Elderly couple caught up in a drag race.

[gz1]

While not by any means defending those that were allegedly racing, If the camry turned in front of them there is very little they could have done. Sure you will say if they were going slower they may still have hit but not killed anyone, well how do you know? people have died in car accidents as low as 40km/hr, hardly a racing speed. and by the same logic, if they were going even faster they still may not have hit as they would have passed the intersection before the camry turned into it.
While it is tragic that two people lost their lives let's not forget that by all the evidence we have to date, the one driving the camry is the major cause of the accident. When turning across traffic it is the onus of the driver turning to ensure that there is no oncoming traffic.
Just for the record I have been is a situation where a car has turned right in front of me (I was the passenger), and there was no chance at all that accident could have been avoided. and had the other car been a camry instead of a large 4wd, I'm sure there could have been fatalities there as well. both cars ended up totaled and we were going under the speed limit (going about 65 in a 70 zone).

So yes, racing is not the thing to do on a public road, but let's not put all the blame on those racing.

[fordOwner]

This makes me SO FRIGGIN ANGRY.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by gz1

While not by any means defending those that were allegedly racing, If the camry turned in front of them there is very little they could have done. Sure you will say if they were going slower they may still have hit but not killed anyone, well how do you know? people have died in car accidents as low as 40km/hr, hardly a racing speed. and by the same logic, if they were going even faster they still may not have hit as they would have passed the intersection before the camry turned into it.
While it is tragic that two people lost their lives let's not forget that by all the evidence we have to date, the one driving the camry is the major cause of the accident. When turning across traffic it is the onus of the driver turning to ensure that there is no oncoming traffic.

So yes, racing is not the thing to do on a public road, but let's not put all the blame on those racing.

Let's not put all the blame on those racing? Are you joking?

It was 7pm, a difficult time for the best of drivers to judge the speed of an oncoming vehicle. Unsure what part of Great Western it was (all I heard was St Marys) but I believe around that area there's a mix of 60/70/80, there are bends and hills also. Now, there's an expectation that a vehicle a couple of hundred meters away doing the speed limit is safe to pull out of a street infront of.

The clowns racing were the major cause of the accident. I agree that the onus is on the driver entering the road to insure there's no oncoming traffic, but do you ever expect the oncoming traffic to be doing double the posted speed limit? Do you think you'd be able to glance up the road, consider the distance the oncoming traffic is from you and take into consideration that they're doing well over the speed limit at 7pm at night?

[Hunter]

Well it looks like they were very much doing well over the speed limit if this eye witness account is accurate:

One witness, Wade Watson, said the two Holdens braked so hard their tyres exploded.

"I heard a loud bang and looked over and I saw lots of smoke coming from the red Commodore," Mr Watson, 20, said.

"I saw the silver Commodore braking really hard and then its tyres blew.

"The red Commodore had no front end left - nobody got out of the cars. I have never seen a crash like this before.

Firemen in a fire engine, which happened to be at the intersection when the crash occurred, went to the couple's aid, but were unable to save them.

He said the police investigation into the crash restricted what he could say about it, but he indicated high speed was a factor.

"It certainly appeared to be a high-speed impact from the damage that was sustained,'' he said.

Looks like they're fairly well boned - plenty of witnesses and plenty of evidence. Now, hopefully the coward in the Mazda will turn his gutless a*se into the cops.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/general/n...647774961.html

[carnutt]

Been a lot of years since I've been in St Mary's , but is the police station still on the hill just before Queen st ?

Also speeding down that hill , those cars would have heaps of "momentum" , the old couple wouldn't have had a chance . : I remember a cement truck coming off there once & took out a couple of shops on the corner .

[HLC]

Originally Posted by carnutt

Been a lot of years since I've been in St Mary's , but is the police station still on the hill just before Queen st ?

Also speeding down that hill , those cars would have heaps of "momentum" , the old couple wouldn't have had a chance . : I remember a cement truck coming off there once & took out a couple of shops on the corner .

nope it isnt. its on queen street now.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Bluepower

This makes us very sad - something than can and should have been avoided.

We spend approx 1-3K per years on tyres that are lent at no cost to our clients who wish to engage in official off-road sanctioned motorsport.

I would like to acknowledge all the people and staff on this forum who organise such events - im proud to be a part of something that is more of a "cure" rather than the "disease".

Also, lets stay away from bagging holden drivers here, its a hoon problem, not a holden problem. The hoon laws were brought in for this reason.

Its a shame they didn't take each other out. One more family gutted by the road toll.

Bloody well said, Like i always say it's not the car that makes the hoon, It's the hoon that makes the car.
Best thing for everyone even if it's not the "Aussie way" To report people driving stupid and racing, Not only might you save there life more importantly you might save someone else's because of them.

Best to the family and may they get some justice and these fools get what they deserve!..
And may they never operate something as little as a PS2 Car game again. Hit the bus fools!.

[merlin]

Had a few talks with people in the know today...

IMO seems a whole lot of media hype now - some facts:
1) Eye witness saw tyres pop (?) speed is known only to Crash Investigation Unit.
2) Fireman (note not policeman) at the scene said high impact speed. This road is 80km/h so even if you got t-boned at that, there is going to be a whole lot of disintegration happening.
3) Camry turned into the path of oncoming traffic after leaving the local trots.
4) Driver of the Mazda turned himself in and was released.

Seems like a very tragic accident to me. What a terrible way to go.

[MrEL]

It would be about the fifth fatality on that stretch of the highway within about five years or so.
All of them so far have had excessive speed as a major contributor to the accident.
I have been to the accident site last night. I find it hard to believe that witnesses saw types on the cars blow but to them locking them up when there is really stuff all skid marks there.
There could well be many contributing factors to it , including the fact that that section of the highway is off camber concrete. The EL steers horrible down there , at speed it would be very ordinary.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by merlin

Had a few talks with people in the know today...

IMO seems a whole lot of media hype now - some facts:
1) Eye witness saw tyres pop (?) speed is known only to Crash Investigation Unit.
2) Fireman (note not policeman) at the scene said high impact speed. This road is 80km/h so even if you got t-boned at that, there is going to be a whole lot of disintegration happening.
3) Camry turned into the path of oncoming traffic after leaving the local trots.
4) Driver of the Mazda turned himself in and was released.

Seems like a very tragic accident to me. What a terrible way to go.

That’s a pretty fair post, Merlin. There’s always a lot of emotion when things like this happen, however, people’s opinions tend to get caught up in with the moment and many people tend to jump on the media bandwagon before all of the facts are known.

Let’s face it. At this stage, there’s no proof the Commodore’s were street racing. They could have been travelling beside each other at the legal speed limit of 80 k/ph when the Camry turned in front of them. Also, many so called eye witness reports turn out to be more of what the witness thought instead of what they actually saw.

This is why they investigate these types of accidents very carefully.

When this goes to court, and if they find that the two Commodores were not actually street racing and were in fact travelling at the legal speed, what will people’s opinions be then?

For all we know, the bloke driving the Camry could have been half blind. We just don’t know. The police have not charged the commodore drivers at this stage. Somehow I think that they would know a little more about what happened than many here do.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

That’s a pretty fair post, Merlin. There’s always a lot of emotion when things like this happen, however, people’s opinions tend to get caught up in with the moment and many people tend to jump on the media bandwagon before all of the facts are known.

Let’s face it. At this stage, there’s no proof the Commodore’s were street racing. They could have been travelling beside each other at the legal speed limit of 80 k/ph when the Camry turned in front of them. Also, many so called eye witness reports turn out to be more of what the witness thought instead of what they actually saw.

This is why they investigate these types of accidents very carefully.

When this goes to court, and if they find that the two Commodores were not actually street racing and were in fact travelling at the legal speed, what will people’s opinions be then?

For all we know, the bloke driving the Camry could have been half blind. We just don’t know. The police have not charged the commodore drivers at this stage. Somehow I think that they would know a little more about what happened than many here do.

Totally agree - you really have to take emotion out of these things (hard to do) though the trained crash investigation guys are experts at it. There may have been other factors no one has mentioned yet at play too, or maybe not. Seems to me everyone involved may have been at fault. Time will tell.

[XR Davo]

This is the accident that's going to tip the balance from what I'm reading and seeing in the media. Reckon there's going to be a huge backlash and political pointscoring against the whole performance car industry over this. Supercar scare 2007 anyone?

[MrEL]

The eye witness reports dont exactly hold a lot of water. How can the tyres pop from braking when there is stuff all skids marks and the fact that both commodores were late model one which were factory fitted with ABS?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by MrEL

The eye witness reports dont exactly hold a lot of water. How can the tyres pop from braking when there is stuff all skids marks and the fact that both commodores were late model one which were factory fitted with ABS?

Excessive wear? Excessive heat from hard driving? Poor quality rubber? We have no photographs of the accident scene (presumably only the coppers do). Further ABS does squat all if its disabled (yes you can disable ABS on most vehicles if you know how, I don't know why you would on the street, maybe a track day).

Right now, apart from the drivers themselves I'd say the accident investigation squad has the best idea of what went on. The cops probably released the drivers until they determine what happened because they cannot charge someone without satisfying all the conditions of a particular offense (and have evidence). I expect that they will be charged once they have enough evidence.

[Aeron]

Smh.com.au

But on Sunday evening they were killed just minutes from their home when their car was struck by two others on the Great Western Highway. Police suspect the vehicles were involved in an illegal street race just before 6.30pm.

The couple had been driving along the highway and were hit when they tried to turn right.

They tried to turn right? The lady in the Camry turned in front of the 2 cars, causing the crash. The guys in the 2 Commodores didn’t lose control of their cars, the lady turned in front of them. Perhaps there should be a review of elderly drivers driving at night.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t condone street racing, but there is a lot more to take into consideration with this incident. More than what the pathetic media wants highlight.

[nugget378]

The tyres dont look popped in the pics I saw in the paper today..

The rhetoric in the article made me feel like vomiting.

[Nikked]

True, Older drivers tend to do silly stuff like not see oyu and turn infront of you, or misjudge things. But, hype sells papers, all they need to say is "Tragic" "young" "Perfomace" "Possibly speeding" and all of a sudden the focus isn't on the elederly drivers who may have caused an accident, but young drivers and/or perfomance cars.

[colossus]

Originally Posted by Aeron

Smh.com.au


They tried to turn right? The lady in the Camry turned in front of the 2 cars, causing the crash. The guys in the 2 Commodores didn’t lose control of their cars, the lady turned in front of them. Perhaps there should be a review of elderly drivers driving at night.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t condone street racing, but there is a lot more to take into consideration with this incident. More than what the pathetic media wants highlight.

Exactly, whether they were street racing or not is almost irrelevant - the Camry was at fault as they failed to give way to an oncoming vehicle. Where is the uproar about elderly drivers not obeying the road rules? It's all hype, hype and more media hype - what a surprise.

[BadMac]

Heres a series of 6 pics of the scene.

2 V6 commies. one VT, one VY.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap...0140-3,00.html

Looks like a pretty hard impact to me, but 60+60 head on would do much damage. Also the Camry seems to have taken the hit just off front on but consistent with turning right.

Lastly one report said the dead man was ejected from the car dying instantly, would that suggest he wasn't wearing a seatbelt? Anyway, until the facts are known this will just be a boy racers = death story, the media will move on and if the facts turn out differently they won't report it, cause it dosen't fit their crusade.

[dinga]

Originally Posted by merlin

Had a few talks with people in the know today...

IMO seems a whole lot of media hype now - some facts:
1) Eye witness saw tyres pop (?) speed is known only to Crash Investigation Unit.
2) Fireman (note not policeman) at the scene said high impact speed. This road is 80km/h so even if you got t-boned at that, there is going to be a whole lot of disintegration happening.
3) Camry turned into the path of oncoming traffic after leaving the local trots.
4) Driver of the Mazda turned himself in and was released.

Seems like a very tragic accident to me. What a terrible way to go.

As this appears to be an informed post by eye witnesses, I think they need to check their facts.

Here are a couple of amendments.

Item 2 above. It is definately in a 60 zone. It turns into an 80 zone some 250 to 300 metres up the road. (Heading towards Penrith)

Item 3 above. The local trots are at Penrith. About 25 kms away. The only time the trots are on at Penrith is on a THURSDAY night. The couple may have been leaving the local band club where he was recently made President. I don't know. But this "Fact" is not really relevant, they could of been returning from a family day out.

I think that everyone should pull their collective heads in until the coroners report is released.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by dinga

. I don't know. But this "Fact" is not really relevant, they could of been returning from a family day out.
.

It is what I was told, and believed it (seeing another report also mentioned the local trots - yes I am familiar with where they are) - its relevant when you think about what happens at these local clubs - alcohol may have been a factor. I wasn't there though - just commentating on what I have heard. In the end the alcohol factor may be completely wrong...either way as I said, a terrible tragedy.

[MrEL]

Dinga The local trots being the paceway is about 8-9kms from there not 25.
Being a Penrith boy as you say you would be aware that the paceway is open as a club all week not just when the trots are on. It actually goes off on a Friday night.
Also he had just resigned as President of the Band Club , not just become it.
The point I am raising here is do not be so quick to critisise about some facts when you dont quite have them right yourself.
I highly doubt they were leaving the bandclub as it and its carparks are up the road in the totally opposite direction. They were coming from Penrith. There was no way to be turning right where they were if they left the band club.

[bostrow]

Originally Posted by MrEL

Dinga The local trots being the paceway is about 8-9kms from there not 25.
Being a Penrith boy as you say you would be aware that the paceway is open as a club all week not just when the trots are on. It actually goes off on a Friday night.
Also he had just resigned as President of the Band Club , not just become it.
The point I am raising here is do not be so quick to critisise about some facts when you dont quite have them right yourself.
I highly doubt they were leaving the bandclub as it and its carparks are up the road in the totally opposite direction. They were coming from Penrith. There was no way to be turning right where they were if they left the band club.

There is parking on that side of the Band Club. You turn into the street behind the Brewhouse pub off Charles Hackett Drive and leaving the Band Club they would be turning right off Charles Hackett onto the Great Western Highway to go to Penrith which is were the accident occured. Their son drinks at the same pub as me and from what he knows they had a green light to turn.

[bostrow]

Originally Posted by bostrow

There is parking on that side of the Band Club. You turn into the street behind the Brewhouse pub off Charles Hackett Drive and leaving the Band Club they would be turning right off Charles Hackett onto the Great Western Highway to go to Penrith which is were the accident occured. Their son drinks at the same pub as me and from what he knows they had a green light to turn.

I'm not saying that they were at the band club and that i've talked to the son it's just the local pub talk. They could of been coming from Penrith and turned right onto Pages rd. If you know that intersection you'll see a couple of crosses about 50m towards Penrith.

[SNB05T]

terrible waste of life.

i won't bag out the idiots racing other than saying sunday night at 630pm on a main rd in st marys : (they'll get enough of the bagging from everyone else).
its a scene that will play over and over in their small brains for the rest of their lives.

on a sort of related topic, did anyone see the article on today tonight. tonight?
are these guys wnkers or not? they show videos of people racing both on the road and at the track (you can tell the difference) and people doing burnouts on a skid pan again away from the road :

i don't even think they research or watch the footage before they put it up on tv for the do gooders to start bagging the genuine enthusiasts.

with reporters like this, what chance do we have???????????

rant over

[MrEL]

I was under the impression that they were turning right from the highway onto pages road.

[Rodp]

Charges laid over fatal highway crash:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=67031

"The man has been charged with two counts of dangerous driving occasioning death and one count of negligent driving occasioning death.

He also faces a charge "relating to street racing", the police spokesman said"

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Charges laid over fatal highway crash:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=67031

"The man has been charged with two counts of dangerous driving occasioning death and one count of negligent driving occasioning death.

He also faces a charge "relating to street racing", the police spokesman said"

Hmm I can't say I didn't expect this result, it was only a matter of time before the police had everything they needed to pin it on them. I wonder if they'll charge the second driver.

[ltd]

Regards to the fellow who mentioned them being Holden, I heard on several news bulletins on Monday that the drivers had been seen at the Holden Ute show on Sunday afternoon before the accident, so it is indeed related to this incident.
I don't think anyone could blame the driver of the camry; from all accounts the vehicles were travelling in excess of 140km/h which closes the distance almost twice as fast as the speed limit. The Boy Racer idiots here are responsible, and if it were my case I would charge them both with manslaughter. 15-25 years. They cannot be charged with murder as this would need to be proven to be premeditated and in this case you can't extrapolate a motive. It was an accident; but an accident resulting in death. They should do time for this, but in NSW where the jails are full, they will get councilling and a suspended sentence.

[Aeron]

Originally Posted by ltd

I don't think anyone could blame the driver of the camry; from all accounts the vehicles were travelling in excess of 140km/h which closes the distance almost twice as fast as the speed limit.

I can. There were the 2 Holden’s and a Mazda.................... that’s 6 headlight coming towards the Camry. The lady in the Camry stuffed up, plain and simple. When im about to turn into a street, I have more than a quick glance at the oncoming traffic so I can judge the speed of the vehicles. And let me tell you, if they were travelling “in excess of 140Km/h” the driver of the Holden would be dead too.

I do think the drivers should be charged with street racing, because they were, but being charged with dangerous driving causing death is a bit rich, when the Camry caused the thing in the first place.