Final Commodore LS3 304kw 570nm

[Express]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Wasn't there a saying in 'Murrica " Thar ain't no substitute for cubic feet"

[asagaai]

Way I see it, the new SS with LS3 is a very good package and if you are just going for a standard car, may be a better overall package than the Miami Ford.

But if you aim to do basic external patch on mods, and actually use the Miami as designed, ie 1000 jets, smaller pulley for good boost, tune, walbro pump, you are able to get easy reliable big power with the Miami and the 4 valves come into their own with this increased boost and revs with tune. The Miamis forged crank, rods, proper decompressed and strengthened pistons means you can get safe big power.

This is the real advantage IMO of the Miami- very big reliable power pretty cheap, and the cost of a bigger engine is dwarfed by the benefits of the big reliable power potential.

LS3 does not have same envelope cause of the lack of forged internals and decompressed strengthened pistons (if you go the bolt on super route), and lack of 4 valves which will really pay off with higher boost and increased revs the Miami can safely be ratched up to.

So yeah- basic standard car, LS3 Commodore is a pretty persuasive package now.

But, if you are wanting to do mods of the minor add on external bolt on type, and wanting big power reliable and relatively cheap-Miami all the way.

[gcg2503]

Spent a couple of hours with a VF 11 SSV Redline wagon a few weeks back.

The sound is highly addictive.

A great package...hard to chose a FGX interior over a VF 2.

[701let]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Way I see it, the new SS with LS3 is a very good package and if you are just going for a standard car, may be a better overall package than the Miami Ford.

But if you aim to do basic external patch on mods, and actually use the Miami as designed, ie 1000 jets, smaller pulley for good boost, tune, walbro pump, you are able to get easy reliable big power with the Miami and the 4 valves come into their own with this increased boost and revs with tune. The Miamis forged crank, rods, proper decompressed and strengthened pistons means you can get safe big power.

This is the real advantage IMO of the Miami- very big reliable power pretty cheap, and the cost of a bigger engine is dwarfed by the benefits of the big reliable power potential.

LS3 does not have same envelope cause of the lack of forged internals and decompressed strengthened pistons (if you go the bolt on super route), and lack of 4 valves which will really pay off with higher boost and increased revs the Miami can safely be ratched up to.

So yeah- basic standard car, LS3 Commodore is a pretty persuasive package now.

But, if you are wanting to do mods of the minor add on external bolt on type, and wanting big power reliable and relatively cheap-Miami all the way.

Not really sure what you are saying as it's almost quite the opposite regarding the Ls3. It's a fantastic base to start for modifications.

Plenty of them running around, reliably, making great power with bolt on supercharger kits. Even cam only the bang for your buck is good.

Its in standard form that they are a bit underwhelming. Well compared to a Miami anyway. And it's the roll on acceleration here and just the torque down low that I'm really talking about as the 0-100 and 0-400 times are fairly close but I don't really think that tells the story

[GTP534]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Now you mention it the instrument dials are a bit busy, a bit ugly, difficult to read.

I've had my VF for about 9 months now and have barely glanced at them cause I've got the head-up display. Some call it a gimmick, but whatever - it's just awesome. I really do notice how much you have to look away from the road to constantly check your speed in camera-infested Victoria whenever I drive a different car now.

Talking gimmick - one of the head up's pages shows a G-Force meter. Throw it round a corner and it'll display how many G's you pulled - it stays up for a few seconds so you get a chance to read it. In 9 months of ownership I've used it precisely once, but hope to again in the near future...

I haven't driven a car with a heads up display but one of the great features in the FG is the digital speedo smack between the main dials. I find that really useful in the R-Spec and our Territory.

Another nice touch is the cruise control; if you hold the + or - button a bit longer the speed setting will jump in 10kmh increments. Very useful on the Motorways.

[Express]

Originally Posted by GTP534

I haven't driven a car with a heads up display but one of the great features in the FG is the digital speedo smack between the main dials. I find that really useful in the R-Spec and our Territory.

Another nice touch is the cruise control; if you hold the + or - button a bit longer the speed setting will jump in 10kmh increments. Very useful on the Motorways.

I agree with you that large digital speedo readouts in the centre of the dials are a great feature and make it easy to quickly track your speed.

The Commodore has had this feature since 2006 with the introduction of the VE and now with the heads up display it comes with the added function of having the posted speed limit circled under the actual vehicle speed which I think if it is as accurate as it appears to be is fantastic.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by 701let

Not really sure what you are saying as it's almost quite the opposite regarding the Ls3. It's a fantastic base to start for modifications.

I've never heard someone claim an LS3 is better off left stock, until now I'd be more inclined to leave the Ford alone. The Commodore platform is more suited to high power out of the box, particularly without a dodgy CB rear end to deal with. The SS will put the power down and won't need rock hard bushes and rebuilt cradles to do it reliably. The Fords are quick enough from factory for most people anyway.

[nz13boy]

Originally Posted by mik

well lets call apples for apples, to be fair the holden has a 20 odd percent bigger cube sized engine, so that certainly should whittle down some advantage of the blower on the ford..

Yip, valid point. And as someone else mentioned, the Xr8 is miles quicker in the 80-120 stakes. Certainly more relevant in the real world then other measures.

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by nz13boy

Yip, valid point. And as someone else mentioned, the Xr8 is miles quicker in the 80-120 stakes. Certainly more relevant in the real world then other measures.

Here in the unreal Australia doing 80 – 120 is not allowed in many places and will find you in trouble with the law.

[nz13boy]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

Here in the unreal Australia doing 80 – 120 is not allowed in many places and will find you in trouble with the law.

Actually, theres a state in this country with roads that allow you to do 80-120 LEGALLY.

Not that I'm trying to give you a geography lesson or anything.

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by nz13boy

Actually, theres a state in this country with roads that allow you to do 80-120 LEGALLY.

Not that I'm trying to give you a geography lesson or anything.

You’re ok mate I’m happy to have the geography lesson as none of us are ever too old to learn.

That state or should I say Territory where almost all Australians live does make your point very relevant in the real world.

I'm sure a lot of drivers pop over there to legally do a 80 - 120

I'll add a little to my argument by pointing out that any road that allows you to do 120 would more than likely be classified as a Freeway and any of us who have travelled on a freeway probably see the owners of XR8's slowing to 80 and briskly accelerating to 120 all day, every day of the week.

When I see drivers accelerate hard it's usually falls somewhere from 0 to just above the speed limit to about 70 or from 60 to 100 or 110 when using an onramp to access a Freeway and most of those onramps are single lanes.

I do agree with you that the XR8 is quicker in the 80 - 120 zone but I don't see it as being any more relevant over any other speed zones that you care to mention.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

I do agree with you that the XR8 is quicker in the 80 - 120 zone but I don't see it as being any more relevant over any other speed zones that you care to mention.

Well it is more relevant in that it is the considered measure for overtaking ability, and as such is probably more relevant than 0-100.

[Big_Daz]

Originally Posted by nz13boy

Yip, valid point. And as someone else mentioned, the Xr8 is miles quicker in the 80-120 stakes. Certainly more relevant in the real world then other measures.

I thought Blown 5 litre and NA 6.2 litre would be a fair comparison.. If we where talking about the LSA (Blown 6.2 Litre) then maybe not a fair comparison...

[Express]

Originally Posted by Big_Daz

I thought Blown 5 litre and NA 6.2 litre would be a fair comparison.. If we where talking about the LSA (Blown 6.2 Litre) then maybe not a fair comparison...

I would have thought not.

Forced induction and naturally aspirated engines deliver their power in very different ways plus one is 304kW and the other 335kW though their outputs are also rated differently.

A better match up would have been if the Redline had the also differently rated (higher) 340kW tune the current LS3 Clubsport has.

Still the XR8 and Redline are competing in the same segment and therefore they have no choice but to be compared.

Hence some grab tightly to the dragstrip prowess of one and others the track capabilities of the other.

Two different cars going head to head.

It’s been the same story for as long as cars have been raced.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Express

I agree with you that large digital speedo readouts in the centre of the dials are a great feature and make it easy to quickly track your speed.

The Commodore has had this feature since 2006 with the introduction of the VE and now with the heads up display it comes with the added function of having the posted speed limit circled under the actual vehicle speed which I think if it is as accurate as it appears to be is fantastic.

The head up displays speed limit indicator is as accurate as your sat nav maps are, so generally pretty good. But when a road gets a speed limit change, your head up display will show the old limit until your maps are updated. I'm not sure how frequently this is able to be done.

It's a great feature, accurate most of the time, but not something you can always rely on. Many country roads won't display a limit at all.

[arronm]

Hey its better than constantly looking for signs on the side of the road. When I drive another car other than my redline I am always asking my wife what the speed limit is. Sucks not having it in front of you.

[matador]

Took both SSV redline and fgx xr8 for a drive today, both auto and manual

SSV redline first... Love the features, remote start, head up display, sunroof. The auto was nice but I was flat to the floor and it just didn't wow me. Sounded great but didn't feel incredible. Drive the manual and it was a better drive, more engaging and felt quicker. Felt like it sort of ran out of puff up high in rev range. I walked away thinking I might buy one, great car overall.

Fgx Xr8, lacking in features comparatively but still nice looking. I thought the commodore looked better and had a better interior. Drove the Auto first, wow!! That is a ridiculous fast car, made me completely tolerate any other of its shortfalls. It made this crazy whipping sound as first changed to second and just pulled hard until next change up. That nice bonnet bulge.

Then drove the manual, it just didn't feel as fast as the auto, the commodore felt faster in the manual to be honest, fgx manual didn't feel that great to drive. Auto for me..

Overall if I cannot spend $60k a bare bones SS manual 6.2 at $47990 as quoted will do. If I can afford $60k then the xr8 auto is incredible.

I would never buy the SS redline for same price as the fgx xr8.. A performance muscle car for me is substance over style. That Miami supercharged V8 in an auto is just incredible.

[Sioso]

Here's an SSVR with a Walkinshaw kit - $100K
Bit rich considering it also has over 5,000k's on the clock.
http://www.carsales.com.au/nearnew/d...2113370/?Cr=71

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by matador

Took both SSV redline and fgx xr8 for a drive today, both auto and manual

Drove the Auto first, wow!! That is a ridiculous fast car, made me completely tolerate any other of its shortfalls. It made this crazy whipping sound as first changed to second and just pulled hard until next change up. That nice bonnet bulge.

Then drove the manual, it just didn't feel as fast as the auto, the commodore felt faster in the manual to be honest, fgx manual didn't feel that great to drive. Auto for me..

I would never buy the SS redline for same price as the fgx xr8.. A performance muscle car for me is substance over style. That Miami supercharged V8 in an auto is just incredible.

Interesting- I drove auto FGX XR8 and manual FGX XR8, and my experience was different. The manual pulls a lot harder up higher, and is a lot more toey on throttle.

Although- when I first got my FGX XR8 manual the engine was TIGHT and I kept stalling it cause it was so tight, and it definitely was blunt in pull. With kms kept improving and by 2,000 kms started pulling hard.

When the engine loosens up the manual is a weapon.

How many kms did the manual FGX XR8 have on it when you drove it?

[Express]

Originally Posted by matador

Drive the manual and it was a better drive, more engaging and felt quicker. Felt like it sort of ran out of puff up high in rev range.

?

With those free flowing heads it’s unusual for someone to say the LS3 ran out of puff.

I thought the Redline tune was too soft and it was noticeably sluggish down low but started to get a hurry on up high.

Are you sure it wasn't a VN you tested.

[matador]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Interesting- I drove auto FGX XR8 and manual FGX XR8, and my experience was different. The manual pulls a lot harder up higher, and is a lot more toey on throttle.

Although- when I first got my FGX XR8 manual the engine was TIGHT and I kept stalling it cause it was so tight, and it definitely was blunt in pull. With kms kept improving and by 2,000 kms started pulling hard.

When the engine loosens up the manual is a weapon.

How many kms did the manual FGX XR8 have on it when you drove it?

Manual had 17km on it
Auto had 42km.

Both brand new cars. Still had plastic on seats.

I really wanted the manual to be more fun. I'm a manual guy. I had two passengers in car and they both thought auto was more rapid. Possibly one was over boosting and other not?

[matador]

Originally Posted by Express

?

With those free flowing heads it’s unusual for someone to say the LS3 ran out of puff.

I thought the Redline tune was too soft and it was noticeably sluggish down low but started to get a hurry on up high.

Are you sure it wasn't a VN you tested.

What I mean is that I was absolutely flat in it (SSV redline) and felt the auto in particular sort of lose a bit of its thrust right up top in the rev range. Maybe auto protecting itself? Cuts torque before change up? Otherwise felt like it lost a bit up top.

It was a beautiful car and with SS I'd go manual every day of the week.

There is a clear performance differential in a straight line between xr8 and SSV no doubt in my mind.

For $60k I'd go xr8 all day every day.

But base SS manual for $48k is a top car, $12k less than xr8 I could live with the SS manual.

I'm going to get an xr8 though

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by matador

Manual had 17km on it
Auto had 42km.

Both brand new cars. Still had plastic on seats.

I really wanted the manual to be more fun. I'm a manual guy. I had two passengers in car and they both thought auto was more rapid. Possibly one was over boosting and other not?

Fair enough- I know when I picked up my FGX XR8 from the dealer and drove it round the block and floored it - I was underwhelmed.- it felt gutless and blunt. As I said, very tight and I stalled it a few times.

Later that evening I put 150 very hard km on it, and then it opened up nicely. At the 120 km my km mark, 3rd gear on a patchy road full throttle with traction light flickering and squirrelly at rear as the LSD was doing its thing. (PS- if you are in Newcastle pm me and I will take you for a run in mine- has an intercooler-but even before the intercooler another guy who has been in an Auto FGX XR8 and was in the market commented after I drove him in mine that the manual was more edgy and aggressive - he was after a auto and after he went in mine decided he needed more feral in auto and went for a Shelby mustang- but seriously, if you are in Newie pm me-before you lay your green down and totally discount a manual).

All I know was my machine with 23 OEM km on it new was not the same car compared to the machine with a further 150 km of my uhhh grooming of it .....

[matador]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Fair enough- I know when I picked up my FGX XR8 from the dealer and drove it round the block and floored it - I was underwhelmed.- it felt gutless and blunt. As I said, very tight and I stalled it a few times.

Later that evening I put 150 very hard km on it, and then it opened up nicely. At the 120 km my km mark, 3rd gear on a patchy road full throttle with traction light flickering and squirrelly at rear as the LSD was doing its thing. (PS- if you are in Newcastle pm me and I will take you for a run in mine- has an intercooler-but even before the intercooler another guy who has been in an Auto FGX XR8 and was in the market commented after I drove him in mine that the manual was more edgy and aggressive - he was after a auto and after he went in mine decided he needed more feral in auto and went for a Shelby mustang- but seriously, if you are in Newie pm me-before you lay your green down and totally discount a manual).

All I know was my machine with 23 OEM km on it new was not the same car compared to the machine with a further 150 km of my uhhh grooming of it .....

Thanks for your reply. I pm you

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Not sure if you're trying to tell me I'm wrong, but the XR8 simply isn't "only marginally" quicker than the SS. That's nonsense. My daily is a VF SS and I've tested two SII Redlines and will be ordering a '16 to replace my '14. To start with it's hard to tell the difference between a series 1 and 2- and the 5.0 is much stronger than both. Not just screaming up top in a drag race, but everywhere else too. Low down, no comparison. Mid range, no comparison. That's what a blower does. If we're talking real world roads with real world punters, the XR8 is a comprehensively stronger car and it feels that way on the road.

And here's what I find amusing. The higher output LS3s have been getting comprehensively outrun by XR6Ts, F6s and 5.0s for many years. Now that Holden puts a detuned LS3 in an SS, suddenly it's a different engine? Suddenly the SC 5.0 is only marginally quicker? Get out of town. An XR8 is closer to a GTS than it is to an LS3 SS. And I really couldn't care less what's quicker in a straight line, it's an archaic way of comparing cars but if we're going to rate them like that, there's no denying that the XR8 isn't just marginally better. Take magazine numbers with a grain of salt. Half the time they're using a vbox on a back road with no grip, the rest of the time they're spitting nonsense like "the manual is rated 1 tenth quicker to 100, so it's a faster car over 400m". Where do they find these people? I hate to break it to them, but 0-100km/h is not a measure of distance. 0-400m is- and no manual SS will defeat an automatic in that measure. The quality of automotive journalism in this country is appalling and it's a shame that so many folks take them seriously.

I try to be fair and balanced. Every time someone says an XR8 handles as well as an SS, I tell them they're wrong- because they are. Not just lap time garbage, but how the car feels on the road. No comparison. Same goes for this new wave of folks who are convinced the baby LS3 in the new SS will run with an XR8, they're wrong. Yes I'm sure some people would love to take 5.0 owners down a peg. 5.0 owners love talking up how their cars obliterate V8 Holdens yadda yadda. Well like it or not, they do. And this LS3 update hasn't changed that. There is more than 2 tenths between them over 400m, regardless of what you see in a magazine. I encourage folks to put the magazine down and actually drive them.

Now the conspiracy theory- Holden's auto while pretty good in the VF, still isn't perfect. A manual series II Redline, for it's price, is basically a flawless car. It's got the grunt, the chassis, the technology, the brakes, the looks, the sound, etc. If Holden provided an automatic press car, it's no longer a perfect package because while the auto is pretty good, it's still bettered by the 6HP26 in some departments. I think they'd rather give away a few tenths over 400m than risk the reviewer(s) criticising aspects of the drive due to the transmission, bringing down an otherwise almost-flawless car.

Just to follow up this post. I've noticed that Motor have published a new video of the same XR8 versus a Clubsport and guess what, suddenly the XR8 is well into the 12s. Surprise, surprise. The ridiculous bit? This Clubsport race was conducted on the same day as the SS race.

http://www.motormag.com.au/features/...lsa-drag-race/

So Motor admits that they had the Clubsport & SS on the same day and that the races were done one after the other. Yet somehow the XR8 can only manage 13.25 against the SS (they claim there was a strong headwind, totally explains it, right). Yet in the next race against the Clubsport the XR8 is suddenly good for 12.86. How ridiculous. They simply wanted to publish a close result between the SS and XR8 to get everybody talking. Good job guys, you did well.

Plenty of people on this forum get accused of blaming biased journalism as a lame excuse when these results are published. But really, how do you explain this one away? You can't. Same day, same car, same driver, drastically different results. Notice in the Clubsport video the test driver even says that the XR8 just soundly spanked the SS. Yet the numbers they published don't reflect that at all. Not the first time magazines have played God and it won't be the last.

[FG50T]

What a joke. I re-watched the video against the SS. At the bottom of the picture where the results are posted they put a disclaimer saying "strong headwind". Did the headwind suddenly disappear against the Clubsport?

[Sioso]

Yep, I already explained it on page 8 of this thread.
There was no mention of those XR8's times in the mag.
The media isn't there to inform the public of the truth they are there to sway the masses and make $$$$'s.

[Big_Daz]

Originally Posted by Express

?

With those free flowing heads it’s unusual for someone to say the LS3 ran out of puff.

I thought the Redline tune was too soft and it was noticeably sluggish down low but started to get a hurry on up high.

Are you sure it wasn't a VN you tested.

I was thinking the same thing... That's one thing I noticed in the Commodores ive test Driven recently (VF Series 1 Clubsport R8 Manual with the 340kw motor and now 2 x Series 2 SSV Redlines both manual - haven't tried the auto as I wont be buying one) the fact they love to rev and seemed to go quicker the higher they where revved... It was one of the things I loved about the Commodores to be honest.....

Adrenaline - Not surprised Motor had an LSA Clubsport there as well.. In the magazine they test the Clubsport same time as the SSV and XR8... It does sound like they where doing a dodgy on the times though if the 12 second pass was done same day... Though lets be honest, we all know the XR8 is heaps quicker in a straight line than the SS so no surprise on the 12 second pass.. In fact wasn't it almost as quick in a straight line as the LSA clubby??

[furiousgibbon]

Originally Posted by matador

Manual had 17km on it
Auto had 42km.

Both brand new cars. Still had plastic on seats.

I really wanted the manual to be more fun. I'm a manual guy. I had two passengers in car and they both thought auto was more rapid. Possibly one was over boosting and other not?

I did multiple test drives in auto and manual F6s before I decided on manual. The auto felt so much faster it was like a completely different car. It would drop gears seamlessly as I opened the throttle, so it felt massively responsive. No loss of momentum as it upshifted. The manual actually felt disappointingly slow to me. The auto had too many shortcomings though, no paddle shift, no auto blip on downshift, and too easy to go too fast. Manuals are simple, strong, easy to fix and they take bulk power with less issues and most importantly offer the most driver control. The manual is a quick car once you get used to it.

[Sioso]

Not a bad sound for a Calais Wagon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giSE1qv5GKg