Engineers call for new Australian auto policy

[mik]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

Just seems like a case of grass is always greener on the other side; Australia isn't 'flooded' by different car makes anymore than any other country. Manufacturers/models that only build LHD are unavailable here outside of select importers and then they cost 2 or 3 times more than they're worth/would sell for her otherwise.

A basic Mercedes/BMW/Audi/etc. that sells for peanuts everywhere else is a $100k+ here which keeps it out of most peoples reach.

Overall the biggest sellers here are generally Ford/GM/Toyota/Nissan/Mazda with everyone else selling in small volume.

So local manufactures still have plenty of opportunity, you look at America where typically Pontiac/Chevy/Ford/Dodge/BMW/Mercedes/Jaguar and several others are all the big volume players.

America has a flooded market, every manufacturer in the world sells there yet its still the American brands that sell the biggest due to building the right cars/advertising/etc.

Australia really doesn't have it that bad, most of these cars supposedly 'flooding our markets' are priced for footballers, not the average buyer.

The way to save local manufacturing is not by making life harder for imports but by local manufacturers building cars that are relevant to the times. 400kw GTS's and blown GTs might appeal to performance enthusiasts by the average buyer either doesn't care or it just ins't practical enough for a modern day family. Rather than focusing on the near dead large car market focus on SUVs that out sell them hand over fist.

America has half the amount of imports australia does.

[mik]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

Don't we need a manufacturing industry for the sake of national security?

If there was ever a large scale world conflict how could we build / adapt vehicles for the war effort if all our current manufacturing plants are shopping malls and apartment blocks?

Absolutely agree, we should be striving to be more self sufficient rather than less, and regardless of how much of society moves into the high tech era, there will always be a need for hands on labor /manufacturing industry, not every one can be miners, bankers , brain surgeons, or scientists, unless the country wants to continue heading towards a social security disaster.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Ah yes, the golden days before the Button Plan...bring 'em back I say! Then we can go back to shoddily built lazily designed local cars because the makers know that they will always be protected by the government from the big bad world outside our borders...selling whatever dreck they dish out to a captive audience who doesn't know any better.

Except now the audience does know better...they know what they've been missing out on. I imagine some of you would be old enough to remember the seventies and the first time you either bought or went for a ride in a friends or family members "funny foreign car", and been amazed at the standard features...disc brakes, AM/FM stereo, rear window demister, air conditioning, cloth interiors...they seem simple things now, but back then they were options on Australian cars, and the cheap stuff that people bought just didn't have what foreign cars had as standard. The makers here didn't have to try harder, as they assumed they would always be protected by tariffs and taxes.
Sometimes...even today with the FG when compared to overseas cars...the foreign competition has features that simply don't exist in our home grown big sedans.

Strongly protecting our industry to force people to buy Australian cars like "the good old days"...?

Be careful what you wish for..

What was so bad about our locally built cars in the 60s and 70s? It seems to me that they were far superior than an equivalently priced import...

A Mazda 929 superior to a Holden V8 Vacationer? Just because the 929 had a higher level of factory fitted goodies does not make it a better car. In making that comparison, you left out ride quality and interior space and other important considerations that cannot be overshadowed by aircon and 4 speakers... also, a floor shifter would be a tad impractical in a 6 seater wagon...

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by superyob

What was so bad about our locally built cars in the 60s and 70s? It seems to me that they were far superior than an equivalently priced import...

A Mazda 929 superior to a Holden V8 Vacationer? Just because the 929 had a higher level of factory fitted goodies does not make it a better car. In making that comparison, you left out ride quality and interior space and other important considerations that cannot be overshadowed by aircon and 4 speakers... also, a floor shifter would be a tad impractical in a 6 seater wagon...

Exactly ..
How would the 626 go towing a caravan or horse float ??
Ahh yes it doesn't matter the 4 speaker system will make up for that !!!

[2011G6E]

Horse float or a big caravan?

People don't automatically go for a V8 Falcon or Holden to do that anymore...because of the wide range of vehicles available to us, people go for four wheel drives to do that. Virtually no one buys a Falcon with the express purpose of pulling a double horse float or a 25 foot caravan to go around Australia. We live right on the "migration route" of the grey nomads, as well as horse floats going back and forwards all the time from the coast inland for race meetings/rodeos and the other way as well. I could count on one hand the number of times I've seen a new Falcon towing a big van (or any sized) van or horse float.

The market years ago for towing vehicles was made up of clunky four wheel drives for enthusiasts or the man on the land, and "normal" sedans and wagons. If people in the towns and cities wanted to do a lot of things, they'd choose a Falcon or Holden wagon, and tow things and travel in it.
Now we have a huge choice of types of vehicles, and people no longer feel they "need" to buy a big Australian sedan to "do everything". They look for a specific vehicle to suit their needs...part of this is the rise of the mid sized SUV as an extremely popular family car.

If we threw up the protection barriers to foreign built cars, how do you change the public wanting a huge range of vehicles, when the majority of what "Australian car makers" sell isn't even built here? Try standing up before the world trade organisations and saying "We want protection from foreign built cars...erm...except for this one, and that one, and that one there...but keep all the others out!".

Won't happen. can't happen. If Australia tried to strongly protect itself, it would suddenly find retaliatory strikes against our exports with restrictions and taxation on the other end.

Anyone who thinks we are a big bad important country is sadly mistaken...we're tiny, we have less people than a lot of large cities overseas, and we don't really matter...the world can do without us. China and India love our coal for example, but they have plenty of their own...they just prefer to do business with a nice stable country like Australia. They could, with a little effort, just stop buying our stuff altogether and it wouldn't trouble them...but it would sure trouble us.

Wishing for a compliant public who won't look beyond a Falcon or Commodore is foolish...people now know better and have had decades of exposure to frankly better featured cars from overseas, and if you tried to cut that choice back, they'd bite back even harder against the local stuff in retaliation.

[ebxr8240]

626 is back in the 80"s not now..
What people want is an all round vehicle such as the newer SUV type these days..

[prydey]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Horse float or a big caravan?

People don't automatically go for a V8 Falcon or Holden to do that anymore...

geez, try to keep up. you keep banging on about the 70's. well the last 2 posts highlighted that the locals still had plenty of good points to keep the buyers coming.

now you jump back to the current era?? a bit of consistency please!

[prydey]

and once the locals are gone (which will happen if nothing changes) good luck trying to get a mazda3 for $20k!!

you talk about the imports keeping the locals honest. do you ever think about the reverse scenario??

[2011G6E]

Seeing as how we already pay more than buyers overseas pay for the same vehicle, they're not going to stop selling them at good prices and ruin market share.

Anyway, what does the Mazda 3 compare to with Ford or Holden? That's right...nothing locally built (apart possibly from the Cruze)...it competes with cars already built overseas by Fod and Holden. It doesn't compete with the Falcon or Commodore.
The only thing that "competes" with the Falcon and Commodore is maybe the 300C if you want to limit it to rear wheel drive large sedans, and that's only overpriced artificially so it's sold as a "prestige" car when in the USA it's just a "normal" family car.

SUV's? Nothing made here competes with them. Ford and Holden both have the extremely popular mid sized SUV's, but they're not "Australian cars".

I think the Commodore and the Falcon have been circling the drain for quite some time, not keeping up with what the buying public actually wants, trying to trade on tradition and an idea that every family simply must want a big rear drive sedan.


As for complaints about looking back over the years...if you forget what happened in the past you are bound to relive it. You can't ignore what happened years ago and pretend it has no link to what is happening today. The cars might be vastly different, but the concepts and problems and issues with the various parts of the industry have always been with us, and you can learn from them by looking at what was done years ago.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by prydey

and once the locals are gone (which will happen if nothing changes) good luck trying to get a mazda3 for $20k!!

you talk about the imports keeping the locals honest. do you ever think about the reverse scenario??

I doubt the 8 to 10% market share that the "locals" have, has any effect on the car pricing. In fact I think it would be safe to say that the "locals" themselves would want prices to increase (after all, selling a car for more than it costs to make, is one way to stay to in business).

The "locals" are not here to do anything for the country, they are here to make money.

Do you think the "locals" are being honest when they can sell Australian made camrys to the middle east and commodores to the US, cheaper then they can in Australia (at the expense of Australian taxpayers)?

[mik]

Originally Posted by superyob

What was so bad about our locally built cars in the 60s and 70s? It seems to me that they were far superior than an equivalently priced import...

A Mazda 929 superior to a Holden V8 Vacationer? Just because the 929 had a higher level of factory fitted goodies does not make it a better car. In making that comparison, you left out ride quality and interior space and other important considerations that cannot be overshadowed by aircon and 4 speakers... also, a floor shifter would be a tad impractical in a 6 seater wagon...

Exactlly, if my memory serves a lot of those early imports regardless of a few extra trinkets in many ways were not a patch on our local cars anyway, I would happily have a local car from the past as a daily today than one of those other shitboxes.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

I doubt the 8 to 10% market share that the "locals" have, has any effect on the car pricing. In fact I think it would be safe to say that the "locals" themselves would want prices to increase (after all, selling a car for more than it costs to make, is one way to stay to in business).

The "locals" are not here to do anything for the country, they are here to make money.

Do you think the "locals" are being honest when they can sell Australian made camrys to the middle east and commodores to the US, cheaper then they can in Australia (at the expense of Australian taxpayers)?

Precisely, if Toyota wasn't making profit on exports and local production, they would
be gone in a flash but here's the deal, Toyota is looking to add RAV4 production here in Australia.

Toyota's plans fly in the face of Ford's exit strategy and their cars could become more "Australian"
than FoA and its future 100% import strategy...

[mik]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Precisely, if Toyota wasn't making profit on exports and local production, they would
be gone in a flash but here's the deal, Toyota is looking to add RAV4 production here in Australia.

Toyota's plans fly in the face of Ford's exit strategy and their cars could become more "Australian"
than FoA and its future 100% import strategy...

not meaning to be argumentative old mate and maybe i misunderstood the article, but what of reports of oz toyota running at a loss of x million recently??

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by mik

not meaning to be argumentative old mate and maybe i misunderstood the article, but what of reports of oz toyota running at a loss of x million recently??

you mean this here article, coupled with the fact their talking about Holden style bailouts?
I'm skeptical that they're making profits too....

[mik]

Originally Posted by lotski

you mean this here article, coupled with the fact their talking about Holden style bailouts?
I'm skeptical that they're making profits too....

no there is a later one than that, if i find it i`ll post it up.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by mik

no there is a later one than that, if i find it i`ll post it up.

I just did a quick google, and grabbed the first one

[2011G6E]

It's always been a hard market to make profits in for any car maker. That's what comes from having such a tiny population and being so far from anywhere.

Not to mention we stupidly increase cost of production and development here by feeling we must meet stringent Euro and USA emissions regimes, when really, if a vehicle isn't for export (like the Falcon), who cares what emissions laws we are following, if any?

In fact, you could almost say a lot of our unique-to-Australia ADR's are a form of "protectionism" from foreign cars, as vehicles that have already passed rigorous safety testing overseas often have to be re-engineered to suit our requirements once they get here. That's part of why we pay so much for even basic stuff.

[Maka]

[quote 2011g6e]

"As for complaints about looking back over the years...if you forget what happened in the past you are bound to relive it. You can't ignore what happened years ago and pretend it has no link to what is happening today. The cars might be vastly different, but the concepts and problems and issues with the various parts of the industry have always been with us, and you can learn from them by looking at what was done years ago."

Well said mate, this i agree with!

cheers, Maka

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by mik

America has half the amount of imports australia does.

Doubtful, every manufacturer in the world, outside of those select few that only sell in their country of origin sell cars in America, there are alot of models and brands that dont sell in Australia.

And alot of the 'evil' imports sold here are sold for an astronomical amount that put them out of range of the average commuter.

[cliford302]

I live in Queensland where you have to look for a Falcon or Terry police car or any Government car wearing a Blue Oval.If the Government can't set an example buy using Falcon and Territory its no wonder Ford Oz is closing the door on local manufacturing.All the while we allow bankrupt Opel to sell cars in Oz.

[mik]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

Doubtful, every manufacturer in the world, outside of those select few that only sell in their country of origin sell cars in America, there are alot of models and brands that dont sell in Australia.

And alot of the 'evil' imports sold here are sold for an astronomical amount that put them out of range of the average commuter.

i can only tell you what i have read , doubtful or not it was printed in an article not long ago.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

Doubtful, every manufacturer in the world, outside of those select few that only sell in their country of origin sell cars in America, there are alot of models and brands that dont sell in Australia.

And alot of the 'evil' imports sold here are sold for an astronomical amount that put them out of range of the average commuter.

there are more brands and models sold in australia than any other country in the world. there are more brands in australia than america. they may have some that we dont, we may have some that they dont, but the number in australia is higher.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by lotski

you mean this here article, coupled with the fact their talking about Holden style bailouts?
I'm skeptical that they're making profits too....

Just on that, I saw an article in the last week that showed that the base model ( I think it was anyhow) cruze wagon was $29,990 driveaway (Holden website doesnt advertise the price). These are imported and I guess as they currently dont command a high percentage of the market, then Holden would be trying to make money on these. Compare the wagon price to the sedan / hatch pricing (Australian made) and the wagon is selling for approx $10,000 more (once again not sure if they are comparable models). Compare the same wagon to sedan in the commodore section, and the wagon normally only sells for approx $4000 to $5000 more.

Question - Would it be a fair assumption to say that Holden are selling the cruze sedan / hatch for $4000 to $5000 less than they should be (thus obviously making a loss on them).

[stevz]

Originally Posted by rdmr

We have a FTA with Thailand that is CLEARLY, PLANLY and OBVIOUSLY destroying an Australian industry and costing thousands of jobs and with it throwing many lives into turmoil.
And what is the Australian government doing?
F#+@*&g nothing!
Sickens me beyond words.

I absolutely despise the government and believe they have a lot to answer for, but we cannot just sit back and blame the government and wait for them to do something about it.
IT IS UP TO THE AUSTRALIAN CONSUMER TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT BY REFUSING TO BUY IMPORTED VEHICLES, SPECIFICALLY THOSE FROM THAILAND.
THERE IS NO POINT WHINGING ABOUT THE SITUATION THEN GOING OUT AND BUYING A THAI BUILT VEHICLE AND SUPPORTING THE VERY FTA YOU ARE WHINGING ABOUT.

WHEN ARE AUSTRALIANS GOING TO WAKE UP????

[westy73]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

But people are calling for/wishing that the government had built a figurative wall around Australia and not allowed any imports in, in the first place. A captive market is easy to please...

Actually that's not what we are calling for at all.
People want to make sure there is a viable alternative other than being force fed imports.

Australian new vehicles sales (local + imported) is running at around or just over 1 million per year.

As of 2011 (couldn't get my hands on more recent data/stats for this) the ratio of local to imported was 15 % local, 85 % imported.

In the USA for the same time was 77% local and 23 % imported. Now I am not sure what the reason for this is other than Americans are more patriotic than we are and will support their local manufacturers.

Some other interesting data pulled from VFACTS shows there has been a steady decline in percent of market share for local manufacturers but not a total wipeout.

For example as of 1997 Ford had 18% market share at a time when imports had a total share of 48%.

Then in 2011 Ford had a 9% market share and imports had 60%.

Now the interesting thing here that I expected to see was that Toyota would take up much of the slack but that's not the case. In 1997 Toyota had a 17% share of the market and in 2011 they had just 18% so pretty much status quo for them. The biggest mover and shaker was 'Other' imports so this would be the 'cheap' Chinese, Korean and Indian imports. This is significant as it shows how developing economies have been able to tap into a significant car sales market that is available in Australia. This equates to around 600,000 new car sales being imports. If this were 600,000 new car sales for Australian manufactures there would be no conversations being had about trying to save our auto industry.

Reading the letter in this post about getting smarted and developing with technology makes sense if a business case can be made. Why shouldn't we compete with other countries and use our abundant resources and skills and jump ahead of the game. There would be an initial cost outlay no question however the rewards could mean a bright future for Ford, Holden and Toyota and in the end create a much leaner and meaner car industry that could easily compete in the domestic and export markets.

Or should we just let the naysayers control our future manufacturing destiny. There is a balance that should/must be struck between import restriction and free trade and it must be on a level playing field. This letter highlights a need for technological improvement in the Aussie auto industry. Money that has been set aside to keep these companies afloat or for so called 'green' innovation should be pushed into these areas as technological advancement in these areas will filter into others across the manufacturing spectrum. Money worth investing I say unless we want to resign ourselves to being a future third world economy.

Come on Aussie !!

[mickcoz]

Quite a few comments here have been made about Australian manufacturers needing to build what people want.

I think Australian manufacturer's like Ford need to be looking at what features are being included in cars from overseas to make people want to buy their cars. You've only got to look at features included in imported cars with lower price tags and not even the top of the range in those cars.

I've got a 2012 G6E MKII with sat nav, this is supposedly the top of the line in the Falcon range so it's go it all:

1. Leather seats with electric 8 way adjustable drivers seat (not heated or cooled like Hyundai or Kia or the current Captiva) but then better than the 6 way seats in the Territory Titanium (oh yeah that's the top of the line in that range too, again from Ford)

2. Led Parker's on then front which don't function as daylight running lights, the only way to have them on in daylight is to select Parker's but then it beeps at me to turn my lights off when I turn off the ignition.

3. Automatic headlights that really only come on when its almost dark, so you have to switch to normal headlights on overcast days or out on the highway; and again if I select normal lights instead of automatic it beeps as me to turn them off when I turn off the ignition.

4. Standard light globes everywhere (no LEDs).

5. Standard wipers like in the XT Falcon (no automatic setting).

6. Reversing camera that only shows the direct feed from the camera no parking assist guide lines.

7. Sat nav that was nearly a year old when the car came off the showroom floor; and still no definitive date for an update, but whereis have had two updates in the same period if I wanted to buy updates from them.

8. Drivers window with auto down but not auto up.

And this list could easily be longer, but there the ones that readily come to mind

Don't get me wrong, this is the best Ford I've owned but its still disappointing to find Ford being so far from competitive in features than even Holden commodore in the same price range, let alone imports that are significantly cheaper.


Sent from my MZ604 using Tapatalk 2

[SB076]

Originally Posted by mik

Absolutely agree, we should be striving to be more self sufficient rather than less, and regardless of how much of society moves into the high tech era, there will always be a need for hands on labor /manufacturing industry, not every one can be miners, bankers , brain surgeons, or scientists, unless the country wants to continue heading towards a social security disaster.

Not just that, was talking to a person in the defence industry - he was telling me defence uniforms are manufactured overseas, munitions and ammunition the same - I was interested to hear more but he was pushed for time. I sincerely hope he was wrong.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by stevz

I absolutely despise the government and believe they have a lot to answer for, but we cannot just sit back and blame the government and wait for them to do something about it.
IT IS UP TO THE AUSTRALIAN CONSUMER TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT BY REFUSING TO BUY IMPORTED VEHICLES, SPECIFICALLY THOSE FROM THAILAND.
THERE IS NO POINT WHINGING ABOUT THE SITUATION THEN GOING OUT AND BUYING A THAI BUILT VEHICLE AND SUPPORTING THE VERY FTA YOU ARE WHINGING ABOUT.

WHEN ARE AUSTRALIANS GOING TO WAKE UP????

When will you wake up is the big question. Again you have a go at ppl buying imports but you don't buy new Aussie cars, or a new car at all. Double standards much?

If oz had something that suited me I'd buy it no doubt.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by DJM83

When will you wake up is the big question. Again you have a go at ppl buying imports but you don't buy new Aussie cars, or a new car at all. Double standards much?

If oz had something that suited me I'd buy it no doubt.

I think instead of also ramming it down people's throats, why not identify WHY people are buying these imports? What is it that they have over the Falcon's and Commodores that people want?

If it is that many people changing over then there has to be a reason behind it.
If the locals were that good they would sell on their own.

Oh and didn't Ford at one stage build a small car here? Soooo is it really the public's fault that Ford closed it's doors or just poor market insight by a 110 yr old car maker?

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by Wretched

I think instead of also ramming it down people's throats, why not identify WHY people are buying these imports? What is it that they have over the Falcon's and Commodores that people want?

If it is that many people changing over then there has to be a reason behind it.
If the locals were that good they would sell on their own.

Oh and didn't Ford at one stage build a small car here? Soooo is it really the public's fault that Ford closed it's doors or just poor market insight by a 110 yr old car maker?

took the words right out of my mouth mate.
This whole "you should buy a vehicle that doesn't suit your needs to suit australian manufacturing" attitude is rubbish. It should be "Australian manufacturing needs to identify why people are moving from our home grown cars", and start questioning their methods.