Would this work?

[malazn mafia]

If the transmission of a car, lets say a falcon for instance, was replaced by a large generator, engine tuned for economy and kept at the maximum efficiency rpm, and an electric motor hooked directly to the diff, or one to each axle to power the car, would we have mindblowing acceleration with fuel economy of less than or equal to an N/A 6? Maybe hook in a supercapacitor with a 'go baby go' button on the dash for the renewable shot of 'Nitrous'. No batteries in the equation as current technology still means they are useless dead weights.

[redxm]

Nah
too much loss. You cant have energy conversion (mechanical to electrical) without loss.
The dude who solves this will be shot by oil companies.

[peter1953]

This is how the ""diesel"" locomotives in Qld work. The diesel runs a generator which powers electric motors at the axles.

[2011G6E]

It would actually work pretty well.

You would need a diesel though...you only need a narrow band of power production from the engine, feeding the generator.
The 140ltr V12 turbo diesels in our locomotives out here idle at something like a few hundred RPM and peak out at 900rpm. You only need that but you have to have a suitably efficient generator.

The one in the diesel loco's out here run the engine depending on load from the drive wheels...you can slap the throttle from zero to eight notches, but the big engine won't immediately scream its head off...it ramps up as power is fed to the wheels by the field generator.

In a car, you could do it, but it wouldn't be "staggering acceleration"...you would have to be accepting of gentle acceleration...stupendously efficient, but hardly awe-inspiring to drive.

If you wanted "fast acceleration" then you have to have an accumulator in the system...a battery in other words...to throw the power out in a big lump when demanded as you floor the accelerator.


And by that stage it all starts to get very heavy and less efficient...

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

It would actually work pretty well.

You would need a diesel though...you only need a narrow band of power production from the engine, feeding the generator.
The 140ltr V12 turbo diesels in our locomotives out here idle at something like a few hundred RPM and peak out at 900rpm. You only need that but you have to have a suitably efficient generator.

The one in the diesel loco's out here run the engine depending on load from the drive wheels...you can slap the throttle from zero to eight notches, but the big engine won't immediately scream its head off...it ramps up as power is fed to the wheels by the field generator.

In a car, you could do it, but it wouldn't be "staggering acceleration"...you would have to be accepting of gentle acceleration...stupendously efficient, but hardly awe-inspiring to drive.

If you wanted "fast acceleration" then you have to have an accumulator in the system...a battery in other words...to throw the power out in a big lump when demanded as you floor the accelerator.


And by that stage it all starts to get very heavy and less efficient...

Supercapacitor or a series of them would help to get things moving along without the stupid battery weights

[MAD]

In a very simplistic view, the slower a big diesel runs, the more efficient they are.

The Sea Princess ocean liner runs the same way (Diesel/Electric). Just much bigger.
I can't remember the exact specs but it was something like 200,000 Nm @ 500 rpm or so.

[Crazy Dazz]

It does work, especially with modern A/C drives, however you need massive capacitors to take full advantage especially for regenerative braking.
And yes, you need an ultra-low-revving diesel to take best advantage.

[2011G6E]

How big a capacitor would you be talking about though? I don't mean "big" as in voltage, I mean "big" as in physical size?

There's no such thing as a free lunch...the laws of physics don't allow it, despite what hundreds of salesmen of under bonnet hydrogen generators and other magical flim-flam wallet-emptying devices would have to believe...

[MAD]

It could work, but the gain in efficiency of the engine running at constant peak torque, would have to overcome the in-efficiency of the power conversion.

[73gscoupe]

holden volt long range. petrol engine generator electric motor. basically what you are describing. you need batteries however to cater for the fluctuating power demands of a car.

locos are different, the power demand does not fluctuate (rapidly) hence they can run a diesel generator to electric motor system. it doesnt need to cater for quick changes in power demand.

i would be very suprised if this system didnt become commonplace going forward, you use a super efficient ic motor to generate a baseline of power, and then your battery storage to cater for the peaks and dips. has significant benefits for efficiency, packaging, and drivability. gm have already hinted this is what they expect the next evolution to be, the volt is primarily to develop the tech for the next generation.

[wodahs]

yes it works been don in a few of u.s. shows
well not the way you state but only need a small motor to run gen set and elec motor into a gear box
don't need a huge elec motor and can have solar to help charge setup for elec motor

[Pepscobra]

Isn't this how the large earth-movers on mine sites work?
I think their diesel engine is just to power the generator that produces electricity for two electric motors at the rear wheels.
At the moment, the equipment is still too big to be efficient in everyday cars, however In time the technology will improve and who nows.

[wodahs]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

Isn't this how the large earth-movers on mine sites work?
I think their diesel engine is just to power the generator that produces electricity for two electric motors at the rear wheels.
At the moment, the equipment is still too big to be efficient in everyday cars, however In time the technology will improve and who nows.

some not all
cats still run motor gear box diff
not shore if its komatsu (think so) run motor genset wheel motors the chassis looks real weird when we cart them of the wharf bare
diesel electric locos fun this way big diesel motor runs genset runs the rail wheels both front n rear of loco (which end is the front ?) the long nose on a loco is the motor n genset then the drivers cab then the small nose is the dunny
yep im ex w.a.g.r.

[2011G6E]

You have to remember also that your hypothetical Falcon won't have the beloved six cylinder engine...it wouldn't need it. The engine would be matched to the required output of the generator to provide the best outcome.

So yes, it could work, but your "EcoFalcon" (tm) would most likely have a small turbo diesel three or four cylinder engine...no real need for a big heavy iron six cylinder engine hanging out the front end. This also gives more room for the associated engineering and do-dads that come with the system.
I imagine that without a driveshaft, there's a great big empty space there to fit the capacitor and goodies, freeing up some more space.

Other than that...great idea.


By the way, what class loco's were those? Our diesel electrics have the crew cabin at the front, the dunny is behind you in the entranceway, and the whole back end of the locomotive is the huge diesel and generator and other equipment. There's no "nose" on our 4000 and 4100 series locos, and the older 1700 to 2400 series have a small "nose" in front of the cabin, but that's for the air conditioning unit. The only way the long engine compartment could be called "the front" is if you are driving long end leading, which is bad because you can't see bugger all. The end with the cabin is the "front" or "number one end"

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

You have to remember also that your hypothetical Falcon won't have the beloved six cylinder engine...it wouldn't need it. The engine would be matched to the required output of the generator to provide the best outcome.

So yes, it could work, but your "EcoFalcon" (tm) would most likely have a small turbo diesel three or four cylinder engine...no real need for a big heavy iron six cylinder engine hanging out the front end. This also gives more room for the associated engineering and do-dads that come with the system.
I imagine that without a driveshaft, there's a great big empty space there to fit the capacitor and goodies, freeing up some more space.

Other than that...great idea.


By the way, what class loco's were those? Our diesel electrics have the crew cabin at the front, the dunny is behind you in the entranceway, and the whole back end of the locomotive is the huge diesel and generator and other equipment. There's no "nose" on our 4000 and 4100 series locos, and the older 1700 to 2400 series have a small "nose" in front of the cabin, but that's for the air conditioning unit. The only way the long engine compartment could be called "the front" is if you are driving long end leading, which is bad because you can't see bugger all. The end with the cabin is the "front" or "number one end"

A 1000amp 750nm DC motor from the states is roughly 6k, a dc controller a few more thousand. This motor is good to move a 4 ton vehicle with ease. Would need a good controller as the instant 750nm of torque could quite literally tear the driveline and axles apart. There is a 'Ronaele' electric powered mustang in the states but it is battery powered and the acceleration is phenomenal but only good for about 2 runs down the quarter because of current battery tech limitations.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

If the transmission of a car, lets say a falcon for instance, was replaced by a large generator, engine tuned for economy and kept at the maximum efficiency rpm, and an electric motor hooked directly to the diff, or one to each axle to power the car, would we have mindblowing acceleration with fuel economy of less than or equal to an N/A 6? Maybe hook in a supercapacitor with a 'go baby go' button on the dash for the renewable shot of 'Nitrous'. No batteries in the equation as current technology still means they are useless dead weights.

Hehehehe....

You've just described how the current Toyota Hybrid cars work.

Why don't you just buy a Camry Hybrid and put some performance options into it?

Wouldn't take much to absolutely flog a V8 with a Camry and a souped up electric drive.

Oh...forget the capacitor...not needed.

Remember that the batteries are a capacitor....so....

You pull up at the lights with a fully charged battery...floor it and get about 30 seconds of insane current draw and horsepower.

You then get to the next set of lights and sit in traffic for about 3 minutes...all the while your batteries are being recharged.

Lights go green and you drain them again.

And so forth and so forth.....it's all about the duty cycle versus performance boost time.

Get the latest Lithium Phosphate batteries with an insane discharge curve and half the engineering is taken care of.

Or...get a front wheel drive turbo Mondeo...fit a set of electric motors on the rear and pull away at a furious electric all wheel drive rate.

Once doing 70km/h who needs all wheel drive?...switch off and recharge while cruising.


Just an extract of a rant we had over a few beers some months ago...

[wodahs]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

You have to remember also that your hypothetical Falcon won't have the beloved six cylinder engine...it wouldn't need it. The engine would be matched to the required output of the generator to provide the best outcome.

So yes, it could work, but your "EcoFalcon" (tm) would most likely have a small turbo diesel three or four cylinder engine...no real need for a big heavy iron six cylinder engine hanging out the front end. This also gives more room for the associated engineering and do-dads that come with the system.
I imagine that without a driveshaft, there's a great big empty space there to fit the capacitor and goodies, freeing up some more space.

Other than that...great idea.


By the way, what class loco's were those? Our diesel electrics have the crew cabin at the front, the dunny is behind you in the entranceway, and the whole back end of the locomotive is the huge diesel and generator and other equipment. There's no "nose" on our 4000 and 4100 series locos, and the older 1700 to 2400 series have a small "nose" in front of the cabin, but that's for the air conditioning unit. The only way the long engine compartment could be called "the front" is if you are driving long end leading, which is bad because you can't see bugger all. The end with the cabin is the "front" or "number one end"

that sounds like our xa series but they had a drivers cab each end (its only been 25 odd years) the L class small end had a step down into the area from the drivers cabin and in there

but back to the thread you could also use a spray on solar panel (donno how it works just read something on it) thingie and thus limiting more use on the engine use aswell

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

Isn't this how the large earth-movers on mine sites work?
I think their diesel engine is just to power the generator that produces electricity for two electric motors at the rear wheels.
At the moment, the equipment is still too big to be efficient in everyday cars, however In time the technology will improve and who nows.

Yes, some of the Haulpaks are still diesel-electric, Terex & Komhatsu are the main ones, although I believe Caterpillar were also bringing out A/C trucks. They all use a GE system, which is similar to what GE use in their Locos.
Ironically, the principle advantage of Diesel-electric in a Haul Truck is the DOWNhill speed. Cats use engine braking on the long downhill runs, and are usually restricted to 1st or 2nd gear, which limits the speed. Electric trucks can proceed at maximum safe speed and ride the dynamic brakes all the way down.
I don’t know if they still use capacitors, as it has been a long time since I actually worked on them. In those days the old DC halpaks had a massive capacity bank under the tray that had to be drained before we could work on them
These are MASSIVE systems, and I think we’re still a long way from scaling them down far enough to use in a car. Buses will probably be the first passenger vehicles with this technology.

Originally Posted by zilo

Hehehehe....

You've just described how the current Toyota Hybrid cars work.

No, what the OP is talking about is I think technically referred to as a “hyper” drive.
In a hybrid drive, the electric traction motor is connected in parallel with the petrol engine. Under hard acceleration it adds power to the engine’s output, under braking it drains power and charges the battery. I think in the latest versions it can also operate without the petrol engine? This approach allows Toyota to leverage off existing technology for their engines and drive train. It also uses only a single electric traction motor.

In a “hyper” drive such as the OP describes, there is no direct connection from the engine to the wheels. However I still think it is going to be dependent on batteries to store the charge.

[Madaya]

Always an interesting topic. Just my two bits worth.
We all know that fuel economy in any car suffers with the stop start driving around town.
My thoughts revolve around a light weight electric accumulator that is 'filled' by regenerative braking and maybe leeching a bit off the engine. Whether an efficient battery or a bank of super caps, doesn't matter, but doesn't have to be big and heavy. Most short burst acceleration lasts several seconds, until cruising speed is achieved. If only part of the load can be fed into the driveline during that time by a small electric motor, a small, but noticeable jump in fuel economy would be seen - unless of course, the driver uses the 'boost' power for rapid acceleration.
All up weight could be less than 50kg, a lot less than the battery weights of current hybrids, and a lot cheaper - even the old lead acid batts could do the job - maybe the motor (starter motor) could be driving the flywheel.
Just need to beef up the ring gear, solenoid clutches and such. Its only going to be in demand for several seconds at a time.