US Ford and Global RWD - Page 2

vztrt · 22-07-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Ford HQ won't be the ones waiting to see what Ford Aus does, it will be the other way around. If Ford North America were to have an exported Falcon, the car would need to be built with an allowance for LHD from the get go.

Pitty that program got cancelled.

Elks · 22-07-2009, 09:07 PM

Ohio

Can you confirm for me I heard a while ago that commercial based vehicles SUV's and Pickup are exempt from the CAFE standard.

Is this correct?

chevypower · 23-07-2009, 02:36 AM

It looks like trucks will still have a target to meet, but not as high as cars.
http://jalopnik.com/5261163/obama-ki...y-plan-by-2016
Right now half-ton trucks (F150, Silverado and Ram) all get about 20-21 on the highway. I wouldn't expect the EcoBoost V6 F150 to get any better than 23. Maybe EcoBoost with ethanol injection would hit 25. So perhaps they will either need to do a 4 cylinder EcoBoost with ethanol injection, in a hybrid. A diesel hybrid, or do a series hybrid, similar to the setup in a Fisker Karma. It is possible, but who is going to pay a $20-30,000 premium to get that 10mpg? I don't mind setting these targets, but for governments to mandate these things without working out a viable and affordable way to do it, while still selling. Does CAFE apply to ALL manufacturers, or just domestic ones? If it's just domestic ones, then we're going to see Toyota (and other companies) laughing while selling cheaper cars. This is exactly the thing that kills the economy, puts people out of jobs, and makes China and India grow even quicker to become super powers. Then more bailout money required to keep them going. As much as I want fuel economy to improve and for everyone to get off the dependence of foreign oil. I think these CAFE requirements are just not thought out properly.

**Dave R** · 23-07-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Pitty that program got cancelled.

That was the 2012 program I believe. If the Taurus doesn't eventually replace Falcon then there will eventually need to be an all new Falcon at some point, who's budget and other particulars will be determined by Dearborn - whether they want a LHD version will be up to them and I'm guessing it will be a flat "no", since the I6 will be somewhat of an unknown over there when it comes to servicing and repairs. The only way the'd take it is if it was engineered for a V6 :( and even then it will overlap with their current portfolio + RWD = bad for CAFE.

Bossxr8 · 23-07-2009, 10:06 PM

GRWD was put on hold, but not cancelled I believe. There is still a chance it will be revived when they start to move out of the GFC.

Road_Warrior · 23-07-2009, 10:09 PM

It is a project that will be 'back on the table' for consideration when Ford returns to profit, yes.

vztrt · 24-07-2009, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

GRWD was put on hold, but not cancelled I believe. There is still a chance it will be revived when they start to move out of the GFC.

GRWD was shelved, Falcon going LHD was canned, Ford then moved the money given by the government to a different project so they wouldn't have to give it back.

RW - Ford posted a profit in the second quarter so the GRWD might be dusted off.

Ohio XB · 24-07-2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elks

Ohio

Can you confirm for me I heard a while ago that commercial based vehicles SUV's and Pickup are exempt from the CAFE standard.

Is this correct?

Chevypower bascially beat me to it already. Trucks and SUV's have always had to meet a CAFE standard (since instituted), its just been different than cars because of the weight difference, purpose, and I would imagine aerodynamic difference.

Steve

Gobes32 · 24-07-2009, 08:30 PM

Just a thought, do you think that Head Office (US) is keeping the Falcon alive based on the hope that they still might require a GRWD in the not too distant future? And if that said car already accepts the eco-boost motor and the coyote v8(?), then it makes all the more sense to duplicate the tooling and produce a large rwd car in the US?

**Fordman1** · 24-07-2009, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Just a thought, do you think that Head Office (US) is keeping the Falcon alive based on the hope that they still might require a GRWD in the not too distant future? And if that said car already accepts the eco-boost motor and the coyote v8(?), then it makes all the more sense to duplicate the tooling and produce a large rwd car in the US?

It can't be bad news to use global powertrains of some kind in FoA's products.

eg: i4T, 2.7 Diesel V6, Coyote V8.....

Gobes32 · 24-07-2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

It can't be bad news to use global powertrains of some kind in FoA's products.

eg: i4T, 2.7 Diesel V6, Coyote V8.....

That was my thought process.... If they ever did adopt the Falcon as a GRWD then they would duplicate our tooling and produce their version in the US and we would make ours in OZ, then, when it comes time to create a facelift, etc, Ford Oz and US can spread their costs over a bigger base?

**Fordman1** · 24-07-2009, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

That was my thought process.... If they ever did adopt the Falcon as a GRWD then they would duplicate our tooling and produce their version in the US and we would make ours in OZ, then, when it comes time to create a facelift, etc, Ford Oz and US can spread their costs over a bigger base?

You would hope so....

The biggest development costs are powertrain and crash testing, so that could be shared.

However I think Falcon will remain an orphan. I don't think there'll be a GRWD program. I hope I'm wrong...

BUT maybe there would be a chance of FoA exports with these powertrains !

Ohio XB · 27-07-2009, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Just a thought, do you think that Head Office (US) is keeping the Falcon alive based on the hope that they still might require a GRWD in the not too distant future? And if that said car already accepts the eco-boost motor and the coyote v8(?), then it makes all the more sense to duplicate the tooling and produce a large rwd car in the US?

Never say never.

I wished I knew enough to be able to give a good answer but all I have is my experience with Ford and my own guess.

First, never apply common sense in guessing what Ford will do. There are two ways to looking at why this is. The knee jerk one is that Ford doesn't use common sense in their decision making process, so you can't apply common sense when predicting what they will do.

Sometimes, this holds true. Othertimes there is more at work than we know.

That brings up the second way of understanding how Ford makes decisions. There can be a lot more at play than the rest of us know. We may not be looking at the same scope of things as the heads of the company are looking at them.

That being said....

If I had to guess, I would say that Ford is mindful of the reputation and love for the Aussie Falcon as they are with the customer base for the Mustang. They learned a lesson when they planned to make the Mustang FWD, and people wrote in droves saying that they just could not do that. I believe messing with the Falcon would provoke the same response.

You can't cook the goose that lays the golden eggs.

I would think that if Ford felt they wanted to have a RWD platform to market globally that they would base it on the Falcon since it is already a modern and quality platform. Could the Mustang platform be expanded on? Hey, it's still got a solid axle. What do you think? Yes, it could be redesigned with IRS, but doesn't the Falcon already have this? Hasn't the Falcon already been crash tested with this suspension? Yes. Why shouldn't it be used? I can't think of a reason.

Since the car business goes in cycles (back in the early 1980's the big move was to FWD and 4 cylinder engines, look where were went to!) I would think that Ford would like to have a RWD platform waiting in the wings for when this segment takes off again. I would think it would be nice if it was one that already had a big reputation and loyal following.

Steve

**Polyal** · 27-07-2009, 09:53 AM

Could you imagine how good a GWRD Falcon would be, that is a crap load more R&D funds waiting to be used. The falcon is world class on the budget it gets now.

That I believe is why BMW and Merc are so good; same car all over the world (with a few localised specifications here and there).

Everyone else sees it, lets hope the beancounters can too.

The only thing I would hope doesn't get shared is sheet metal, but in saying that a good design should and can be accepted by multiple audiences.

JPFS1 · 27-07-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

That brings up the second way of understanding how Ford makes decisions. There can be a lot more at play than the rest of us know.

Steve

Steve - this comment is very close to the mark. An example of this is the bashing that Tom Gorman gets over the Territory/Diesel delay. There is a lot more to the reasoning behind this scenario, and Gorman was not the main player here. These decisions are usually not made by the one person sitting at the top of the tree, rather it's the people that do the work and know the implementation costs that are fighting the yes/no battles.

Ohio XB · 28-07-2009, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPFS1

Steve - this comment is very close to the mark. An example of this is the bashing that Tom Gorman gets over the Territory/Diesel delay. There is a lot more to the reasoning behind this scenario, and Gorman was not the main player here. These decisions are usually not made by the one person sitting at the top of the tree, rather it's the people that do the work and know the implementation costs that are fighting the yes/no battles.

Good insight.

Steve