Barra inlet Manifold - Back to back testing

[HI PSI]

I have recently been made aware, of the development of a new intake manifold for our beloved Barra's. Development is well advanced, with a 3D printing version (PLA) being scheduled for completion next week. This is to ensure correct fitment, prior to the first units being manufactured.

During my conversations with the developer, I managed to convinced him to
do back to back testing of all the aftermarket (And standard FG) intake manifolds. Despite great costs involved, he has kindly offered to share the results with the community once completed. In saying that, he wants to ensure that the testing will result in accurate and irrefutable data.

Currently, the following brands/models will be tested:

Hypertune
Plazmaman Race series
Plazmaman XR6 plenum
Process West plenum, and
FG Xr6t plenum.

* We would greatly appreciate a loan of a Nizpro manifold.. As we would like to add it to the list. If that helps ease the mind of potential sources, please know that I am loaning my Plazmaman race series plenum for testing....

To ensure accuracy, testing will be carried out on an engine dyno, as this will be easiest and fastest method of changing the manifolds. It will also ensure that there are no disputes regarding dyno ramp rates and ensure that tyre slippage is eliminated.

A Motec EMS will be used, with EGT's fitted to each exhaust runner, to monitor individual cylinder temperature (All data logged). An air temperature sensor will be fitted to the cold side of the intercooler piping and logged. Cam, ignition advance and fuel pressure will be set and not modified for the duration of the testing (logged also). Boost will be gate pressure only.

Given that each manifold will have varying efficiency, only the base fuel map will be modified to achieve the correct target AFR, for all manifold testing. Injectors will be batch fired with zero trim and other than some minor intercooler piping changes, nothing else will be changed.......

All data will be logged, correlated and screenshots uploaded for all to see.

We think that we have come up with a fair and unbiased testing methodology, but we would like input on areas that may be improved.

[malazn mafia]

3d Printed Manifolds for the Barra 6? Wow that's a new avenue for 3d printing. I won't be satisfied until one day we can 3d print Barra 6 blocks and heads out of Iron or Aluminum to our hearts' content and install them into whatever vehicle we want.

[HI PSI]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

3d Printed Manifolds for the Barra 6? Wow that's a new avenue for 3d printing. I won't be satisfied until one day we can 3d print Barra 6 blocks and heads out of Iron or Aluminum to our hearts' content and install them into whatever vehicle we want.

It is being printed in PLA (Plastic), so that it can be trial fitted. Once he's happy, they will be manufactured...

[HI PSI]

Well, it looks like there is no interest or uptake. And I'm kind of over it, so results will not be posted.

[ba-wagon]

Oh no!
This sounds very interesting.

[Falcon SXR8]

Only just seen this, would have been interesting I would have thought

[sexyxe]

I think the results would be interesting to see.

[.:4:.]

I do electrical work for an engineer company who bought a small 3d printer for the staff to play with. Some of their cad designs come up great. I'm thinking an intake manifold with the sydney opera house on top.... that aside, it's a smart way of developing ideas before making moulds and castings, and being able to bench test before spending huge amounts

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by HI PSI

I have recently been made aware, of the development of a new intake manifold for our beloved Barra's. Development is well advanced, with a 3D printing version (PLA) being scheduled for completion next week. This is to ensure correct fitment, prior to the first units being manufactured.

During my conversations with the developer, I managed to convinced him to
do back to back testing of all the aftermarket (And standard FG) intake manifolds. Despite great costs involved, he has kindly offered to share the results with the community once completed. In saying that, he wants to ensure that the testing will result in accurate and irrefutable data.

Currently, the following brands/models will be tested:

Hypertune
Plazmaman Race series
Plazmaman XR6 plenum
Process West plenum, and
FG Xr6t plenum.

* We would greatly appreciate a loan of a Nizpro manifold.. As we would like to add it to the list. If that helps ease the mind of potential sources, please know that I am loaning my Plazmaman race series plenum for testing....

To ensure accuracy, testing will be carried out on an engine dyno, as this will be easiest and fastest method of changing the manifolds. It will also ensure that there are no disputes regarding dyno ramp rates and ensure that tyre slippage is eliminated.

A Motec EMS will be used, with EGT's fitted to each exhaust runner, to monitor individual cylinder temperature (All data logged). An air temperature sensor will be fitted to the cold side of the intercooler piping and logged. Cam, ignition advance and fuel pressure will be set and not modified for the duration of the testing (logged also). Boost will be gate pressure only.

Given that each manifold will have varying efficiency, only the base fuel map will be modified to achieve the correct target AFR, for all manifold testing. Injectors will be batch fired with zero trim and other than some minor intercooler piping changes, nothing else will be changed.......

All data will be logged, correlated and screenshots uploaded for all to see.

We think that we have come up with a fair and unbiased testing methodology, but we would like input on areas that may be improved.

I just wanted to comment on the 'fair and unbiased testing method' you describe. I don't believe it's reasonable, as it does not represent the final use of the product in question. Specifically, I think it's unreasonable to lock out cam timing, ignition advance and use batch fire injection.

If someone is going to the trouble of changing their intake manifold in search of performance, they will undoubtedly be getting a custom tune in order to maximise the benefits of the change. As such, any testing for product comparison purposes should likewise seek to optimise all the other parameters in order to demonstrate the TRUE benefits and drawbacks of the product in question. To not do so would potentially cover up potential short-comings AND advantages of not only the new product but also of the existing products/factory pieces.

Even if results are not posted here, the developers should be using a more in depth, fully optimised tests in order to avoid 'lying to themselves'.

[Sorted]

Manufactures do not want to be tested against the competition.

As they want their $1,500 for a bit of metal lol

Just like the Air Box's $650 WTF

Plenty people making Air Boxes for $200 to $300 now

The Street Fighter Air Box and the SS Growler Air Box are the only ones that should attract a higher price as they are actually custom made not a few its of straight cut metal or plastic.

[HI PSI]

Originally Posted by madmelon

I just wanted to comment on the 'fair and unbiased testing method' you describe. I don't believe it's reasonable, as it does not represent the final use of the product in question. Specifically, I think it's unreasonable to lock out cam timing, ignition advance and use batch fire injection.

If someone is going to the trouble of changing their intake manifold in search of performance, they will undoubtedly be getting a custom tune in order to maximise the benefits of the change. As such, any testing for product comparison purposes should likewise seek to optimise all the other parameters in order to demonstrate the TRUE benefits and drawbacks of the product in question. To not do so would potentially cover up potential short-comings AND advantages of not only the new product but also of the existing products/factory pieces.

Even if results are not posted here, the developers should be using a more in depth, fully optimised tests in order to avoid 'lying to themselves'.

Changing parameters, like ignition timing, cam timing and sequential injection will only provide inaccurate results. All plenums MUST be tested on set parameters so that a true representation of the plenum design, efficiency, strengths and shortcomings can be obtained. This is the only way to provide a fair and impartial test of the inlets.

I have had some input from another forum and they suggested that we set ty he first test boost to 20 psi and then another at an even higher level. I feel that this is a good idea and as the engine is running a VERY big turbo. It is more than capable of achieving 1500 hp and more. ..

[STINKY NINJA]

Originally Posted by Sorted

Manufactures do not want to be tested against the competition.

As they want their $1,500 for a bit of metal lol

Just like the Air Box's $650 WTF

Plenty people making Air Boxes for $200 to $300 now

The Street Fighter Air Box and the SS Growler Air Box are the only ones that should attract a higher price as they are actually custom made not a few its of straight cut metal or plastic.

AMEN to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[STINKY NINJA]

Originally Posted by HI PSI

Well, it looks like there is no interest or uptake. And I'm kind of over it, so results will not be posted.

Its only been a few days?
Hate to see you try and sell a car thesedays...

[HI PSI]

Originally Posted by STINKY NINJA

Its only been a few days?
Hate to see you try and sell a car thesedays...

Only telling it like it is.. Look at the forum, there are very few threads of real interest. And you guys wonder why.....

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by HI PSI

Well, it looks like there is no interest or uptake. And I'm kind of over it, so results will not be posted.

No one will lend me their intake manifold they paid for with their own hard earned.

So im taking my bat and my ball and going home!

How about for the sake of the test you buy a Nizpro intake manifold?

[ratter]

Doing a test with a set of controlled parameters is great but not entirely accurate.
The back to back with a set of controlled parameters yes should be done, but also tests showing what each one is actually capable of achieving in the right environment, even changing the plenum volume can affect the tune which should be adjusted for when tuning

[STINKY NINJA]

Originally Posted by HI PSI

Only telling it like it is.. Look at the forum, there are very few threads of real interest. And you guys wonder why.....

Why come here asking for help then?
People ask the questions they need answered,they don't need to be interesting.
Not everyone is chasing a heap of hp.
Rather than waste time making special manifolds just go and buy an fg inlet manifold and be done with it,we all know they are good for bulk hp and only cost $600

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

How about for the sake of the test you buy a Nizpro intake manifold?

BA or FG manifold?

[HI PSI]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

No one will lend me their intake manifold they paid for with their own hard earned.

So im taking my bat and my ball and going home!

How about for the sake of the test you buy a Nizpro intake manifold?

Firstly, I am not the one doing the testing. Nor am I the one paying for it.

Secondly, I am providing my Plazmaman Race Series plenum for the test. So, I am putting up my hard earned already. Besides criticism, what are contributing.

[HI PSI]

Originally Posted by STINKY NINJA

Why come here asking for help then?
People ask the questions they need answered,they don't need to be interesting.
Not everyone is chasing a heap of hp.
Rather than waste time making special manifolds just go and buy an fg inlet manifold and be done with it,we all know they are good for bulk hp and only cost $600

I didn't come here asking for help. I posted and offered to share the results of the testing and I asked if the testing methodological was sound. As it would be a waste of time, if the everyone wasn't happy with the way that the testing was conducted.

Btw, not everyone is happy with the performance of a FG plenum. And that's why I don't run one. .

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by HI PSI

Besides criticism, what are contributing.

See how my forum username is purple and below it is a flag, thats what I contribute to this forum

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by HI PSI

Firstly, I am not the one doing the testing. Nor am I the one paying for it.

Secondly, I am providing my Plazmaman Race Series plenum for the test. So, I am putting up my hard earned already. Besides criticism, what are contributing.

You have to consider, how many people on here have purchased an aftermarket manifold, let alone a Nizpro.
and of those who is willing to take theirs off their car and hand it to unknown so they can reverse engineer it?

don't be upset by that..

I don't know a lot about intake Plenums, but this has me sold.
http://www.nizpro.com.au/products/plenums/

I recon you would struggle to build a better one - 3D printer or not

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by HI PSI

I didn't come here asking for help. ...

I asked if the testing methodological was sound.

Most would call that asking for help...

Moreover, don't ask for such help if you are then going to dismiss what's contributed by those who respond.

There have been examples on this forum of people getting far less than optimum performance from particular header systems on B series V8s which, when installed without a tune provide 'reasonable' results but when it comes to tuning, find very limited further gains. Upon changing to a different system, the tuning potential was drastically increased- on the order of 15-25kW at peak (and gains throughout the rev range) if I remember correctly.

This is why it's important to not simply 'lock out' tune-able parameters but maximise performance with each one- you don't know what you're leaving on the table when you deliberately choke performance.

Ratter and I have both provided basically the same feedback. He's been very prolific on this forum and obviously has plenty of experience with the aftermarket. I'm not as vocal here but my experience is in Formula motorsport and as an engineer for a massive global automotive consultancy.

[HI PSI]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

See how my forum username is purple and below it is a flag, thats what I contribute to this forum

Oh!!! My apologies, I didn't notice your god status. Wait a minute while I drop to my knees and start chanting your name.

If you took the time to get over yourself, you would have realised that I was referring to the testing.... But, I don't expect someone like yourself to understand.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by HI PSI

Oh!!! My apologies, I didn't notice your god status. Wait a minute while I drop to my knees and start chanting your name.

If you took the time to get over yourself, you would have realised that I was referring to the testing.... But, I don't expect someone like yourself to understand.

You asked a deliberately inflammatory question; you received an answer. If you want to play sarcasm then perhaps try it on me instead and see how that works out for you.

Russ

[HI PSI]

Originally Posted by madmelon

Most would call that asking for help...

Moreover, don't ask for such help if you are then going to dismiss what's contributed by those who respond.

There have been examples on this forum of people getting far less than optimum performance from particular header systems on B series V8s which, when installed without a tune provide 'reasonable' results but when it comes to tuning, find very limited further gains. Upon changing to a different system, the tuning potential was drastically increased- on the order of 15-25kW at peak (and gains throughout the rev range) if I remember correctly.

This is why it's important to not simply 'lock out' tune-able parameters but maximise performance with each one- you don't know what you're leaving on the table when you deliberately choke performance.

Ratter and I have both provided basically the same feedback. He's been very prolific on this forum and obviously has plenty of experience with the aftermarket. I'm not as vocal here but my experience is in Formula motorsport and as an engineer for a massive global automotive consultancy.

The test mule is a heavily modified engine, with HUGE cams and vernier gears. I cannot see changing cams timing as be a practical exercise.. We will be using a Motec EMS to run engine. At this point we are leaning to provide testing to mimic the functionality of a factory computer and changing this would not give a true and accurate representation of the real world operation that the majority of users would likely see.

I do hear what you are saying, but our primary interest is the airflow characteristics and identifying the shortcomings of each manifold. What we are trying to avoid is any implications or accusation of manipulation of the aforementioned variables, to make one brand perform better than another.. Now, imagine that we used your suggestions and old mates new plenum achieved the highest result.....

It has been suggested that we test at 20 psi and then at a much higher level and we are happy taken this on board. As mentioned earlier, the engine is more than capable. I will put this to the owner, as it is his decision to make..

Thank you for your input.

[HI PSI]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

You have to consider, how many people on here have purchased an aftermarket manifold, let alone a Nizpro.
and of those who is willing to take theirs off their car and hand it to unknown so they can reverse engineer it?

don't be upset by that..

I don't know a lot about intake Plenums, but this has me sold.
http://www.nizpro.com.au/products/plenums/

I recon you would struggle to build a better one - 3D printer or not

I think that you would be surprised at how many aftermarket plenums are actually floating around out there. Think about it, if there was not a market for them there would not be anywhere near the amount of manufactures.

We already have aftermarket manifolds that are far superior to the Nizpro unit. When I say superior, I mean that they can develop more hp for much less boost. The new manifold is vastly different design to what is currently available to the Barra engines... So have no fear, we have absolutely no interest in reverse engineering a Nizpro plenum. We just thought that it would be nice to add it to the test list, as others would likely be interested.

This is a dated pic of my manifold...

[HI PSI]

Originally Posted by russellw

You asked a deliberately inflammatory question; you received an answer. If you want to play sarcasm then perhaps try it on me instead and see how that works out for you.

Russ

I take it that you did not see any sarcasm in his post? Really?

I simply clarified my existing contribution to the testing process. If he is not willing to actively participate in the process or be constructive, then maybe he should have kept it to himself.

[HI PSI]

Originally Posted by ratter

Doing a test with a set of controlled parameters is great but not entirely accurate.
The back to back with a set of controlled parameters yes should be done, but also tests showing what each one is actually capable of achieving in the right environment, even changing the plenum volume can affect the tune which should be adjusted for when tuning

Base maps will be tailored to each plenum, to allow for the differing attributes. Nothing else will be changed.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by HI PSI

I take it that you did not see any sarcasm in his post? Really?

I simply clarified my existing contribution to the testing process. If he is not willing to actively participate in the process or be constructive, then maybe he should have kept it to himself.

Here's a news flash for you. This thread has basically been about your self aggrandisement and anyone who has had the temerity to offer an alternate point of view that doesn't sit with your agenda has been shot down.

I see no value in it continuing.

Closed.