Victorians going to pay out our *****!!!!

Originally Posted by ESP

That very well maybe............however on a per capita basis, Australia has one of the largest pollution/ carbon emission quantities in the world. If India and China were to produce the same quantity per person.......everyone on the planet would have to wear gas masks and we would probably have a permanent global pollution cloud that would block out the sun on every nation on earth......!!!!!

Interesting times ahead...........

Have you ever been to India/China? If you need bread/milk here, you have to drive generally at least 5mins to get to a supermarket. I would say most Aussies travel about 20,000km PA in their cars because it's a large land mass with a small population.

Manhattan, one of the dirtiest, most populated and polluted parts of the USA has one of the lowest per capita energy and carbon consumption. It's hardly suprising.

These facts can be used to explain anything. Kyoto was a joke, they set these targets which many of the European nations exceed by more than 10 times. Australia would obliterate much of the world if it were scored by Kyoto standards, why the hell would anyone waste time signing a useless piece of junk.

This whole thing's built up to be much bigger than it really is.

[mad cow]

pure and simple we already get slugged extra for the joy of having a larger engine, by paying excessive amounts for our already overtaxed fuel. maybe bracks and rudd need to go and do a combined harold holt and save us some grief........................

[56L]

Originally Posted by mad cow

pure and simple we already get slugged extra for the joy of having a larger engine, by paying excessive amounts for our already overtaxed fuel. maybe bracks and rudd need to go and do a combined harold holt and save us some grief........................

I think they have already started to dig their own grave so by 2010 they might not be in power and then everything will be back to normal(hopefully)

[Tles]

After several years of the public finally getting some bucks in the wallet getting fat and comfortable - it is funny how it is now time to get out the scare tactics and strip as much of that back in "sorry but we know what's best for you" taxes, unavoidable service and rate rises and charges.
The fact that this country has done next to nothing to drought proof itself in the last 15-20 years and shelved all the planned dams and enviro flows without reason or excuse shows that water was considered too cheap and therefore ripe to ration then (esential services) bump up the price and privatise. They just didn't expect things to get quite this bad. We are a first world nation which cannot provide its citizens with clean clear free healthy water....hmmm. The dams will be missed badly when we start getting California style fires every year burning down the holiday homes and eco getaways of those city bound caffeine fuelled enviropuritanists. The country boys will be once again forced to get off the tractor and into the CFA trucks to race out and rescue the same bludgers who spend all week trying to work out ways to punish them for making a living off the land. Same as they do when it does rain and the water runs off the parched arid ecosystems, taking topsoil and trappable water with it out to sea, via these same houses.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by Shounak

Have you ever been to India/China? If you need bread/milk here, you have to drive generally at least 5mins to get to a supermarket. I would say most Aussies travel about 20,000km PA in their cars because it's a large land mass with a small population.

No...........but we have an office in China and I speak with our people there on a daily basis......... the attitudes to how they live their lives is changing faster than most people change their television channels.

Its also sad cultural behaviour that most of us would rather drive 2 minutes to the Milk Bar than walk 10 minutes to get there !!!!!!..but that's how it is.........for now.

As the Chinese and Indian populations expand due to their increased reliance on cars , they too will be driving to get to the corner store in the none too distant future.........cars are becoming more and more accesible to the average Chinese and Indian families.......their habits are changing and their expectations are also changing.........they want to enjoy the things that we take for granted..........Yes we travel on average of 20,000 Klm per annum, but how much of that is for leisure and how much for absolute necessity ????

EDIT : I don't necessarily agree with the carbon TAX........or KYOTO..........far from it............Time would be much better spent if our societal intelligencia were given the time and funds.......carte blanche..........to investigate, test, and make feasible a new renewable energy resource...........NOW.......whether it be new viral battery technologies............new solar technologies..........hydrogen.........methane derivative......whatever.........

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by TTonka

After several years of the public finally getting some bucks in the wallet getting fat and comfortable - it is funny how it is now time to get out the scare tactics and strip as much of that back in "sorry but we know what's best for you" taxes, unavoidable service and rate rises and charges.
The fact that this country has done next to nothing to drought proof itself in the last 15-20 years and shelved all the planned dams and enviro flows without reason or excuse shows that water was considered too cheap and therefore ripe to ration then (esential services) bump up the price and privatise. They just didn't expect things to get quite this bad. We are a first world nation which cannot provide its citizens with clean clear free healthy water....hmmm. The dams will be missed badly when we start getting California style fires every year burning down the holiday homes and eco getaways of those city bound caffeine fuelled enviropuritanists. The country boys will be once again forced to get off the tractor and into the CFA trucks to race out and rescue the same bludgers who spend all week trying to work out ways to punish them for making a living off the land. Same as they do when it does rain and the water runs off the parched arid ecosystems, taking topsoil and trappable water with it out to sea, via these same houses.

Brilliantly said mate!! (please don't start me on Melbourne Water, or dams!)

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by boss-290

** EDIT**

Well......aint that the sad truth..........I hear we're heading towards $2.50 per litre by the end of the year...........so drive your heart out now while its an absolute bargain at $1.70..........

[Tles]

Originally Posted by ESP

Exactly my point........

These people are becoming more and more affluent as oil is bringing a relatively cheap energy source to countries like India and China. They are industrialising faster than anyone thought possible........they have tasted the good life that you and I have been taking for granted for all of our lives.........they will now no longer tolerate the mud huts and the 3rd world living conditions which means we now have a relative population exceeding 2 billion that is for the 1st time seriously competing with us and the USA and Europe for the worlds most readily available energy source.............OIL

As these countries are prepared to pay more and more to ensure they keep their momentum going, we will all suffer the intolerable prices that are heading our way............the carbon emission tax is an effort to regulate our useage to ensure we all have enough clean air to breathe when these countries really start to put the hammer down on their push to expand their industries.

The irony is that we have been at the forefront of capitalism and industrialisation..............now that we have taught our neighbours how to do it.............we want to stop them because the very thing we tried to culture will be the very thing that will threaten our very existence as a society as we know it today........

I'm sure you were quite happy to save the 5% here or 20% there to buy something which was made in India or China or Indonesia. Just a shame that now the local manufacturing workers no longer have any overtime or extra cash in the pocket to feed into the economy, because of "economic mannagement", everyone has to buy everything cheaper and then cheaper again. So now that there is no fat in selling any product or service, all the companies are lean and world's best practise the marketplace is down to the meat on the bones. Now you have to pay more and more for the basics to support and maintain other nations hunger for improved lifestyles, and their manufacturing industries.

Ford paid his workers more to perpetuate a growing economy and market for his product. That was the US mass production miracle - UK copied but the beancounters could never see the logic in "overpaying" the workers so it failed. Same thing happening now. Those extra dollars going back into the workers pays, which then circulate right around the baker, butcher, lawyer and on and on are gone - so is the economic backbone of the nation.

[SSbaby]

As if we don't have enough hardship given the fuel crisis, high interest rates and inflation... along comes a new federal govt hell bent on adding more pressure to the family budget.

Timing is everything... surely we could wait a couple of years to see if things stabilise before slugging consumers with another tax?

Anyway, I don't see how the govt is being proactive about the whole carbon emissions issue. If they were serious about zero emissions we'd be running nuclear energy... but I don't want to veer off track on this discussion.

It just appears to be another 'speed kills' campaign under a different banner, that's all.

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by charliewool

I don't CARE about "per capita"... Read what I said!... Australia's emissions are 1.43% of the World's total!! Our entire carbon emissions would have less effect than India farting after a hot curry!
Your Australian high emission "per capita" is basically because we are (at present!) a modern civilised, independant, employed, westernised, motorised, heated, cooled, well fed, nicely clothed, comfortable population!
The reason China & India don't produce this high "per capita" IS because (At THIS stage) 90% of their population are hoofing it or riding bloody bikes!
Well guys... Get the (imported) Malvern Star's tyres pumped up, cos WE'RE next!

Mate, what you say is so true but christ, I busted a gut laughing at how you put it.

I shuldnt laugh, so sorry.

[Sourbastard]

14,700 years ago with a 22-degree-Fahrenheit spike in just 50 years, the ice age started to decline. That was without motor cars, purely by atmospheric shift. The ice age has been in its last throws for a good long while, life existed here before the glaciers, icebergs, cute penguins and such, and will exist long after.

I keep telling people this, but they seem far too indoctrinated by the pseudo science of our time. Polar Ice is a temporary condition of this planet. It will melt completely, the niche species that live there, will die or adapt(more likely die). Thats a fact of life. One day, it will likely be our turn as a species as well. The planet has existed without polar ice far longer than it has existed with. Antarctica used to be packed with Dinosaurs ffs.

SHOULD we be wringing our hands, taxing the crap out of society, based on a global climate change that WE CANNOT POSSIBLY STOP. Frankly, our money and time would be better spent trying to work out how WE can adapt our society, industry, agriculture and economy to survive a changed planet.

Nah, panic and tax first, starve later, far easier.

[Mark351]

Our medieval ancestors survived the 'warm period', and so will we. Big business however will exploit global warming fanaticism to generate trillions of dollars to line fat pigs pockets.

[SSbaby]

I wonder how the oil companies will have to comply with the new carbon emissions rules? Would the oil companies just pass the tax on to the consumer (i.e. tax plus excise)?

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I wonder how the oil companies will have to comply with the new carbon emissions rules? Would the oil companies just pass the tax on to the consumer (i.e. tax plus excise)?

Apparently the local Mobil / Exxon Gluttons are already whingeing that in order to comply........they will have to fork out too much money to make the necessary infrastructure changes so they'd be prepared to shut down their Victorian refinery operations.........hundred would lose their jobs

What a joke............

[SVTVNM]

Originally Posted by snappy84

it is a joke . its just out of control i know some parts of vic the council charges people for the amount of rain water they catch in there dam. I just struggle to see how all this is justified .

All those people putting in for the cash back from councils when installing water tanks are going to regret the day they did. Because it won't be long before the councils charge for the water the tanks collect. I would almost put money on this happening.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by ESP

Exactly my point........

These people are becoming more and more affluent as oil is bringing a relatively cheap energy source to countries like India and China. They are industrialising faster than anyone thought possible........they have tasted the good life that you and I have been taking for granted for all of our lives.........they will now no longer tolerate the mud huts and the 3rd world living conditions which means we now have a relative population exceeding 2 billion that is for the 1st time seriously competing with us and the USA and Europe for the worlds most readily available energy source.............OIL

As these countries are prepared to pay more and more to ensure they keep their momentum going, we will all suffer the intolerable prices that are heading our way............the carbon emission tax is an effort to regulate our useage to ensure we all have enough clean air to breathe when these countries really start to put the hammer down on their push to expand their industries.

I'm a little confused.. you seem to be suggesting that implementing a carbon tax will allow us to breathe since we no longer can afford to use cars, heat and light when India and China go ballistic in their industrial spree with no regulations on their own carbon emissions.

In essence we're swapping our lifestyle with India and China. I think I might go out and shop for a mud hut early this time and beat the price rise.

[bob^]

Sourbastard for Prime Minister

[Bearman]

Originally Posted by charliewool

China & India (probably the worst offenders) have said.. "Stuff you, Our efforts to fight climate change MUST NOT come at the expense of economic growth"!!

Well surprise surprise!! How could anyone not see that one comming!! Considering our scale on a global basis it will be an excercise in futility. We (as in Rudd) says we should be good global citizens and lead by example. All that will achieve is to bankrupt us all and make us even more vunerable for exploitation by other nations.

Look what happened in the '80's with global trade. The Hawke government took us down the path of tariff cuts and a so called "level playing field". We've been *** raped ever since. The same will happen with carbon trading etc.

The USA have always dictated terms and as for China and India well screw them!! Bomb them back to the stone age!!

[SB076]

Originally Posted by ESP

Apparently the local Mobil / Exxon Gluttons are already whingeing that in order to comply........they will have to fork out too much money to make the necessary infrastructure changes so they'd be prepared to shut down their Victorian refinery operations.........hundred would lose their jobs

What a joke............

Not only that but there profit margins will somehow increase when carbon trading starts (they will profiteer like many big business with the introduction of carbon trading cause the vast no. of people will not be able to fully understand it)

[ogtrip]

Originally Posted by atec77

The only answer you have is use your vote
visit your local member and make them listen , I fish and drive and vote , I sense a double dissolution coming on

Our votes me jack all. The government as a whole wanted Labour to win so they prey on the weak and people who dont care to vote for them. Liberal would have won if they wanted too. Anyway the government doesnt run this country, in south australia its BHPB in the north and Allen Scott Transport in the south. they say jump the government says "How high?" - IMO

I highly doubt a double dissolution is coming. Were all rooted and theres nothing we can do about it.

Liberal brought in GST to replace income tax so that drug dealers and pimps and the like would still get taxed. yet labour go do not place GST on everything and keep income tax. F all is GST free. there all working together and were all getting rooted six ways from sunday - IMO

Now thats only what I think but I had to write it down....... fell better now.

Anyway new to the forum, will post pics soon and a spill. BF MkII XR6T Ute

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by Rodp

I'm a little confused.. you seem to be suggesting that implementing a carbon tax will allow us to breathe since we no longer can afford to use cars, heat and light when India and China go ballistic in their industrial spree with no regulations on their own carbon emissions.

In essence we're swapping our lifestyle with India and China. I think I might go out and shop for a mud hut early this time and beat the price rise.

Not at all......perhaps you misread my intention.........

I was suggesting that I'd be happy to comply and fork out of my pocket additional money if and when the CARBON tax was implemented if EVERYONE complied. I agree that the current scheme really looks like a subsidy to ensure China gets going with minimum disruption whilst the rest of us will be penalised for living the way we do !!!!!!!!!!!

The irony here again is that the more CHINA industrialises and the more affluent they get , the more resources they consume and the more they need to purchase those resources. The bulk of their mineral resources for their insatiable appetite comes from AUS. So we actually make money from their deregulated spree...........In fact our latest IRON ORE deal sees an increase of over 70% in price per ton that we are charging them !!!!!!!!!!

My advice would be to buy property on one of the fastest growing mainland provinces over there....learn to speak Mandarin and plan on your family having to emigrate over there in the none too distant future.............How does that saying go again...........if you can't beat em.......JOIN EM.........................

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

14,700 years ago with a 22-degree-Fahrenheit spike in just 50 years, the ice age started to decline. That was without motor cars, purely by atmospheric shift. The ice age has been in its last throws for a good long while, life existed here before the glaciers, icebergs, cute penguins and such, and will exist long after.

I keep telling people this, but they seem far too indoctrinated by the pseudo science of our time. Polar Ice is a temporary condition of this planet. It will melt completely, the niche species that live there, will die or adapt(more likely die). Thats a fact of life. One day, it will likely be our turn as a species as well. The planet has existed without polar ice far longer than it has existed with. Antarctica used to be packed with Dinosaurs ffs.

SHOULD we be wringing our hands, taxing the crap out of society, based on a global climate change that WE CANNOT POSSIBLY STOP. Frankly, our money and time would be better spent trying to work out how WE can adapt our society, industry, agriculture and economy to survive a changed planet.

Nah, panic and tax first, starve later, far easier.

Best post to date and how bloody true it is, this carbon trading is just antoehr way to get money from hard working ppls pockets. And no i never voted for Kevo

[da_ilks]

The problem is if every other developed nation does nothing, the near 2 billion coming of age in India and China will argue why should they waste their time limiting emmissions if advanced soceity's like Australia and the US don't want to?

It's a touchy situation. Obviously no one needs the extra burden of another tax, yet how do we sit there and tell China and India not to destroy the air and environment if we are quite happy to do it as well? It's hypocritical.

Having said that, a carbon trading scheme is really just a way for people to profit from a madeup piece of paper.

BTW - for those arguing we contribute less then 2%, per capita is a far fairer indicator then total output.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by da_ilks

The problem is if every other developed nation does nothing, the near 2 billion coming of age in India and China will argue why should they waste their time limiting emmissions if advanced soceity's like Australia and the US don't want to?

It's a touchy situation. Obviously no one needs the extra burden of another tax, yet how do we sit there and tell China and India not to destroy the air and environment if we are quite happy to do it as well? It's hypocritical.

Having said that, a carbon trading scheme is really just a way for people to profit from a madeup piece of paper.

BTW - for those arguing we contribute less then 2%, per capita is a far fairer indicator then total output.

Give the man a medal..........finally someone that gets the BIGGER picture without any narrow mindedness.

Of course per capita is a much better way of measuring these things because it shows cultural acceptance...........it's here where things get complex because cultural acceptance drives mass behaviour.............and if we have the same mass behaviour world wide...........well then there's your BIG problem.

[uranium_death]

What sucks is my property have a garden full of trees, shrubs etc. which would help lessen carbon dioxide. It might be minimal, but at least we've made the effort to have greenery in our yard. We choose to drive a six cylinder for crumple zone and interior space.

I'm not buying Al Gore's carbon credits ever...I see it as scaremongering, and using guilt to sell people a virtual product to make one or more persons rich...get stuffed.

It's stupid how people who drive biggers cars are charged more on registration to suggest that we should drive smaller cars, while the people who set these rules drive guzzlers themselves and charge all its costs to taxpayers.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by da_ilks

The problem is if every other developed nation does nothing, the near 2 billion coming of age in India and China will argue why should they waste their time limiting emmissions if advanced soceity's like Australia and the US don't want to?

It's a touchy situation. Obviously no one needs the extra burden of another tax, yet how do we sit there and tell China and India not to destroy the air and environment if we are quite happy to do it as well? It's hypocritical.

Having said that, a carbon trading scheme is really just a way for people to profit from a madeup piece of paper.

BTW - for those arguing we contribute less then 2%, per capita is a far fairer indicator then total output.

You make a fair comment, the only trouble is we have zero chance of China and India following our example, the have stated as much.
So at the end of the day all that's happening is more hardship on the average Australian with basically Zero difference made to emissions as a whole.

[mik]

at the end of the day this little planet is having a hard time coping with the population we are putting on it, wether the global warming is caused by us or not down the track it may well hit the fan, then if it does all countries will think a bit more about sustaining the planet, a bit of trivia does any one how much a litre of fuel is in kuwait? 13 cents :(.

[stockel]

Seems like new taxes are introduced more than current ones abolished doesn't it.

Anyway no point worrying about any of these issues too much I guess, I will accept them and wait for things to get really messy before anything meaningful is actually done.

It should all take care of itself in the end, when we run out of food or something and most of us die so lets just relax and let nature (human nature) take its course.

[JMO]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

You make a fair comment, the only trouble is we have zero chance of China and India following our example, the have stated as much.
So at the end of the day all that's happening is more hardship on the average Australian with basically Zero difference made to emissions as a whole.

Show them by force. Send in the troops :P (A worthy cause for the Rainbow Warrior)

As for 13 cents a litre, I'd be more than happy with it going back down to $1.00/litre. Doesn't Australia have vast quantities of natural gas? Why don't we find a way to use it to power engines (assuming LPG is an oil derivative) so that we can pay a similar low price for fuel?

[neatebxr8]

Originally Posted by SVTVNM

Sorry but this is going to be a rant. Reading the Herald Sun this Morning and on page 4, I read that the ineviatable is going to happen, all of us driving/owning anything other than a 4cylinder are probably going to have to pay extra or be slugged extra taxes because of what we drive, and this whole carbon emission Bull@#$t. I know that some other states have higher rego for 6/8's but what a croc. There a a few people on this Forum I have noticed( actually more than a few) who own more than 1 V8. Now, my problem is that you can only drive one car at a time, and most of all a well tuned early V8 and any late model V8 more than likely produce less emissions that any clapped out 4 cylinder buring oil and running like s@%t, but these people will more than likely get bonuses because of the cars they drive on face value. I don't know how many time Ihave been in traffic and had to choke on the fumes of some s%$t box. The majority of times it is always a small car rarely have I noticed it being anything other than a 4 cylinder or the odd V6/I6.

I thought back (and I am a bit hazy on this so correct me if I am wrong) in the early nineties or late eighties that they scraped rego charges and applied a levy on fuel as a substitute and we only paid for third party insurance (TAC charge). This to me seemed a fair compromise as the more fuel your car used, the more you paid in "registration". But of course since then, we had further levies on fuel to cover things like the Pyramid bank fallout and other things and surprise surprise they started to reintroduce the rego fees (cant remember when that started to happen) and they have gradually increased it since. Rego for my EB xr8 is now over $500 and I now pay more in rego charges than I do in putting fuel in it for a year (although the way fuel prices are going up that may change) as I only use it every now and then, mostly for sunday drives or open road trips where it doesn't use much more fuel than the 4cyl combo van that I drive for work. So where does it all end, the bastards seem to find any excuse to get more money out of us tax payers, the Xr8 is about the last of my pleasures (cant drink much any more because they have stuffed that, although I could always start buying bottles of spirits instead and mix me own) but it will have to go if it gets much dearer to keep on the road. Its becomming increasingly harder just to make ends-meat now and I am sure there are many like me.