the middle and slightly back to protect the feet, But what about some type of side air bag in side impact crashes. Tested with a sensor that will open the air bag only if the body of the car meets this sensor which would be something like the impact on mark porters car. I know it might sound dum cause they don't do this but why not a softer impact might help the driver more.

[Aeron]

Originally Posted by Orbit

I think LED is the term your after.
and yes i think that would at least be a decent step.

And I think it would be useless in V8Supercars. And I'll tell you why.

NASCAR and INDY cars race on an oval with 4 or so corners and a lap time of 30 seconds or so. So there is a good chance that when you get the yellow LED come on your dash, you'll be in the effected area in 30secs or less. This will not work on a track like Bathurst (or any other track that they race on) where a race lap takes about 2:10.000 because drivers will ignore the lights because they may not reach the effected area for 2 minutes. Drivers aren't going to potter round Bathurst for 2mins looking for the danger because it may not be anywhere near them. They will stay into it until they see the yellows, then they'll slow down, like they would anyway.
Im sorry but the LED idea wouldn't work in V8Supercars.

[Martyvan]

Agreed Aeron, I will elaborate somewhat.... It is absolutely pointless at a race track that has wide open spaces say Qld Raceway/Winton. But where it would be of good use is on any track that has a level of blind corners. Say GC Indy, Bathurst, Adelaide.. where there are corners which cannot be seen through........ , Particularly in high speed corners.... turns 3 & 8 @ Adelaide, or right across the top @ Bathurst...

Anyway, I agree with your thoughts on why it wouldnt be sensible as a full course system, but Localised it may be worthwhile as part of a revised active Safety System...?

[blakeyboy]

the drivers are as far back and as close to the centre as they possibly can be within practical reason.. there is not much more you can achieve in this area

they have already been looking at improvments to side imapct protection this year. it is not an overlooked area.

airbags normally help to prevent impact with hard objects such as a steering wheel or potentially the roll cage in this case... i think that this solution is impractical in this environment and extremely difficult to implement.

the main issue in most incidents is the rate of acceleration rather than contact with the car structure.

i would be interested to see any findings in relation to the hans device.. many people are concerned about the hans device in side impacts.

carbon fibre is not significantly energy absorbing.. the way is absorbs energy is by splintering which creates a larger number of issues in terms of punctures etc... metals that plastically deform are a more practical option.

a much more likely to see an aluminium style honeycomb crush structure. in the drivers door. this is very effective in absorbing energy.

essentially we have two systems. the roll cage to create a survival type cell. then a honeycomb structure in the door to create some "padding" on the outside.

there may also be some gains to be made in using deformable seats however this would be a long term project involving FIA and manufacturers.

the light system should be implemented but for other reasons than this one. it would not have made any significant difference. drivers do not lift significantly under yellows if at all and the time between incident to incident was not significant for such a warning system to have been implemented and interpreted.

[drcook]

im going to go against popular thinking and say i dont think a thing should be done.

lets face it, if this tragic accident didnt happen this last weekend would anyone be talking about side impact safety?
why didnt anyone bring up ideas on this the week BEFORE bathurst?.

i understand that people are upset that this has occured, and i sympathise with Mr Porter (RIP), his family & friends, but how far are we to go?

Motor racing is dangerous. thats part of the appeal. you cant make it 100% safe. and if i can be so bold to say, you dont want to. motor racing became famous for that "dare-devil" side of it.

you dont see the sky-diving community changing parachute design because one person died doing it. its skydiving. its dangerous. THATS WHY PEOPLE LOVE DOING IT!. it has the dare-devel factor to it.

Dont get me wrong, im the first person to hope that no one dies again in a racing accident, but (and i dont know how quite to say this without sounding harsh) if you cant face the dangers, dont do it.

again, rest in peace to Mr. Porter and condolences to family.

[wulos]

Originally Posted by drcook

im going to go against popular thinking and say i dont think a thing should be done.

lets face it, if this tragic accident didnt happen this last weekend would anyone be talking about side impact safety?
why didnt anyone bring up ideas on this the week BEFORE bathurst?.

i understand that people are upset that this has occured, and i sympathise with Mr Porter (RIP), his family & friends, but how far are we to go?

Motor racing is dangerous. thats part of the appeal. you cant make it 100% safe. and if i can be so bold to say, you dont want to. motor racing became famous for that "dare-devil" side of it.

you dont see the sky-diving community changing parachute design because one person died doing it. its skydiving. its dangerous. THATS WHY PEOPLE LOVE DOING IT!. it has the dare-devel factor to it.

Dont get me wrong, im the first person to hope that no one dies again in a racing accident, but (and i dont know how quite to say this without sounding harsh) if you cant face the dangers, dont do it.

again, rest in peace to Mr. Porter and condolences to family.

Look around at other MAJOR codes of motorsport.
They ALL make at least some changes out of any major incident like this. Ayrton Senna's death @ Imola resulted in the fitment of 'wheel tethers' on Formula 1 cars. Dale Earnhearts death a few years back resulted in the development, and widespread acceptance / usage of the HANS device in categories right around the world.
You may choose to write this death of as being of lesser significance(or an acceptable part of the danger of motorsports) as it was a death in a 'lesser series'. HOWEVER consider the fact that the accident that killed Peter Brock, was a similar impact - ie a drivers door side impact.
If nothing else CAMS owes it to the memory of drivers killed in motorsports to make the sport safer for those that wish to continue the sport.
It is human nature to turn a blind eye to the risks until the painful truth is exposed in front of their eyes.
To ignore deaths or major incidents, they run the risk of killing the sport off entirely. Motorsports will ALWAYS have some element of risk involved, however there still is a duty to make it as safe as is practical.

[XR8putts]

I like the idea of s slightly buldged out drivers door (and passengers to match) to incorporate the absorbing alluminium or carbon fibre cells. I've seen a few doccumentaries on F1 and the cells (especially in the nose cone) and I'm sold.

I believe a combination of;

* Buldged doors to allow for more absorbing cells
* More members between the A & B pillars
* Moving the driver further towards the center of the car
* LED light warning systems

I believe if the above ideas were implemented, the risk of dying in a Mark Porter style accident would be halved.

[Perana]

For those saying they cant move the seat across anymore... Craig Lowndes has said that the seat can move closer to the middle of the car, it's just the Regulations that don't allow teams to do so.

[drcook]

Originally Posted by wulos

Look around at other MAJOR codes of motorsport.
They ALL make at least some changes out of any major incident like this. Ayrton Senna's death @ Imola resulted in the fitment of 'wheel tethers' on Formula 1 cars. Dale Earnhearts death a few years back resulted in the development, and widespread acceptance / usage of the HANS device in categories right around the world.
You may choose to write this death of as being of lesser significance(or an acceptable part of the danger of motorsports) as it was a death in a 'lesser series'. HOWEVER consider the fact that the accident that killed Peter Brock, was a similar impact - ie a drivers door side impact.
If nothing else CAMS owes it to the memory of drivers killed in motorsports to make the sport safer for those that wish to continue the sport.
It is human nature to turn a blind eye to the risks until the painful truth is exposed in front of their eyes.
To ignore deaths or major incidents, they run the risk of killing the sport off entirely. Motorsports will ALWAYS have some element of risk involved, however there still is a duty to make it as safe as is practical.

I completely agree with your comments (although i never said anything about me having this view because he was in a minor racing class or "of lesser significance" - that doesnt have anything to do with it) but how far do we take it?

say we move the drivers further into the centre of the car, and put stronger door beams in. then an accident happens and someone is killed. what then? change something else? slow the cars down? fit 20 airbags?

im not against changing things within reason, but i dont want to see knee-jerk reactions because someone got killed.

im no doctor, but if i was sitting in a race car sideways across a track and i got hit from the side by another car at, say, 160kph and those immense, instant forces were applied to me i would think my brain would sustain enough damage being moved around within my skull i'd be in alot of trouble. It wouldnt matter whether i was in the centre, to the side, how many beams were in my door.

my point is some accidents are too brutal to avoid via rule changes.

[blakeyboy]

Originally Posted by drcook

lets face it, if this tragic accident didnt happen this last weekend would anyone be talking about side impact safety?
why didnt anyone bring up ideas on this the week BEFORE bathurst?

they have been talking about side impact protection all year and already have a prototype crush structure. this tragic incident just brings it to the general public and media attention.

the gains from moving the seat i see as only about 2 inch's at the abosolute most. the driver is already positioned in line with if not behind the b pillar.

as i have said before i do not see moving the location of the driver as a mojor solution or issue but in some cars there may be differences that i am unaware of.

i do not see any significant changes that will be made other than the implementation of the a measures that have already been tabled for the near future.

[wulos]

They also have the option of revising the speed of the cars / tracks.
They could introduce a "restrictor plate" mod that only allows teams the use of controlled throttle bodies, downwardly revising the rev limiter (The lower limit would also help in reducing the cost of these motors allowing for more engine builders throughout the whole series). Or revise the control tyre again, reducing the width, grooving them, or hardening the compound. They could revise the aero kits the cars use, or send the teams back to using "publicly" available bodykits that must be of a preset volume.
They could easily slow the tracks down with a raft of different measures, without changing the "feel" of the track.

[ebxr8240]

Slowing the cars down won't stop these accidents though after all he was way under his max speed.. I think the issue is the bars break away from cage. If there was a barrier between cage and driver like carbon fibre honeycomb.. Did you see what Marcus Ambrose said about seating in his truck???? They use Alloy seats and they move up to 3 inch's...
This side of cars maybe thinner compared to F1 nose cone but the side is MUCH longer and wider .. IMO its better to spread impact over a wider area...
Cars and safety has come along way.. Look back to when Bruce Mclaren, Jack Brabham started racing in the 60's... No seat belts, hardly had helmets, no roll bar... Sheeesh !!!!!!!
Who's responsible for RED flag ?? Clark of the course???? In cases like this IMO the "flag marshal" in that section should be allowed to show RED flag!!!! That's the only flag that drivers take serious notice of...[Ohh maybe oil / checkered flag?? ]

[blakeyboy]

changing the circuits is rather expensive and not econmically viable.. many of them struggle to stay in operation as it is... with avesco's exorbidante conditions it places on them (hence why EC and previously PI told them to get stuff and why they push for street races, money from governments)
improvements can be made in small areas, like the angle of the wall which PR hit. Don't you dare go ruining the few race tracks that we have left in this country.

resitritor plates rapidly drive costs up due to increased cost of development.. its tricky to make power in a vacuum... look at F3 and the money people like Merc put in. In gerneral it also puts a greater stress on components consequently reducing engine life. we already run a much lower rev limit than these engines are capabale of.. but we just tighten up the valve tolerances to suit the rev limit so then if you overrev they still smack the pistons.

going to overhead cam engines will increase reliablility and reduce long term costs. engines will be able to last much longer than the current 1500kms top 3000kms total. the issue is due to the loadings on the rocker gear due to pushrods. potentially the introduction of fixed firing orders (reduced development costs) as well and also limiting materials used in the engine.. i.e no titanium valve springs etc.

carbon fibre can be designed to flex to.. but many series try to limit its use due to costs. also it requires more expertise. hence why marcus's seat is aluminium its cheaper and easier.

grooving the tyre is a bit of a blight on the sport. the tyre is pretty hard as it is. honestly a change to the tyre would be good but not in aims of controlling speed.
also reducing the grip would increase stopping distances and control which would make this senario harder to avoid.

the red flag is never the responsibility of the local flag marshal.. in this case it was not a red flag able incidient until after the second crash. the reason for this is due to the red flag being circuit wide and if people throw it out willy nilly it seriously effect the event. the current system is fine.
the waved yellow system is FIA mandated and works throughout the world with no serious issues.

we had a tragic event... hell it could have been my driver... but i don't think we have to jump up and down and chuck a tantrum.. we have to look seriously at the situation and see what improvements could have been made.

The only significant change that i see from an engineering standpoint is the introduction(/improvement) of a more significant crush structure in the drivers door.

we are going to end up with control chassis... shocks.. brakes and probably engines... soon... so we can have a completely controlled (read someone making money) class were there is so much parity that it becomes as boring as batshit as no-one has a significant adavantage in one aspect or another to make a pass. disparity makes for better racing.

i would like to see it confirmed that the bars break away from the cage... the welds are the weakest point so it does make sense. but i would expect a serious amount of energy to go into destorting the entire structure.