Solution to australian job issues

[cob115]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

We export these kind of 'cars'

We export alot more than we import, we cant afford to become protectionist

well said

[RPO83]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Why do people keep saying that Holden and Ford do not build what people want?

THE COMMODORE IS STILL THE HIGHEST SELLING CAR IN AUSTRALIA!!!!!!!!!

You have to look at market share though. Large car segments have been dwindling for over a decade now. I'm sure companies like Kodak wouldn't be around today if they rested on their laurels and never moved into digital technology.

Holden and Ford are both finally diversifying their portfolio but with the falling demand in large sedans each consecutive year the Commodore will absolutely not be the best selling car in a few years.

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

None directly, SAIC makes a version of the Statesman in China which is called a Buick Royale.

You need to look beyond tariffs applying to a particular industry; if we increased tariffs on Korean and Japanese cars, either country could respond in kind by placing tariffs on our exports of meat/livestock/wheat/ore etc, which would make other exporters more of a viable position.

For instance place a tariff on Japanese cars, and our largest trading parter (or 2nd largest depending on the time of day and China's orders) might turn around and place a tariff on our beef exports, resulting in an oportunity for Brazillian exporters of South American meat to provide the same quality product for a cheaper price.

Regardless, as I said in the other thread, I do not believe that my buying choices should be limited any further by any government; protectionism in the automotive industry is a stupid concept to protect an alledgedly inferior local industry that has been mismanaged in that it has failed to have in place proper product planning.

Unfortunately, our big three severly misread the market back in 1999-2001; now they are paying the price and playing catch-up to the rest of the world in nearly every area of the needs/wishes of today's car buyers, whether it be a low cost car (Hyundai), a quality car (usual German suspects, Toyota, Lexus), a low cost quality car (Honda Accord, Mazda, VW) or small SUV (CR-V, Xtrail, Forrester)

You make some good points. I complain more than anyone about the Australian Government attempting to control almost everything I do, I don't know why I thought this would work.

Maybe if Ford revived the Cortina or RWD Capri with a choice of locally built engines they could sell a few cars. I'd probably at least go for a test drive.

[XR Martin]

Problem is building a small car costs virtually the same as a big one, yet obviously the small one sells for less.

So commenting on how Ford and Holden have been short sighted is being a little simplistic.

Also unlike Camera companies, car companies basically have to predict the market as far as 10 years ahead.

[dogfish]

Won't the price of second hand cars go through the roof?
Look at New Zealand they allow imports at reasonable rates and the local car market (Ford/Holden) don't rate there as much now in new car sales as the 10 year old import offers better options etc than the current Ford/Holden.
As it has been said earlier bring our locally made cars up to world class standard.
When I was in England in 1998 a friend of mine had an Audi A4 Quattro diesel yes diesel and it went like S@#t off a shiny shovel the options/ safety features in the car were amazing and the price over there was basically the same for a middle of the road ford or holden. Why???

[RPO83]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Problem is building a small car costs virtually the same as a big one, yet obviously the small one sells for less.

So commenting on how Ford and Holden have been short sighted is being a little simplistic.

Also unlike Camera companies, car companies basically have to predict the market as far as 10 years ahead.

The issue is they knew where the market was headed well over ten years ago but chose to do little. Building on an orphan platform will cost you far more than building a car that has already had the bulk of its R&D done already in the case of the Focus and Cruze.

It is good to see the bulk of posters can see some sense in the fact that protectionism is a very bad idea.

[BlackLS]

Is Oz Focus production still penned in for 2011

[mik]

i thought our cars were up to world class standard in most respects dollar for dollar?

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by mik

i thought our cars were up to world class standard in most respects dollar for dollar?

They are...

Despite what one posted claimed, a similar sized and featured car is alot more in Europe. Audi A6 3.0L TFSI is over £37k (AUD$76k)
G6ET is Ford's closest equivalent at $56k (216kw/420nm vs 270kw/533nm)

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by mik

i thought our cars were up to world class standard in most respects dollar for dollar?

Usually only in Australia (excuse the pun). The pricing of the euro brands here is so out of whack in comparison to actual standard wages and exchange rates its not funny. Of course much of this gets soaked up in tariff duties already.

Quick comparison of luxury vehicle prices in the UK to AUS:

Average UK wage £25,000 pa/$52,000
Average AUS wage $55,600

Benchmark:
Ford XR6T AUs Price $45490 (0.81x standard AUS wage)
FPV F6 AUS Price $66,590 (1.19x standard AUS wage)

Lux Brands
Audi S4 UK Price £43,555 (Pounds)/$90400 AUD (1.73x UK standard wage)
Audi S4 AUS Price $132,000 (2.37x standard AUS wage)

Lexus IS250 Sports Luxury UK Price £28877/$59,000 AUD (1.13x standard UK wage)
Lexus IS250 AUS Price $79,000 (1.42x standard AUS wage)

BMW 335i M Sport Coupe UK Price £36405/$75,000 AUD (1.44x standard UK wage)
BMW 335i Coupe AUS Price $111,950 (2.01x standard AUS wage)

BMW 550i V8 Sedan UK Price £46295/$96,000 AUD (1.84x standard UK wage)
BMW 550i V8 Sedan AUS Price $170,000 (3.03x standard AUS wage)

BMW 525i (3L most common make) UK Price £30865/$64,000 AUD (1.23x standard UK wage)
BMW 525i AUS Price $96,000. (1.72x standard wage)

[PALE ALE]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

That may be true, but what cars do we export to Korea and China?

Ask Ford,Holden about exporting cars to China,Japan,Korea etc. Thier cars are taxed, tariffed, dutied, out of the market. Why would G.M. build the statesman in China,when Holden build it here in Australia and they could export it to China

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

They are...

Despite what one posted claimed, a similar sized and featured car is alot more in Europe. Audi A6 3.0L TFSI is over £37k (AUD$76k)
G6ET is Ford's closest equivalent at $56k (216kw/420nm vs 270kw/533nm)

That Audi is a quattro though, probably allow an extra few k for the AWD setup, not to mention Audi has an envious reputation for quality.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by mik

i thought our cars were up to world class standard in most respects dollar for dollar?

The only car we offer that I would say competes on the world stage would be the FG G6ET. For the $$ it is good, barring some small issues here and there it is the highlight of the Aussie car making, but that is the problem, a single model. The whole of Ford Aus cannot survive with this one model, they need more range and more emphasis on the rest of their products. It isn't an Australian market anymore, it is a world market.

[Iggypoppin']

You could replace every American cab with an AU and that'd certainly change some minds about aus built cars.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by PALE ALE

Ask Ford,Holden about exporting cars to China,Japan,Korea etc. Thier cars are taxed, tariffed, dutied, out of the market. Why would G.M. build the statesman in China,when Holden build it here in Australia and they could export it to China

Japan has 0% tariffs on imported cars, Korea is about as low as ours (China is high). But what they do is have other ways of discouraging buyers to buy imported cars, which would be a smarter way of doing things.

Look at Thailand they are one of the biggest exporters of cars in the world. Australia have a FTA with them but if a car has more then a 3 liter motor on it it is subject to a environmental tax.

[OZQUAD44]

Its essentially a given that Tariffs aren't the way to go, but how do we compete with ultra low wages?

Perhaps our own government should buy more australian made products for a start! A maxim for purchasing within government organisations is value for money, which is a good thing. But buying Australian made is way way down the list as far as priority goes.

seems strange that our government purports to prop up our automotive industry then proceeds to buy foreign cars. If its good enough to prop up, then surely its worth using the product?

[XplosiveR6]

Originally Posted by RPO83

The issue is they knew where the market was headed well over ten years ago but chose to do little. Building on an orphan platform will cost you far more than building a car that has already had the bulk of its R&D done already in the case of the Focus and Cruze.

It is good to see the bulk of posters can see some sense in the fact that protectionism is a very bad idea.

People always say "they knew where the market was heading". What a load of BS. as little as 5 years ago SUV's, and big Trucks where a huge hit, the number 1 seller in the US had been F100's for decades. In Australia everyone wanted a 4wd, which is why ford developed the Territory.

Suddenly fuel prices soared out of knowhere and a global ressesion hit. things changed in a Matter of 6 months, people started to become protective of their cash and layoffs started happening. Now everyone expects ford and holden to change their whole portfolio within 6-12 months and start making small cars like a flick of the switch, Even though fuel prices are the lowest they have been in years!

No cars are selling, not just large cars but all sorts, even Toyota are struggling. Sometimes things arnt so simple. and although alot of people think they can, we cant predict the future.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by BlackLS

Is Oz Focus production still penned in for 2011

Thats a bit late though, thats a while away.

[RPO83]

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

People always say "they knew where the market was heading". What a load of BS. as little as 5 years ago SUV's, and big Trucks where a huge hit, the number 1 seller in the US had been F100's for decades. In Australia everyone wanted a 4wd, which is why ford developed the Territory.

Suddenly fuel prices soared out of knowhere and a global ressesion hit. things changed in a Matter of 6 months, people started to become protective of their cash and layoffs started happening. Now everyone expects ford and holden to change their whole portfolio within 6-12 months and start making small cars like a flick of the switch, Even though fuel prices are the lowest they have been in years!

No cars are selling, not just large cars but all sorts, even Toyota are struggling. Sometimes things arnt so simple. and although alot of people think they can, we cant predict the future.

I was talking specifically about the large car segment. Back in 2001 I had a conversation about this issue with Geoff Polites and Ford knew then that the volumes would drop by 2010 dramatically. Was Geoff full of BS?

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

Thats a bit late though, thats a while away.

It takes just under 5 years from a drawing on a board to a car rolling off the line. For instance, AU was signed off in 1993!!!!!! The only reason Focus is getting here quicker is because it is a carry over model with a facelift.

The Holden Cruze is a Daewoo that is already in production all over the world. Holden will be sourcing them from Thailand until next year when the tooling will be completed and they will manufacture them in OZ. So even though Holden are manufacturing a current model vehicle, it will still take 18 months (or longer) before they roll them off the line.........

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by RPO83

I was talking specifically about the large car segment. Back in 2001 I had a conversation about this issue with Geoff Polites and Ford knew then that the volumes would drop by 2010 dramatically. Was Geoff full of BS?

Very good point, Ford announced Focus production nearly 2 years ago, I think they did see it coming to an extent. But they never saw the global financial crisis coming, however, Ford are one of the best manufacturers to weather the storm due to the low staff levels. We already are running a skeleton crew and are still profitable at this level of sales. Fingers are crossed though, that Focus will get Ford back to number 1 in Oz.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

It takes just under 5 years from a drawing on a board to a car rolling off the line. For instance, AU was signed off in 1993!!!!!! The only reason Focus is getting here quicker is because it is a carry over model with a facelift.

The Holden Cruze is a Daewoo that is already in production all over the world. Holden will be sourcing them from Thailand until next year when the tooling will be completed and they will manufacture them in OZ. So even though Holden are manufacturing a current model vehicle, it will still take 18 months (or longer) before they roll them off the line.........

But wouldn't it have been a better idea to organise to get the Focus done locally years ago? I know it takes time, but the timing is a little off to me.

[JPFS1]

There is still no formal commitment by Ford HQ on Focus production in Australia. The project is said to be still under review as always all things are, a decision is expected later in the year.

No significant amounts of investment dollars have been committed to the plant upgrade for it, which makes sense given it's still not decided on. I know there is handful or two of engineers now working with other Ford NA and Europe and are looking at the plant upgrades and costs now.

We know the new car has a very high level of spec and technology, it's expected price points and they can now see it's going to cost more than they thought to build it here.

Wait and see.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

The only reason Focus is getting here quicker is because it is a carry over model with a facelift.

No it's an all new Body and carryover floor pan.....

Check out the Focus section for some 'artist' renditions of the car. I think it'll be a winner if it's built here.....

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

No it's an all new Body and carryover floor pan.....

Check out the Focus section for some 'artist' renditions of the car. I think it'll be a winner if it's built here.....

Exactly, all the underbody dies are built and to the best of my knowledge underpin the current focus. So therefore no try out needs to be done. So you have just saved six months there. Skin finish is a different story........

[LTDHO]

Buy Australian. It's the only answer.
No importing pats in from the US
Minimise what we import.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Buy Australian. It's the only answer.
No importing pats in from the US
Minimise what we import.

Patriotism means nothing if we do not make what the public want, or if we do not make it to a high enough standard. People do not want what we make anymore......

[DanielXR8]

No I don't support extra taxes on imports. For those of us old enough to remember the breathtaking arrogance and poor quality of cars and dealers under the "big three", when the attitude was you should be happy with what you get and can bugger off if you want better, then a return to the good old days is not welcome.

Much of the chronic problems with Ford and Holden are hangover attitudes and corporate practices from back then anyway. There are faint signs, but signs just the same with cars that have quality like the FG, that Ford are finally getting the idea that the good old days are gone and they need to do better.

Their dealer network, might take a few more years though to get the message.

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

As we are all aware, a large part of the the Australian media has pounced on the issues GM and to a lesser extent Ford appear to be having with money.

I have not done enough research to determine if this is true, but if it is then there may be some issues with a sudden and massive decline in Australian employment.

My question is, would you vote for a proposal by the the Australian Government to severely increase the price (import tax, whatever) of new imported cars to match the approximate price of our frankly much better locally built cars?

Not only would this increase new car sales in Australia for Ford and Holden and provide a lot of Australians with better job security, but it would help remove at least some of the Korean pussbuckets off our roads that (to me at least) are nothing more then an eyesore.

Anyone looking to purchase a new Hyundai would then be better off buying a second hand Aussie car, which would support sales of new Aussie cars even more.

All the current imported cars already in the country would still be allowed to be sold new or second hand as before, so unless they are quality stuff they will rot and deteriorate into history.

No - protectionism was one of the root causes of the great depression

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

They are...

Despite what one posted claimed, a similar sized and featured car is alot more in Europe. Audi A6 3.0L TFSI is over £37k (AUD$76k)
G6ET is Ford's closest equivalent at $56k (216kw/420nm vs 270kw/533nm)

Give me the G6ET over that thing any day.

I will never own another Audi

My short answer to the q posed in this thread:

"My question is, would you vote for a proposal by the the Australian Government to severely increase the price (import tax, whatever) of new imported cars to match the approximate price of our frankly much better locally built cars?"..

is YES because the FG deserves to succeed.

However it will never happen.

And thats a LONG one to answer