Should the Australian Government support local car manufacturers?

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Actually my family has a lot of farms over NSW with the difference being that the land is owned by the farmer and does not receive handouts.

I am simply against the free ride SOME farmers get out west being heavily subsidised using Government land and subsequently degradading it.

You mean the dirt farmers west of the Newell? ;)

[xbgs351]

When the Button plan was first introduced Australia manufactured more cars than than South Korea. The world has sure changed since then.

[PHATXR8]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Actually my family has a lot of farms over NSW with the difference being that the land is owned by the farmer and does not receive handouts.

Judging by your comments above, can we safely assume that you think that no one should receive any Government handouts? If so, then we should leave the disabled to die on the street, unemployed people to steal for survival, old people to rot in their own faeces while they stave in a cold gutter, kids should only be educated if their parents can afford to pay full fees for their education (or perhaps public education should be disbanded), sick people can only go to hospital and receive medical treatment if they are rich, people in the manufacturing industries in Australia should create their own jobs, towns and cities should pay for their own police forces to enforce law and order, etc, etc!!

I don't know what sort of upbringing you have had, or what your backgroung is, but you certainly aren't living in the real world! Or are you a Simpleton?

Australia has the most efficient farming practices in the world, with the lowest levels of government assistance or subsidies in the developoed world. Perhaps you should get your facts straight before you go mouthing-off in future!

[uranium_death]

It is delicate.

A good point made was that the government should not totally protect it otherwise local industries will churn out garbage and get away with it. In some respects, competition is important so the industry remains fresh and they will endeavour to improve the quality of build.

HOWEVER, the government needs to protect the jobs of people. That is where i believe the saddest story remains.

Although I think there needs to be SOME protection, they still need to be held accountable and I think SOME competition is important.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by PHATXR8

Judging by your comments above, can we safely assume that you think that no one should receive any Government handouts? If so, then we should leave the disabled to die on the street, unemployed people to steal for survival, old people to rot in their own faeces while they stave in a cold gutter, kids should only be educated if their parents can afford to pay full fees for their education (or perhaps public education should be disbanded), sick people can only go to hospital and receive medical treatment if they are rich, people in the manufacturing industries in Australia should create their own jobs, towns and cities should pay for their own police forces to enforce law and order, etc, etc!!

I don't know what sort of upbringing you have had, or what your backgroung is, but you certainly aren't living in the real world! Or are you a Simpleton?

Australia has the most efficient farming practices in the world, with the lowest levels of government assistance or subsidies in the developoed world. Perhaps you should get your facts straight before you go mouthing-off in future!

I dont know how my comments are against the Government helping out the little guy??

I was simply saying hat there is no difference between the Government helping farmers and the Government helping manufacturing.

While in some aspects our farming is efficient in others it is extremely wasteful as anybody who has seen the soil degradation out west can testify.

I can also remember not long ago where all you had to do was dig a hole a few feet down and water would come pouring out of aquaifers now they have to bring in heavy machinery to get a trickle.

Let me put the question in a different light: say the Government subsidises around 500 million dollars a year divide that by 10 million working Australians equates to about 1 dollar a week.

Are you willing to give up one dollar a week to have the choice of being able to buy a made for australia car thats roomy powerful RWD and keeps Australians in work?

[PHATXR8]

[
Are you willing to give up one dollar a week to have the choice of being able to buy a made for australia car thats roomy powerful RWD and keeps Australians in work?[/QUOTE]

Yes, most definately. I think Australians, via their Governments, should be prepared to support all industries in Australia provided that it is economically responsible to do provide such support.

[mik]

in this economic climate imo they should help out the car industry , it hugely labour intensive for a start, it very hard to compete against over seas car makers that pay their workers peanuts for wages, perhaps if tax burden was`nt so great in australia they could actually,
A. afford to make us better cars
B.compete with over seas car makers
lets face it car makers are in it to make a buk, every year there are more demands for safety improvements, tuffer emmissions, labor costs are more ,etc,

[new2ford]

In the end the local car manufacturers are subsidiaries of overseas companies and the future of local manufacture will be decided overseas. Meanwhile governments will always support an industry as long as it supports national goals.

As a good parallel, Australia used to have a major railway and tramway rolling stock industry that was a world leader in some areas. Then everything when bottom up with economic "rationalisation" and now overseas suppliers dominate including Canadian Bombardier which is well supported by its own government:

"Bombardier has been criticized in Canada and abroad over the subsidies it receives from various levels of government. They have been described as beneficiaries of corporate welfare and accused of violating free trade agreements, especially by Brazil. Canada and Bombardier have countered by citing Brazil's direct and indirect subsidies to Embraer, its own major aircraft manufacturer and one of Bombardier's principal competitors in the regional jet market.

The government of Canada provided a large interest rate subsidy for the financing that made possible Bombardier's sale of subway trains to the New York City Subway. Some Canadians objected to such large sums of money being given to a private for-profit company, but the government had argued that the subsidies create many jobs. Recently, Bombardier initiated an engineering design agreement with an Indian company which subsidy critics argue may result in a loss of jobs in Canada"

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier)

Similarly the Czech government made conditions on the sale of the controlling interest in Skoda Auto to VAG including ensuring it remained a Czech company; as a result the company is contributing to a huge export boom for the Czech economy.

By contrast, the only guiding policy in Australia seems to be that we become the doormat of Asia. I'm sure it won't be long before the govt eases itself of the burden of the local car industry because they don't have the vision or backbone to do something more assertive in the national interest.

[RIPGMH]

Originally Posted by sleekism

It's not just agriculture either the Government goes to a lot of trouble looking after the mining industry

I agree with the majority of your post, but this part is BS. They "look" after the mining industry with tax breaks etc, because the mining industry looks after them. The royalties they receive from mining is ridiculous, if there is an industry that doesn't need the government its mining.

[ltd]

Of course the government should look at helping out the local car industry. To neglect to offer them incentives to stay in Oz would be spell the end for countless jobs, countless investment and would send a lot of smaller companies such as component suppliers broke. Should we be so stupid as to tell the locals to bugger off, we will be subject to importing cars only; and they'd never change the price would they?

Everyone in the country needs the car industry as prices of imports are adjusted to ensure they compete in the market segment they are in. Look in the UK for example, they have that Kia Cerato diesel they towed a caravan with which was 16,000 pounds; we have Kia Cerato's here for $12990. Do the conversion, the UK are spending approx. $40,000 on the same car (albeit with a diesel engine), and this is a country with no local auto industry.

As said earlier in the post by some astute contributor, where else can you buy a car for 50-60 grand that offers a large car, power, performance, a V8, leather, safety features equivalent to the worlds best and style? Not japan that's for sure, not Europe and sure as hell not Asia.
All the federal government needs to do now to show their commitment is to change imports duty on 4WD vehicles; put it up to the benchmark and drive alot more people to reconsider the locals. BTW, tell me any 4WD for the same price that offers as much value as the territory, or better?

[Miyagi]

I say yes support our local manufacturers but in the same breathe they need to spend our tax $$$ wisely first and foremost... they should make support Ford & GM in developing further LPG technology and incent them to have them available across a wider range.

[fou_bleu]

Bloody oath they should! LPG Falc's and dunnydores instead of Camry's! :@

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by fordman6

Bloody oath they should! LPG Falc's and dunnydores instead of Camry's! :@

Camry's are made in Altona Victoria, the Toyota plant there employs 1000's of Australians, and supports many local suppliers too.

[perrys]

Originally Posted by fordman6

Bloody oath they should! LPG Falc's and dunnydores instead of Camry's! :@

Too many narrow minded people in Australia, just like how this poll is constructed.

[Tles]

The local industry supports racing, engineering, design and so on. Richard Parry Jones, Mark Weber, Geoff Polites, Scott Strong all big influence from Oz car industry - list could've been huge.

The Victorian Government has amazingly taken a sensible approach in reducing the tax burden on New buyers to improve the safety spec levels of the average new vehicle sold.
The Feds should encourage ESC and side airbags, lap sash centre rear belts and ABS by removing the GST on an agreed percentage of a vehicles price when say 4 star crash rating and certain safety enhancements are included as standard. Punish the weak and reward those who care about the safety of their customers.
This may counter the Qld reapers new punish the non Hybrids and call it an EVIRgONeMENTAL INITaxIAveTgIVE

Manufacturing a vehicle is no less of an art form than Architecture or Theatre and if you don't get it right (AU) you lose big time. Do we complain about the subsidies to all the Arts and Opera companies or do we call it CULTURE.
I enjoy the Australian culture everytime I floor the Fords loud pedal upto 100km anyway.

[BAFalconXT]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
The fazing out of tariffs and other government handouts has made local manifacturers more competitive. Americas industries are heavily subsidised and have become extremely uncompetitive because of it. This has recently lead to massive job losses. The only way to maintain a local car industry to make it internationally competitive. Afew job losses now is nothing compared to tens of thousands in the future.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

I agree with the majority of your post, but this part is BS. They "look" after the mining industry with tax breaks etc, because the mining industry looks after them. The royalties they receive from mining is ridiculous, if there is an industry that doesn't need the government its mining.

Soz I meant only some aspects of the mining industry such as uranium where the cost of cleaning up the mine far outweighs economic gains.

Australia is very dependent on the mining industry.

[Bossxr8]

I don't see a problem with the government giving financial support to auto manufacturers. I mean, the manufacturers give a lot of money back to the government in forms of sales taxes, stampduty etc. I think its only fair they should give it back to them in the form of research incentives etc. to support local industries and jobs. Just think how many skilled tradesman have started in the auto industry, then gone on to do other things.

It has to be done. If Ford shut down Geelong would be screwed. Its the 2nd biggest employer and supports other local manufacturers. It would be an absolute disaster for the town.

[PHATXR8]

I have a friend who does some consulting work with Treasury Department. Apparently they are currently looking at removing the Fringe Benefits Tax concessions on motor vehicles (ie, salary packaging cars, novated leases, etc) because it is costing the ATO a couple of hundred million dollars a year in lost revenue.

Treasury's line of thinking is that the Federal Government would be better off using this money to provide financial support to the Australian Car Industry, particulary in assisting export programs.

Treasury is also looking at the costings for continuing with the current FBT concession arrangements for Australian Made cars only. I reckon this is a great idea.

[sleekism]

It's not like the Government is propping up the industry to a large degree the industry is strong and self-sufficient the Government should simply have the protection in line with world standards.

Japan's industry has a good relationship with the Government and in fact the progress of Japans auto industry in the 60's and 70's was largely Government directed with financial incentives to pursue certain things such as building cars for export to America and Europe.

Germany takes it a step further by the German states actually having shares in the big German car companies.

I think by John Buttons own admission the Button Plan failed as there should have been more financial incentives to pursue different markets such as SUV's where I think there was actually tax breaks for the import of foreign SUV's or low tarrifs or something and it led to the domination of the SUV market by imports with the Territory only recently being released into the market.

Also the Jury is still out on the benefits of hybrids as the specialist manufacturing techniques involved actually creates more pollution than the petrol rival and then there is the problem of disposal of batteries. Also IMO the whole save the environmaent by a hybrid thing is quite stupid considering that the people who buy these cars likely contribute more to the environment through their consumer lifestyle with plasma TV's, mobile phones and large well equipped homes than the average bogan who has a six I think if you calculated the REAL impact it would yield interesting results.

Also there are still the adverse health effects from Diesel with some studies showing that the old diesel engines which blasted soot everywhere are much cleaner than the new "clean" Diesel engines which craete finite particles.
Also studies also show that in Europe as the demands on emissions laws increase it will become so expensive to process Diesel that Petrol will be a lot cheaper and the pendulum will swing back the other way in Europe with Petrol becoming popular again.

I haven't been around long enough to have a credible opinion on whether the old days were better but the XE and the XT we owned never really had any problems.

I think the Government hasn't been offering enough incentive for the industry to chase market niches and go beyond the regular formula.
Imagine if the Territory had come out in the early 90's with a off road version and Diesel engine just in time for the HUGE SUV and Diesel boom in the 90's and imagine if the Government had offered more incentive to pursue LPG just in time for the petrol crisis.

My fear is that Australia is too dependent on the mining boom and consumer debt spending and if the *** falls out of the market we are in big trouble.
Imagine if the Australian dollar drops to 1 Aus buys 0.5US and we have no more local manufacturing base have fun buying your 40,000 dollar Corolla

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by sleekism

My fear is that Australia is too dependent on the mining boom and consumer debt spending and if the *** falls out of the market we are in big trouble.
Imagine if the Australian dollar drops to 1 Aus buys 0.5US and we have no more local manufacturing base have fun buying your 40,000 dollar Corolla

Actually the car stays the same price but the profit made by Toyota would be different. Like Australian exporters that were loving when the Aussie dollar was 50c US as their profits were very good, but as soon as the Aussie dollar got back to 80c US the price of the exported product didn't change just the profit margin.

[4Vman]

R+D.. Governments should be encouraging and supporting Research and Development in areas that have a flow on effect to increase exports and make local manufacturing more competitive against imports.
I strongly oppose out right subsidy of local manufacturing as it creates complacency, lazy work practices and ultimately inferior products.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by BAFalconXT

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
The fazing out of tariffs and other government handouts has made local manifacturers more competitive. Americas industries are heavily subsidised and have become extremely uncompetitive because of it. This has recently lead to massive job losses. The only way to maintain a local car industry to make it internationally competitive. Afew job losses now is nothing compared to tens of thousands in the future.

Sorry, but that is a very limited view of the problems you have cited.
There is a balance to be achieved and frankly, any more pressure on the locals WILL send them off shore. Holden has already started the exodus with most parts for the VE coming from Korea; do you want them all to do that?
I agree that in the days of the 25% tarriffs the cars weren't all that special, but these days they are amongst the best. If we were to get rid of the tarrifs (5-10%) then the net effect would be akin to bending over and dropping your pants in Surrey Hills.

Every nation offers some kind of protection on their industries, it would be suicidal not to, and free trade; that is real free trade, only works when every other nation drops their protection on their industries as well.
As for the Americans and their auto industry; they are just selling smaller cars and the big 4 car makers are only catching up to the trend. As for their costs, America has the toughest auto union in the world where an employee can get a pension for life after working 5 years. That's what's sending them broke.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by bArNsY

Purchasing Power Parity, other countries make cars cheaper, Japan imports rice for Australia, why? cos its cheaper!

I’ll put that down as a typo as Australia exports rice to Japan.

As far as I’m concerned, the growing of rice and cotton in Australia should be banned. How many people here know how much water it takes to grow a kilogram of rice?

As for the local car industry… perhaps they should be doing more for the local suppliers of components before they source parts from overseas. The button plan certainly helped improve the quality of the locally built cars in Australia. How many here can remember, or are prepared to admit the atrocious build quality of the XD, XE, XF Falcon or the VB, VC, VH Commodore? Even worse, remember the old 12/20 warranty? Thank God those days are gone.

Originally Posted by sleekism

Actually my family has a lot of farms over NSW with the difference being that the land is owned by the farmer and does not receive handouts.

What the hell are you smoking? Farmers would be the most mollycoddled, over subsidised whingers in the entire community. Get off the drugs and get into the real world.

[SB076]

The government should protect the Automotive industry - once its gone you will never get it back and tens of thousands of jobs will be lost (meaning not only the four car manufacturing companies but also all the companies that manufacture components etc) This will then also have a flow on effect to other industries too.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by SB076

The government should protect the Automotive industry - once its gone you will never get it back and tens of thousands of jobs will be lost (meaning not only the four car manufacturing companies but also all the companies that manufacture components etc) This will then also have a flow on effect to other industries too.

It’s capitalism we are talking about here. It’s a system based on speculation and profit making, driven by the almighty dollar. They expect us to help them make the profit, but how much does the community receive in return? It ain’t the government that’s supporting them, it’s you and me as taxpayers. If you feel so strongly about this, why don’t you post a cheque for $100 to Ford or Holden every week?

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

It’s capitalism we are talking about here. It’s a system based on speculation and profit making, driven by the almighty dollar. They expect us to help them make the profit, but how much does the community receive in return? It ain’t the government that’s supporting them, it’s you and me as taxpayers. If you feel so strongly about this, why don’t you post a cheque for $100 to Ford or Holden every week?

I stated that the governemnt should protect the automotive industry, whether that is by subsidising or tariff's is entirely up to the government.

If you say for arguements sake that the automotive industry contributes 50,000 jobs provided by 200 companies - once its gone, there are 50,000 people who are no longer paying tax (based on wages) and 200 companies that are no longer contributing tax in any form. Not to mention so many accoutants, IT, and other professions that served those 200 companies. You also have 50,000 families that are not longer looking at buying a new car or building a house. Which puts pressure on other industries.

I do support the local industry as I drive a Ford : and in doing so I support Australian jobs. Not everything comes down to $$$$ (for example what tv/fridge/washing machine, do you own?) A lot of people still buy on perceived quality and brand recognition, not just price.

[BFXR8Silhouette]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I mean Farmers get lots of tax breaks, special government grants and the use of Government land for little or no charge as well as a million other subsidies that the taxpayer funds.

:

Where can I get some of this free use of Govt Land??? You seem to be in the know. Put me on the list.

[sleekism]

Grazing land out West is crown land as well as TSR's.

The rent on this land has been increased since the early 1900's so has not kept up with inflation.

There is now a push by cattle farmers to open up national parks to grazing due to the drought.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

It’s capitalism we are talking about here. It’s a system based on speculation and profit making, driven by the almighty dollar. They expect us to help them make the profit, but how much does the community receive in return? It ain’t the government that’s supporting them, it’s you and me as taxpayers. If you feel so strongly about this, why don’t you post a cheque for $100 to Ford or Holden every week?

If the auto manufacturers shut down then the government will then be spending millions paying all the workers dole cheques. Which would you rather. :