Ford Falcon VS Ford Tuarus

[Rico 110s]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

You are joking :-) if Ford Oz was to go that way it might as well shut the shop.
Which import cars are without electrics and basic. Cars these days sell more on eqipment then anything else.

That my point I am in a 2010 Dmax made of plastic (work car) with electric windows and all sort of options and it does nothing for me, something simple with air and a/c thats all most people really need.
If ford started a model that was completly optioned down I bet they would sell a lot more (lower priced models) cars than they do now, but not sure if they really want to here any more after taking away so many ranges of Falcon based cars.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Id buy an SHO Taurus over an XR6T/G6ET :

Taurus is too big for my tastes, but that same mechanical package in a Fusion/Mondeo would work a treat.

[1TUFFUTE]

saying that aussiea want less tech and cheaper is so far off im laughing. Tech and fuel economy is god my friend. the masses will take smaller engines aswell if it means more cool tech.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Rico 110s

That my point I am in a 2010 Dmax made of plastic (work car) with electric windows and all sort of options and it does nothing for me, something simple with air and a/c thats all most people really need.
If ford started a model that was completly optioned down I bet they would sell a lot more (lower priced models) cars than they do now, but not sure if they really want to here any more after taking away so many ranges of Falcon based cars.

Ford is out of the business of offering what you might consider cheap fleet or
de-contented cars, there is absolutely no sense in building cars with little or no profit.

^^^^^ This is a lesson well learned in North America, Ford shut down the
Atlanta Taurus plant in 2006 even though it was making over 200,000 cars
a year because all of them were going to daily rentals and taxi companies.

Ford would rather make less cars at a profit than build cars to keep their factories full,
that is the main ideological difference between them and GM, GM believes in empty sales.

A difficult concept to get your head around but rightsizing production for the true
market is the best way for production based businesses to return to profitability.

[Poetic Justice]

Having read that Ford HQ could consider developing Mustang and Falcon off the same base platform etc, I have to pose the question.

Would it be logical for Ford to approach their "global" model strategy by having Ford US and Ford AU (with input from anyone else in the Ford world who wants to) to have a global large sedan designed with Mustang in mind also?

Granted the Taurus is FWD currently, but if it still ticks the boxes and achieves all that needs to be achieved, is the market going to mind it going back to RWD? I hardly think so.

And if these vehicles are designed together with input based on market tastes and what not for their respective markets, what would it matter to have two vehicles that are mostly the same (save for potential front and rear fascia changes to suit market trend) yet one is called Falcon for Aus, and one is called Taurus for US?

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by SCUD

Having read that Ford HQ could consider developing Mustang and Falcon off the same base platform etc, I have to pose the question.

Would it be logical for Ford to approach their "global" model strategy by having Ford US and Ford AU (with input from anyone else in the Ford world who wants to) to have a global large sedan designed with Mustang in mind also?

Granted the Taurus is FWD currently, but if it still ticks the boxes and achieves all that needs to be achieved, is the market going to mind it going back to RWD? I hardly think so.

And if these vehicles are designed together with input based on market tastes and what not for their respective markets, what would it matter to have two vehicles that are mostly the same (save for potential front and rear fascia changes to suit market trend) yet one is called Falcon for Aus, and one is called Taurus for US?

I think Mustang needs Falcon to survive. Cars in the Ford empire have to be more global than ever. And as Ford have already confirmed they aren't opening Mustang to newer markets... then it's going to have to find a place in similarity under another vehicle.

As I see it. Falcon and Mustang need each other.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by SCUD

Having read that Ford HQ could consider developing Mustang and Falcon off the same base platform etc, I have to pose the question.

Would it be logical for Ford to approach their "global" model strategy by having Ford US and Ford AU (with input from anyone else in the Ford world who wants to) to have a global large sedan designed with Mustang in mind also?

Mustang wont be paired with anything beyond sharing technologies, not body structures. Its would be too compromised trying to build it off sedan underpinnings, and likewise a sedan would be compromised being built off the Mustang.

Granted the Taurus is FWD currently, but if it still ticks the boxes and achieves all that needs to be achieved, is the market going to mind it going back to RWD? I hardly think so.

Taurus has always been FWD, theres no going back to RWD there. If Ford US want a RWD sedan developed with Falcon, but dont want to call it Falcon, they'll likely keep Taurus the reliable family sedan its generally always been known for and call it something more appropriate to its likely sporty nature.

And if these vehicles are designed together with input based on market tastes and what not for their respective markets, what would it matter to have two vehicles that are mostly the same (save for potential front and rear fascia changes to suit market trend) yet one is called Falcon for Aus, and one is called Taurus for US?

Again Taurus and Falcon wont happen together on a RWD platform, however if Falcon goes FWD/AWD, what you've suggested for development is how it'll happen.

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

I think Mustang needs Falcon to survive. Cars in the Ford empire have to be more global than ever. And as Ford have already confirmed they aren't opening Mustang to newer markets... then it's going to have to find a place in similarity under another vehicle.

As I see it. Falcon and Mustang need each other.

Mustang is surviving using F150 engines and transmissions. In that respect, Falcon wont be taking Mustang tech but F150 tech. I'm not sure where Ford said Mustang wont be going to new markets however, i thought it was a given they'd be developing the new model for a global audience, as evidenced by the global styling direction.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Mustang wont be paired with anything beyond sharing technologies, not body structures. Its would be too compromised trying to build it off sedan underpinnings, and likewise a sedan would be compromised being built off the Mustang.

I can't really see the limitation here.

Platform cars can have wide variation.
Terry, Falcon, Falcon UTE, LWB and Wagon were all available off the BF platform.
Note the Ute in particular, floor pan shortened, and Half Chassis added.

VW are very good at driving a wide range of cars off a platform.
Having a rear that would suit the "Between the Wheels" driving position is no more radical a platform variation than the ute.
And remember that this can be a white paper design.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Taurus is too big for my tastes, but that same mechanical package in a Fusion/Mondeo would work a treat.

I guess since ive owned a car of decent build quality i wont own another falcon. Not saying the Taurus will be any better though.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Mustang is surviving using F150 engines and transmissions. In that respect, Falcon wont be taking Mustang tech but F150 tech. I'm not sure where Ford said Mustang wont be going to new markets however, i thought it was a given they'd be developing the new model for a global audience, as evidenced by the global styling direction.

F150 get's unique engines. They don't even get the 5.0L that both Falcon and Mustang use. And transmission...? Pffft, that's nothing Ford can't work around. Even if we have to go back to an American gear box instead of a better German one. Which by the way Territory is getting for the diesel.

I6 may have to be sacrificed... but I'd be willing to accept that loss. And when you look at the wheel base between Mustang and Falcon... they're only centimetres apart.

Originally Posted by EgoFG

I can't really see the limitation here.

Platform cars can have wide variation.
Terry, Falcon, Falcon UTE, LWB and Wagon were all available off the BF platform.
Note the Ute in particular, floor pan shortened, and Half Chassis added.

VW are very good at driving a wide range of cars off a platform.
Having a rear that would suit the "Between the Wheels" driving position is no more radical a platform variation than the ute.
And remember that this can be a white paper design.

^^

This. Although it wouldn't need to be white paper exactly. Just add up what each car brings to a consolidation and work it from there.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

F150 get's unique engines. They don't even get the 5.0L that both Falcon and Mustang use.

I call BS, Ford is currently gearing up to produce roughly 400,000 Coyotes a year,
the majority of F150s built will have a 5.0 Coyote engines, with V6, EBV6 and 6.2 in the minority


The engine comes with cast iron manifolds, slightly lower
compression and different engine calibration.

The 6R80 Transmission in the F150 goes in the Mustang
and the 6-speed manual transmission in Mustang comes
from Ford Transit and is made in China under license,

One Ford at work...

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I call BS, Ford is currently gearing up to produce roughly 400,000 Coyotes a year,
the majority of F150s built will have a 5.0 Coyote engines, with V6, EBV6 and 6.2 in the minority


The engine comes with cast iron manifolds, slightly lower
compression and different engine calibration.

The 6R80 Transmission in the F150 goes in the Mustang
and the 6-speed manual transmission in Mustang comes
from Ford Transit and is made in China under license,

One Ford at work...

After posting that. I realised I was wrong. It is in the F150.

But the Territory is getting the 6R80... so Australian products are already coming under One Ford. Falcon could get the 6R80... and more. Makes sense.

Why does the mustang use a transit manual... when Falcon uses the TR6060?

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

I can't really see the limitation here.

Platform cars can have wide variation.
Terry, Falcon, Falcon UTE, LWB and Wagon were all available off the BF platform.
Note the Ute in particular, floor pan shortened, and Half Chassis added.

Hmm, for my mind, only Falcon and LWB sedan were actually on the BA platform. Territory was parts bin special, not spun off Falcon. Wagon and ute were largely carryover from AU, wagon dating back further in other body structures.

Mustang uses a different manual transmission IIRC because the TR6060 isnt brilliant when revved to 7000rpm. For some reason the Getrag works in Mustang, despite also having a lower torque rating than what the 5L puts out.

Further to the 6R80, its a licensed ZF box, of which i doubt Ford have alot of development overheads.

[jixel 78]

Originally Posted by sly6pk

all im trying to do is get support before a final decision is made. you never know with enough people backing up the falcon it could sway them into keeping the falcon. its more a preventative opinion on a final decision that could be made.

Keep goin with the support.When it actually makes a difference and people actually buy a new Falcon, We`ll let Ford know and they can change what ever it is thats makin people buy Commodores, like smaller 6 cylinder base engines and V8`s that are cheap to make, modify and rebuild.Or maybe the ads on telly showin a nice SV6 sportwagon that looks bloody fantastic(lemme guess `not to everyone`?)cruisin through the countryside. Of course the ecoboost mite interest someone, like the Madagascan tree sloth or the deep sea ***** fish.........maybe you can get someone to buy a new coyote, if they dont have a Mustang already, or maybe the cant be f!@#ed so they bought an SS instead, coz it was delivered the same week, or even month.. BBBBBRRRRRTTTTT. Taurus might change this dead in the water thinking.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Mustang uses a different manual transmission IIRC because the TR6060 isnt brilliant when revved to 7000rpm. For some reason the Getrag works in Mustang, despite also having a lower torque rating than what the 5L puts out.

Think dynamic loading on the gearbox - less loading in a lighter Mustang
than a fully loaded Transit, kind of like normal rating versus severe duty.

Mustang owners would not expect their car to be capable of towing a 2.3 tonne trailer either...

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Think dynamic loading on the gearbox - less loading in a lighter Mustang
than a fully loaded Transit, kind of like normal rating versus severe duty.

Mustang owners would not expect their car to be capable of towing a 2.3 tonne trailer either...

You could see it making sense for Falcon.

[last fairlane]

Ford did make down market cars for years
they called them
TAXI PACKS

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by last fairlane

Ford did make down market cars for years
they called them
TAXI PACKS

Ford had the taxi fleet sales on a string, ask yourself why they it gave away..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

You could see it making sense for Falcon.

The cost of breaking an existing contract for the sake of around 80 to 90 gearboxes a month is not justified.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The cost of breaking an existing contract for the sake of around 80 to 90 gearboxes a month is not justified.

Not now.... later. When they start sharing more. (This is gonna make Barraxr8 rage like a mofo.)

[burnz]

Originally Posted by sly6pk

I was just wondering whether or not there is much support out there for the what could be the last of the Ford Falcons.

Ford plans to kill the falcon off and replace it with the taurus seem rather rushed and not a very well educated decision if thats the way it goes.
For instance the taurus is 5.3 meters long and 2.3 meters wide compared to the falcon at 4.9m long and 1.8m wide. Just curious, would there be very many car parks in aus that would fit a sedan that size. One thing that caught my eye though was the weight of the taurus, the base model with no extras weighs a hefty two tonnes campared to the falcon xt at 1700kg.

The only thing the tuarus has going for it in any sense is technology and the lame SHO performance model which is awd (which looses the awd drive advantage due to weight) has 272kw at 5500rpm and 475nm of torque from 1500-5000rpm coming out of a 3.5 twin turbo V6. But it still wouldnt out muscle our own performance falcon xr6 turbo weighing much less with 270kw at 5000rpm and 550nm of torque from 2000-4000rpm. The funny thing is it hasnt even been compared to our fpv range YET.

There has also just recently been a journalist from Australia test drive the SHO and compared it to our own breed and says besides the tech factor the xr6 turbo out muscles the SHO in every performance catagory. Now with ford aus releasing the new ecoboost 4 soon, people looking for economy wont be hard to come by. But for us enthusiasts who enjoy our rwd cars are going to loose out with an overweight oversized and underpowered sedan from the states.

My point in all this is we should build support for the dying breed and challange the yanks to drive our cars and NOT to like them. Lets challenge ford america to a duel or anything to prove that our car is far superior to theirs for once instead of lying down and letting them walk all over us. It would almost be guaranteed that if they did this the tuarus would be getting the chop and not our history rich beloved ford falcon. If they dont want to spend the cash them im sure there are more then enough falcon and even holden fans out there who would donate to get the ball rolling. Christ knows what will happen to the Ford VS Holden rivalry if the tuarus makes it to our shores.

i think the issue stems from ford taking photo's and not fixing problems..
talking to the hand for warranty doesn't instill buyer confidece.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Mustang owners would not expect their car to be capable of towing a 2.3 tonne trailer either...

They havent stuck a 5th wheel on the boot yet?

[jamesson1980]

FALCON


TAURUS


^^^Hypothetically, come 2015 if this shows up in dealerships sold as the FL Falcon, with RWD, 4, 6 and 8cyl, gas turbo options, with the full range from XT right up to a 300+KW V8 monster with all the luxury AND UTE models in between built on the same platform, would it really matter that it was a "Taurus"?? Personally with all this negative publicity, the lay person like myself is visualising a tacky 4cyl, FWD that stinks of America being thrown onto our shores as a so called substitute for the Falcon we've loved and developed for over 50 years.

America is obviously wearing the pants and is going to get it's way with the ONE FORD thingo even if FG sells 10 million units before 2015.

Surely Ford Aust can take advantage of this, use their Taurus or Mustang platform, even their motor designs, whatever is needed to satisfy the man in America.. but keep as much produtcion as possible here in Geebung and Broady, keeping our jobs and tailoring the new 'taurus' to Falcon buyers needs.. ie RWD, and not taking away any of the power, size and options we currently enjoy with the FG. Like 'sure we'll import your pastry crusts to satisfy your ONE-PIE plan, but we'll continue making the tasty filling we all love'.

If the style carries on from FG (as FG did from BF etc) to give a feeling of continuity of the Falcon tradition, we can still get our XT, G6, XR8 etc and we can tow the boat with a strong RWD then who cares where the body originated.

Perhaps I'm being too positive and hopeful, even naive with my visions above.. but I hope this change doesn't simply mean thousands of 4cyl FWD ready-made Taurus's arriving on ships with Falcon stickers on them like cheap happy meal toys.. I'd move to Holden.

[jpd80]

"If I don't get my RWD Falcon, I will go to Holden...."

This is what Ford is up against folks, plain and simple....but is it the voice of the new Falcon buyer or the fan who saves money buying second hand?


If it's the majority of new Falcon buyers, then why are we having 1500/month sales?

[jamesson1980]

Originally Posted by jpd80

"If I don't get my RWD Falcon, I will go to Holden...."

This is what Ford is up against folks, plain and simple....but is it the voice of the new Falcon buyer or the fan who saves money buying second hand?

It's the voice of a buyer who bought a brand new FG in 2009 just so we're on the same page here champ. And a buyer who is looking to upgrade to a brand new V8 model when it becomes available

If it were a FWD, low powered import, it would not have suited my needs nor been what I was looking for and yes, my $$$ would have gone to a Holden dealer who COULD sell me what I wanted.

[SteveJH]

A longditudinal RWD/AWD Aka. Audi & Nissan would be awesome, especially with Miami up the front.

A transverse FWD/AWD on the other hand would be boring and probably limited to I4 and v6. :(

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by jamesson1980

It's the voice of a buyer who bought a brand new FG in 2009 just so we're on the same page here champ. And a buyer who is looking to upgrade to a brand new V8 model when it becomes available

Back at you 2008 FG R6 owner.

There's a V8 available now....too much money I guess.

If it were a FWD, low powered import, it would not have suited my needs nor been what I was looking for and yes, my $$$ would have gone to a Holden dealer who COULD sell me what I wanted.

Ah, the perfect strawman argument:
Give an example of a car you hate to justify a move to Holden,
where has Ford said they are giving you a low power FWD?

So maybe your case is a $50,000 V8 RWD, if they can't do that off to Holden?

[jamesson1980]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Back at you 2008 FG R6 owner.

There's a V8 available now....too much money I guess.


Ah, the perfect strawman argument:
Give an example of a car you hate to justify a move to Holden,
where has Ford said they are giving you a low power FWD?

So maybe your case is a $50,000 V8 RWD, if they can't do that off to Holden?

Are you fair dinkum mate?? Look at the original post, it was a constructive thought on how the Taurus may be able to please fans of the traditional Falcon. And sure, I don't have the money for a brand new V8 Falcon right now but surely I can still join the discussion and have a say??

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by jamesson1980

Are you fair dinkum mate?? Look at the original post, it was a constructive thought on how the Taurus may be able to please fans of the traditional Falcon. And sure, I don't have the money for a brand new V8 Falcon right now but surely I can still join the discussion and have a say??

Firstly, sorry to bust your chops, didn't mean to offed you as much as I did and hey, that's fine to post mate but look at the last few lines and you really changed your tune from constructive to down right negative.

If it were a FWD, low powered import, it would not have suited my needs nor been what I was looking for and yes, my $$$ would have gone to a Holden dealer who COULD sell me what I wanted.

Nowhere has Ford said that they were considering a FWD anything, all that was mentioned was an AWD vehicle. After such a constructive post, this seems very out of context, would appreciate if you could clarify what you really meant by above.

Yes, there is a V8 Falcon/FPV available now but it is around $60,000 on the road so potential buyers tend to thin out due to the cost of admission, (and who can blame them, $60 K is a lot for most people to find)

FG II apparently has a different ECU that allows all four cam phasers to be used on V8 applications, it's possible that an XR8 will rejoin the fold as either a S/C V8 with grandfathering GS engine across or more likely Mustang NA 5.0. Either engine will do fine and I hope Ford gets on with it in respect to image. In any case a V8 Falcon just under $50K should entice a few lapsed buyers back to the fold.

Finally, if Ford is deciding to do something completely different with Falcon beyond 2015, that will have absolutely no affect on current product for at least three years or more. Who knows where we will all be by 2015/16 and what economic/fuel prices we will have by then, we may all be ready for a complete change by then...

[jamesson1980]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Firstly, sorry to bust your chops, didn't mean to offed you as much as I did and hey, that's fine to post mate but look at the last few lines and you really changed your tune from constructive to down right negative.

No worries man, I see where you're going there, I'm not sure exactly what I was saying now but it was negative, I'l pay that...

Ok, I haven't read every piece of info on the potential switch to Taurus but the parts I've read in these forums seem to point to FWD.

FWD's are fine, and probably the right direction for many new cars to head in future but may alienate a nation of Falcon fans. I just thought if we must embrace a global platform, lets take it but craft it to suit our own needs and what ford owners have come to love for half a century. The Taurus looks enough like a Falcon, but Ford Aust need to make it BE a Falcon, and I think RWD and 6cyl is a large part of that.

I'd hate to run over to Holden, I hope I never have to, but when it's time to upgrade and I want a strong Aussie RWD sedan for the family and towing etc, the Commo may present the only option in future, which would be one sad sad day