Modified 6's (ve,fg)

kezzer · 13-05-2009, 05:54 PM

Hey guys, not talking stock figures here, but what would be the best car to modify?

FG xr6 and the VE sv6. And don't say the xr6t or a V8 PLEASE. Just don't do it, these two cars only.

Both are beautiful cars, I've driven both and prefer the VE only slightly.

I know the FG has more torque, but I'm not using the car for work so it would be fully decked out.

I've seen a few modified alloytecs rev to 10k rpm, and there are 15psi FI kits out there as well. As well as this a good tune will give the VE 70nm more torque. Things I don't like, the auto sucks, so would consider getting manual and the tune for the 09 models isn't out yet.

The ford on the other hand, has a higher starting point with 50? nm more torque, and can run 16psi FI. I have no idea as far as what a tune would give it, don't know if its out yer?. Things I don't like, no 50/50 split and heard about brake failures?

I know this is a ford forum so answers will be a little biased, but as far as the full potential of both cars what do you think? I don't go stock figures and drive.com.au haha, otherwise I would have bought the Aurion

:

Should I wait for the new commodore to come out? Or wait for the new ford? Heard the new falcon will have a V6? If so will it be any good?

Cheers guys, its a long post, no pro -falcodore please.

ea90gl · 13-05-2009, 05:57 PM

if your looking at FI why not start with an XR6T?

vztrt · 13-05-2009, 05:59 PM

A couple of things the Falcon will stay I6 till 2013.

There was a rear brake hose recall on the older BA's. This has nothing to do with the FG.

Now why are you talking about FI when you stay don't talk about the XR6T??

Do you want an NA motor or a FI motor??

Lightning Strike XR6 · 13-05-2009, 06:04 PM

FG for sure. Or perhaps a G6E?

But all reviews have chosen the Falcon. Look at drive ect for reviews.

GS608 · 13-05-2009, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

A couple of things the Falcon will stay I6 till 2013.

There was a rear brake hose recall on the older BA's. This has nothing to do with the FG.

Now why are you talking about FI when you stay don't talk about the XR6T??

Do you want an NA motor or a FI motor??

supercharge an n/a I6 maybe?

FlipXW · 13-05-2009, 06:06 PM

G'day kez, welcome to the forum.

IMO the XR6 would be easier to mod than the SV6. The falc doesnt only have more power and torque but the thing that makes it great is that it comes in so early in the rev range and carries it through. Do you really want to be reving the car off the limit to extract any sort of power from it? An XR6 with extractors, exhaust, diff gears and cai will see you running pretty quick quarters.

I know this is a Ford website so there is to be some bias, but I do believe that in the 6 race and as an overall car the FG trumps the VE in almost every aspect. As for brake issue that was a B-series problem. I do not believe it is carried over to the FG.

I know you metioned dont say buy the 6T, but with you talking about FI why not be done with it and buy the same car thats already FI and an absolute weapon from the factory with warranty.

vztrt · 13-05-2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR-CHIEF

supercharge an n/a I6 maybe?

I was thinking that but he post is all over the place and he doesn't say what exactly he is looking for. .

If he seriously wanted a fully decked out I6 with FI a G6ET would do everything he wanted, and the tunability would be great. Throwing a s/c on an I6 isn't gonna be cheap, especially if he wants all the extras on a N/A XR6.
Only downside is you get the 6 speed auto.....oh wait....

MITCHAY · 13-05-2009, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

A couple of things the Falcon will stay I6 till 2013.

There was a rear brake hose recall on the older BA's. This has nothing to do with the FG.

Now why are you talking about FI when you stay don't talk about the XR6T??

Do you want an NA motor or a FI motor??

X2

It sounds like you want to eventually want to head down the FI path but want to start with NA. Personally, I would say just go with FI to begin with as its going to cost too much money and it would be far more easy IMO.

Anyways from my experience is that while the VE V6 is a good enough car I could not see it being better than the Ford I6 performance and mods wise. I'm talking BA and BF (almost the same) vs VE and IMO the VE loses out.

As for a VE V6 spinning to 10k, I'd like to see that seriously.

troppo · 13-05-2009, 06:20 PM

I'm guessing from the first post that FI relates to fuel injection and rail pressure, as opposed to forced induction. Just a guess though...

snappy · 13-05-2009, 06:34 PM

preyty sure we had a thread similar to this a couple of months ago , an the inline 6 came out better, No suprise more capacity, and higher output to begin with.

cosmo20btt · 13-05-2009, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troppo

I'm guessing from the first post that FI relates to fuel injection and rail pressure, as opposed to forced induction. Just a guess though...

No i think from his point of view as 16 psi is not enough for fuel pressure ie: 205 kilopascals (30psi approx) which is the minimum you could run a 40l motor, so the man must be talking boost pressure from induction.

GT69 · 13-05-2009, 08:02 PM

Who cares? If you prefer the VE go for it. If your looking forced injection look straight at the XR6T, if thats out of the question perhaps a supercharged SS is more your style, either way power output means nothing if you dont like the vehicle in the first place.

Smoke Pursuit · 13-05-2009, 08:06 PM

VE V6 holdens are ... Really theres no comparison.. Build quality is lesser, lesser torque... They really arent a great package to start with..

vanman_75 · 13-05-2009, 08:10 PM

cant believe anyone would compare a commo 6 with a falcon 6 ,ford bias or not .fast times or not its a rough piece of junk with a dodgy auto, if you were asking 8 well maybe but the falc has the goods in the 6 race not to mention the cabin appointments ,but if you want to be with the cool crowd buy the holden its the in thing .

and maybe some real research with master google to get some facts straight before asking ,and welcome to the forums there are plenty from both sides in here .

Road_Warrior · 13-05-2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kezzer

no 50/50 split

What's this you're talking about?

Yellow_Festiva · 13-05-2009, 08:24 PM

The Falcon 6 is a better unit to start with. No question about it.

However... if you are thinking of FI, why be so adamant to not hear suggestions for the XR6T??

You would be saving yourself a ton of time, money and grief going with the factory turbo as your base if you are looking at that route for added performance...

Seems logical to me..

Yellow_Festiva · 13-05-2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

What's this you're talking about?

Back seat I assume.

vztrt · 13-05-2009, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Back seat I assume.

Or weight distribution.

Road_Warrior · 13-05-2009, 08:35 PM

Well if its the back seats he's talking about, he's outta luck with the Commodore, it doesn't have a split fold rear seat at all.

That 50:50 weight distribution is a meaningless number (more like fanboy ****) unless the owner is going to be circuit racing his car and weight distribution is a concern.

That said the VE SV6 in it's current form is still a sweet ride. I'd probably still go for the FG though purely because of the I6. If I was V8 shopping though...red team here I come...

ehast13 · 13-05-2009, 09:34 PM

P plater?? Got some money but can't have a turbo or v8????

Ford 6 breathes better, strong bottom end, able to be custom tuned at a number or places now (including custom VCT timing)

Go the ford and go to jim mock and see if he has some upgrades for the newer falcons.

Some road registered n/a ba sixes are doing thirteens.

don't worry about 10,000 rpm. The ford doesn't need to rev as high as an alloytec as the volumetric efficiency from the longer stroke provides higher torque anyway. (power = torque x revs).

The commie is 20% down on torque compared to ford. An 8000rpm falc will perform as per a 10,000rpm alloytec v6 (these 10,000rpm alloytec sixes are from formula holden right???)

A ford head can flow so much hp (see how much many turbo's flow without port/valve mods).

A balanced fpv bottom end would rev okay when combined with decent cam profiles. With such a long stroke you would want to limit it to about 7500rpm to 8000rpm before the metalurgists in the audiences cry at the obscene piston speeds (about a gazillion feet per second).

This would be relatively cost effective and avoid the need for unobtnium pistons, chrome-moly glove bix lids and titanium dipsticks.

An additional bonus is the fact that the cast iron frord block can withstand a heat cycle (high rev, high piston speed, forgot to check the water etc) better than a 'watch me expand and eff myself up' alloytec block.

Just my thoughts

Iggypoppin' · 13-05-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehast13

P plater?? Got some money but can't have a turbo or v8????

Ford 6 breathes better, strong bottom end, able to be custom tuned at a number or places now (including custom VCT timing)

Go the ford and go to jim mock and see if he has some upgrades for the newer falcons.

Some road registered n/a ba sixes are doing thirteens.

don't worry about 10,000 rpm. The ford doesn't need to rev as high as an alloytec as the volumetric efficiency from the longer stroke provides higher torque anyway. (power = torque x revs).

The commie is 20% down on torque compared to ford. An 8000rpm falc will perform as per a 10,000rpm alloytec v6 (these 10,000rpm alloytec sixes are from formula holden right???)

A ford head can flow so much hp (see how much many turbo's flow without port/valve mods).

A balanced fpv bottom end would rev okay when combined with decent cam profiles. With such a long stroke you would want to limit it to about 7500rpm to 8000rpm before the metalurgists in the audiences cry at the obscene piston speeds (about a gazillion feet per second).

This would be relatively cost effective and avoid the need for unobtnium pistons, chrome-moly glove bix lids and titanium dipsticks.

An additional bonus is the fact that the cast iron frord block can withstand a heat cycle (high rev, high piston speed, forgot to check the water etc) better than a 'watch me expand and eff myself up' alloytec block.

Just my thoughts

Your thoughts are very well worded. At a guess you are an engineer or something with an education? Anyway, kezzer, the fords 6 banger has always been a mighty motor and holdens haven't really been up to it. Don't listen to anything I say about engines, as I'm not learned enough. But listen to this bloke. He knows what he's on about.

ChemicalHorizon · 14-05-2009, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehast13

With such a long stroke you would want to limit it to about 7500rpm to 8000rpm before the metalurgists in the audiences cry at the obscene piston speeds (about a gazillion feet per second).

nice hehe

met / process / chem engineer here...i dont really know where i fall in all three.

also, if you want rpm get a bike and rev till you vibrate yo nuts off

alter_EGOXR · 14-05-2009, 01:09 AM

i have been told...if your going with a 6 go the ford and if your going for an 8 go with a holden...

**Bluehoon** · 14-05-2009, 06:22 AM

My BA nails a VE V6, and abolsutely creams it beoyond belief. Even the SV6 is no match for a 4 speed clunker 182kw BA XR6!!!!!
With a BA you can also neck quite a few L76's!!

Whether it's the N/A I6 or the legendary I6T it will haul load like a freight train, kick *** off the mark and won't let you down

Wally · 14-05-2009, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kezzer

Hey guys, not talking stock figures here, but what would be the best car to modify?

FG xr6 and the VE sv6. ........

To do what? How much you want to spend? Do you like high revving engines? Are you after only engine mods or the whole deal? Peak power and torque figures are just marketing. Fastest between the lights, or street racing for that matter, is a hollow victory.

My suggestion is to just buy the car you feel comfortable in. Both will have aftermarket stuff you can bankrupt yourself purchasing. Just remember that nobody of consequence really cares if your car is faster than the next bloke's. There's a lot to be said for stickers, lowered suspension, skirts, unattenuated exhaust, fat tyres and multiple exhaust tips.

kezzer · 14-05-2009, 12:43 PM

Hey guys, sorry I didn't state my reasons for not wanting a xr6t or F6

I am planning on either a twin turbo setup or a dual application setup. A supercharger for low to mid range and a big turbo for top end. Thats why I don't care about stock figures, sure i know the V6 has 20% less torque, but that doesn't matter if a tune by itself will give it over 70nm of trq. I would like to know what the tunes on the fords stock would do? Also do the Fg's have quad or dual cams??

I don't street race, and this would purely be strip car, that I can still drive around in if I wanted. Would like to see it below 10 seconds if possible. Will also be taking it around a track, so limited understeer etc would be much better.

Anyway, thanks for all the help. And I wasn't making up those facts about the alloytec, ive seen a twin turbo going around in SA. CPR has revved the engine over 10k rpm with just a manifold replacment and cams. Cant go any higher coz its the limit of the software, its still being worked on. Has alot of push for alittle engine.

I am 80% certain I will be going manual. Will this affect performance of either car at all?

Also what will the next I6 motor be like? The next Holden V6 is already out in the states in the camaros, 225kw and 370nm trq. Supposedly they take mods really good as well. 31 rear wheel horsepower with only an intake and exhaust.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5565

And I can't find any info on the new I6.

Also I disagree Ve vs Ba, I just sold my Ba, biggest piece of crap I ever owned, I am a ford guy but the amount of problems I had with that car was ridiculous. Only thing that stopped me doing it up. Might be different for others, but this has put me off the Bas indeffinetly.

As far as I6 vs V6 without comparing these two cars what are the disadvantages of both and the advantages? Like there must be a reason mercedes switched to V6 and BMW still does I6.

Again, thanks for your time.

EDIT: made a few mistakes

XR6_661 · 14-05-2009, 12:46 PM

When was the last time you heard of a rattletech V6 getting as much power with forced induction as some XR6Ts?

'Nuff said.

Paddyboy · 14-05-2009, 12:52 PM

To be honest man, you're asking a lot of questions that suggest you dont know a hell of a lot about the cars and the setup in general (man vs auto) and you're talking about driving a 9 second streeter, to have that kind of car that is a road-legal racer you are going to have to know what you are doing and have people around you to help out.
to have a 9 second drag car that also setup for cicuits is going to be tough and expensive and to be honest doesnt make sense, you should have one or the other, I mean a fast circuit car (such as a v8 supercar) only does 11's down the 1/4 so if you want 9 second car (and a 6 as well) its going to be crazy around a track. For a 9 second car the obvious choice would be auto but you couldnt use either of the boxes that ford or holden use as stock, and for a circuit car you would be better off with a manual or a sequential shift box.
How much money are you looking at spending coz you better have heaps.

kezzer · 14-05-2009, 12:57 PM

I figured $30k is the absolute maximum I would spend on the car. Of course the clutch, diff, box etc will all have to be replaced, but not right away. I said I would like to take it around the circuit but #1 is a below 10 second car.

Black F6 · 14-05-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kezzer

I figured $30k is the absolute maximum I would spend on the car. Of course the clutch, diff, box etc will all have to be replaced, but not right away. I said I would like to take it around the circuit but #1 is a below 10 second car.

With a XR6 NA or SV6, sorry but you are dreaming, you would have to rebuild the whole thing

And still wouldnt get a 10 sec car :togo: