Kia reveals sketches of flagship RWD sedan

[Moby Vic]

Hyundai already sells the RWD Genesis coupe and sedan here, plus the RWD Equus sedan.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

Hyundai already sells the RWD Genesis coupe and sedan here, plus the RWD Equus sedan.

What's Ford's image like in the U.S?

[Moby Vic]

Ford's image is pretty good at the moment. A lot of people like that Ford didn't take government bailout money (detractors claim that a loan Ford got from the government to develop energy-efficient cars was the same thing, but it really wasn't).

Quality is rising again, they're making profits again, they've got some nice hybrids for the green crowd, and the new Fusion styling (which apparently will be Ford's global look) is getting good reviews.

For performance, in the US Ford only really concentrates on the Mustang. I don't think the Taurus SHO is sellling very well, but I don't think Ford really cares. I think they want the Fusion and Focus to be the volume cars.

The Fiesta isn't really selling that well here. A Focus doesn't cost much more, is a more usable car, and gets comparable fuel economy.

Lincoln's image, on the other hand, is pretty much nonexistent at the moment.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

Ford's image is pretty good at the moment. A lot of people like that Ford didn't take government bailout money (detractors claim that a loan Ford got from the government to develop energy-efficient cars was the same thing, but it really wasn't).

Quality is rising again, they're making profits again, they've got some nice hybrids for the green crowd, and the new Fusion styling (which apparently will be Ford's global look) is getting good reviews.

For performance, in the US Ford only really concentrates on the Mustang. I don't think the Taurus SHO is sellling very well, but I don't think Ford really cares. I think they want the Fusion and Focus to be the volume cars.

The Fiesta isn't really selling that well here. A Focus doesn't cost much more, is a more usable car, and gets comparable fuel economy.

Lincoln's image, on the other hand, is pretty much nonexistent at the moment.

Okay... So cool isn't something associated with Ford in the U.S. Bland would be appropriate. Tepid. Pale. Indifferent.

I think GM make rubbish (apart from the new exciting cadillac's), but they seem pretty cool with the corvette, comaro, CTS-V... and variants. Chrysler also slightly cool. Ford though... just a good business selling volume transportation. They're becoming the new Toyota.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Okay... So cool isn't something associated with Ford in the U.S. Bland would be appropriate. Tepid. Pale. Indifferent.

I think GM make rubbish (apart from the new exciting cadillac's), but they seem pretty cool with the corvette, comaro, CTS-V... and variants. Chrysler also slightly cool. Ford though... just a good business selling volume transportation. They're becoming the new Toyota.

I don't believe that's what I said, and I don't believe that's the perception.

Ford styling is hailed as good and forward-looking, not bland like Toyota. The Camaro looks like a 12 year old's dream. I can't believe it's outselling the Mustang.

If you're just a performance car fan, Mustang offers all you need in the real world. And it's is faster, cheaper, and outhandles the Camaro.

I forgot to mention the SVT Raptor. That's an amazing truck, but I'm not a truck guy.

No, Ford doesn't do like Chevy does and slap an SS badge on every vehicle in the range and hope people will buy it (they don't). I'd like to see some more performance entries, but profitability is what's important at the moment. The economy here is lousy right now. Ford wants to survive, not simply gain the approval of a bunch of Internerds who won't buy a new car.

For performance, Ford North America has the Mustang, Taurus SHO, Raptor SVT, and the Focus ST is coming.

If Ford becomes primarily an enthusiast niche manufacturer, it will die. It has always been a low-priced volume manufacturer. Ever heard of the Model T?

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

I don't believe that's what I said, and I don't believe that's the perception.

Ford styling is hailed as good and forward-looking, not bland like Toyota. The Camaro looks like a 12 year old's dream. I can't believe it's outselling the Mustang.

If you're just a performance car fan, Mustang offers all you need in the real world. And it's is faster, cheaper, and outhandles the Camaro.

I forgot to mention the SVT Raptor. That's an amazing truck, but I'm not a truck guy.

No, Ford doesn't do like Chevy does and slap an SS badge on every vehicle in the range and hope people will buy it (they don't). I'd like to see some more performance entries, but profitability is what's important at the moment. The economy here is lousy right now. Ford wants to survive, not simply gain the approval of a bunch of Internerds who won't buy a new car.

For performance, Ford North America has the Mustang, Taurus SHO, Raptor SVT, and the Focus ST is coming.

If Ford becomes primarily an enthusiast niche manufacturer, it will die. It has always been a low-priced volume manufacturer. Ever heard of the Model T?

I'm not talking styling. Styling is pretty up there with better marques.

But in terms of having a stable of exciting performance cars. Ford is tepid. Luke warm. Bland. Ford have two. The Raptor, the Mustang. The Taurus SHO isn't really a performance car... it needs that performance to haul it's immense weight.

I understand Ford have to be profitable. But GM is also profitable again now. And the biggest again. And they have a number of cool cars, performance cars. Eventually when Ford gets things worked out... they will have to answer these cars. Right now they seem really conservative.

[FPV GTHO]

Dont mistake GM's profitability for them having made good decisions and doing hard work.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

I'm not talking styling. Styling is pretty up there with better marques.

But in terms of having a stable of exciting performance cars. Ford is tepid. Luke warm. Bland. Ford have two. The Raptor, the Mustang. The Taurus SHO isn't really a performance car... it needs that performance to haul it's immense weight.

I understand Ford have to be profitable. But GM is also profitable again now. And the biggest again. And they have a number of cool cars, performance cars. Eventually when Ford gets things worked out... they will have to answer these cars. Right now they seem really conservative.

Right now Ford is more interested in survival than coolness. I don't know about you, but I'm 46 years old. I lived through all the crappy cars of the '70s. Ford got really interesting in the '80s and '90s with Mustangs and Thunderbirds and the original SHO. But then the country became more interested in trucks and SUVs.

The current Mustang is absolutely superb, from the base model up to the GT500. And don't knock the SHO until you've driven one. I'm sure it's not a great handler on a tight course, but the power is pretty amazing.

Ford's current performance lineup blows away anything they've had in the US since the muscle car era, even with no Thunderbird.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

Right now Ford is more interested in survival than coolness. I don't know about you, but I'm 46 years old. I lived through all the crappy cars of the '70s. Ford got really interesting in the '80s and '90s with Mustangs and Thunderbirds and the original SHO. But then the country became more interested in trucks and SUVs.

The current Mustang is absolutely superb, from the base model up to the GT500. And don't knock the SHO until you've driven one. I'm sure it's not a great handler on a tight course, but the power is pretty amazing.

Ford's current performance lineup blows away anything they've had in the US since the muscle car era, even with no Thunderbird.

Ford is already there. But they aren't even trying to offer what they used to. I don't really recall any interesting Ford's from the 80's apart from a certain cool twin turbo V6 T-bird if I'm not mistaken. I'd take a new turbocharged T-Bird over the two-tonne Taurus.

Problem is though... they say they are going to compete against luxury marques... then just reveal a new skin for the Fusion.

[Moby Vic]

The Thunderbird Turbo Coupe had a single-turbo 2.3L four that didn't make as much power as the turbo 2.3 in the Mustang SVO. Starting in the 1989 model year (after a redesign), the Thunderbird S/C featured a supercharged 3.8L six and independent rear suspension, but that was a very heavy car.

There is no Thunderbird now, so you'll have to wait for a new turbocharged T-bird.

Ford is making money now, but not enough to design new chassis, especially while in the middle of consolidating existing chassis.

The Mustang seems to be here to stay, though, and if it stays it will remain rear-wheel drive. My hope is that the Mustang chassis will help save the Falcon as a rear-wheel-drive car and that North America will get another rear-wheel-drive sedan out of it. But I don't see that happening before the 2014 model year at the earliest.

And yes, the Lincoln MKZ is a re-skinned Fusion. Ford claims to be investing $1B in Lincoln. We'll see.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

The Taurus SHO isn't really a performance car... it needs that performance to haul it's immense weight.

Have you driven one? I haven't, but I have driven the Flex and F-150 with the same engine, and they absolutely fly, particularly the Flex. It felt as though it was going to give me whiplash. To suggest it lacks performance is ridiculous. I think Ford should offer the EcoBoost V6 in more vehicles, including the entire Taurus range (just tweak the output in the SHO), a performance version of the Fusion/Mondeo, performance version of the new Ranger, Mustang, Explorer, Edge, Falcon, Expedition, and Navigator. That engine really is that versatile. I would put a 5.0 V8 EcoBoost as an option on F-150, Super Duty, Expedition, Navigator, Falcon, and Mustang.

[Moby Vic]

I test drove an SHO. I didn't really get to test handling, but acceleration is phenomenal. And the one I drove was loaded with options like BLIS and radar cruise control. I felt like I was in an F-4.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by chevypower

Have you driven one? I haven't, but I have driven the Flex and F-150 with the same engine, and they absolutely fly, particularly the Flex. It felt as though it was going to give me whiplash. To suggest it lacks performance is ridiculous. I think Ford should offer the EcoBoost V6 in more vehicles, including the entire Taurus range (just tweak the output in the SHO), a performance version of the Fusion/Mondeo, performance version of the new Ranger, Mustang, Explorer, Edge, Falcon, Expedition, and Navigator. That engine really is that versatile. I would put a 5.0 V8 EcoBoost as an option on F-150, Super Duty, Expedition, Navigator, Falcon, and Mustang.

I'm sure it is a great engine. I watched those videos of Ford hurting that things at every opportunity they had with those F-150 videos. But I was talking power to weight. What is it... a feather under 2 tonne?

I'd like to see it in more applications this engine. Not as much torque as our turbo 6. Enough to burn rubber, but it's more an economical tune than performance tune... which can be rectified, when I'm sure it takes over for the venerable inline 6.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

The Thunderbird Turbo Coupe had a single-turbo 2.3L four that didn't make as much power as the turbo 2.3 in the Mustang SVO. Starting in the 1989 model year (after a redesign), the Thunderbird S/C featured a supercharged 3.8L six and independent rear suspension, but that was a very heavy car.

There is no Thunderbird now, so you'll have to wait for a new turbocharged T-bird.

Ford is making money now, but not enough to design new chassis, especially while in the middle of consolidating existing chassis.

The Mustang seems to be here to stay, though, and if it stays it will remain rear-wheel drive. My hope is that the Mustang chassis will help save the Falcon as a rear-wheel-drive car and that North America will get another rear-wheel-drive sedan out of it. But I don't see that happening before the 2014 model year at the earliest.

And yes, the Lincoln MKZ is a re-skinned Fusion. Ford claims to be investing $1B in Lincoln. We'll see.

The Thunderbird they tried recently with the LS platform looked really cool. But it was made at the end of Ford's dark days, so it never really had a chance.

I find the tbird turbo coupe fascinating, ever since Rutledge Wood on topgear usa bought one for that challenge... and it looked awesome. And it had that sought of look like our in the headlights like our EA Falcon.

Basically it's built off of principals that are popular today. A fun RWD coupe... not too heavy. 4 cyl turbo. (Which Falcon has made possible with the development it's done for that application layout.)

[Moby Vic]

Coupe sales in the US are down, and have been for a while.

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

I'm sure it is a great engine. I watched those videos of Ford hurting that things at every opportunity they had with those F-150 videos. But I was talking power to weight. What is it... a feather under 2 tonne?

I'd like to see it in more applications this engine. Not as much torque as our turbo 6. Enough to burn rubber, but it's more an economical tune than performance tune... which can be rectified, when I'm sure it takes over for the venerable inline 6.

Actually the 3.5L TT Ecoboost makes more torque than the inline 6. 568Nm @ 2500rpm vs 565Nm @ 1950rpm. 90%, or 511Nm are available in the ecoboost from 1700-5000rpm.

[Poetic Justice]

I think it looks classy... Still think it's very BMW.

[SS_01]

I like it, just want to see the inside now.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by SCUD

I think it looks classy... Still think it's very BMW.

Very nice. It isn't glitzy or over styled like the Hyundais.
Be keen to see how it drives and the quality of the interior.

[Moby Vic]

I'm not crazy about the grille, but that's the Kia corporate grille. I'm definitely impressed by the car.