How often do you flash??? - Page 2

FPV+fteT3 · 13-05-2009, 08:15 PM

I am only a dumb leco but I am interested in what makes my car tic now my tuner who looks after my car explained to me a custom tune resets the parameters for timing, mixtures, idle etc to levels that he uploads via the flash unit to the car computer I get that part. I am trying to understand how the computer decides for it's self (depending on how you drive) the parameters it will use to drive the car why wouldn't the parameters set at the time of tuning say 6000rpm be different say months later in it's setting I just dont see how the car can vary an uploaded program so much?

Funny thing a couple of weeks ago the idle on the car started sticking and being erratic consulted the forum for advice cleaned the T/B and disconnected the battery for about 2 hrs took the oldgirl for a spanking and it went like the clappers dont know if it was the cleaning or resetting the computer by disconnecting the battery but the change was massive. It felt crisper definately quicker maybe I should reflash the custom tune and see how it goes.

Micksxboxmods · 13-05-2009, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fpv84d

I am only a dumb leco but I am interested in what makes my car tic now my tuner who looks after my car explained to me a custom tune resets the parameters for timing, mixtures, idle etc to levels that he uploads via the flash unit to the car computer I get that part. I am trying to understand how the computer decides for it's self (depending on how you drive) the parameters it will use to drive the car why wouldn't the parameters set at the time of tuning say 6000rpm be different say months later in it's setting I just dont see how the car can vary an uploaded program so much?

Funny thing a couple of weeks ago the idle on the car started sticking and being erratic consulted the forum for advice cleaned the T/B and disconnected the battery for about 2 hrs took the oldgirl for a spanking and it went like the clappers dont know if it was the cleaning or resetting the computer by disconnecting the battery but the change was massive. It felt crisper definately quicker maybe I should reflash the custom tune and see how it goes.

in lay terms mate, it adjust according to the info it recieves from all the sensors that input infor into the ECU.

It detects WOT and increases the injector pulse and duty cycle etc. It uses the coolant/air temp sensors to detect cold start or warm and adjusts the mixture accordingly.

All these inputs are used to ensure the best performance/ economy. If one sensor goes 't*ts Up' the ECU then has to compensate for this.

Not sure what kinda leco you are, but think of the ECU as a PLC and the sensors as inputs and outputs ;) It simply matches conditions.

In your case, it sounds like the TB or ISC solenoid was fouled up. A good power cycle also helped, could be resetting the sensor parameters.

BTW fpv84d just notice John does your car too, he does a great job doesn't he?

FPV+fteT3 · 13-05-2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

BTW fpv84d just notice John does your car too, he does a great job doesn't he?

Very similar numbers too!

That reply makes sense it explains how when a major failure occurs the computer makes allowances and enters a limp mode rather just stopping on the road the ECU set parameters dont change so much as the inputs from the sensors cause the changes and by infact resetting the computer ie powering down and back up any temporary stored info would be lost only leaving the written codes in the ecu making the car as good as when it left the tune shop. This would also explain F6FOON saying the car lost heaps of power, the ecu was reacting to the inputs from the various sensors and learnt signals and to a less extent the "written program" by reflashing it may remove the learnt sensor inputs?

RG · 13-05-2009, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micksxboxmods

no not at all mate, thats NOT what I said. Its not in your imagination at all. The common theme here is that the EEPROM is getting the blame for conditional changes when infact, it is possibly the most stable component of the ECU.

What I said was that it has to do with the ECU's supplied Inputs(sensors, conditional changes etc)
It could well be something small like plug condition, temperature, air temp, ISC, ignition timing etc A whole host of things.

Hope this clears it up a little.
Cheers
Mick

You've got to remember that our ECU's are adaptive so they can and do learn bad habits. This is the reason that a reflash helps, all the learnt info is deleted and it reverts to what the tuner asked of it.

Fireblade · 13-05-2009, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fpv84d

Very similar numbers too!

That reply makes sense it explains how when a major failure occurs the computer makes allowances and enters a limp mode rather just stopping on the road the ECU set parameters dont change so much as the inputs from the sensors cause the changes and by infact resetting the computer ie powering down and back up any temporary stored info would be lost only leaving the written codes in the ecu making the car as good as when it left the tune shop. This would also explain F6FOON saying the car lost heaps of power, the ecu was reacting to the inputs from the various sensors and learnt signals and to a less extent the "written program" by reflashing it may remove the learnt sensor inputs?

Pretty much what I was saying

Yeah just disconnecting the battery for a few minutes will do the same thing, but in mine the alarm goes off the whole time so is easier just to reflash it.

Micksxboxmods · 13-05-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fpv84d

Very similar numbers too!

That reply makes sense it explains how when a major failure occurs the computer makes allowances and enters a limp mode rather just stopping on the road the ECU set parameters dont change so much as the inputs from the sensors cause the changes and by infact resetting the computer ie powering down and back up any temporary stored info would be lost only leaving the written codes in the ecu making the car as good as when it left the tune shop. This would also explain F6FOON saying the car lost heaps of power, the ecu was reacting to the inputs from the various sensors and learnt signals and to a less extent the "written program" by reflashing it may remove the learnt sensor inputs?

exactly! the tune remains the same, it is flashed to an EEPROM.

This is why I replied in the first place as I know that the tune isn't changing, its all the other variables that are feeding the ECU.

FPV+fteT3 · 13-05-2009, 09:38 PM

Thats what I like about this place you can learn something every day maybe every time I get an oil change @ 7,500k's a reflash should be done. Dont guess there is a limit on how many times you can flash the eprom chip?

speedzter · 13-05-2009, 09:43 PM

I know after reflashing my Auto XR8, the shifts are way up in the rev range, even with light throttle until it re-learns.
A bit of a hassle with a cold engine !

Micksxboxmods · 13-05-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fpv84d

Thats what I like about this place you can learn something every day maybe every time I get an oil change @ 7,500k's a reflash should be done. Dont guess there is a limit on how many times you can flash the eprom chip?

In the case of an ECU it uses an EEPROM (electrically erasable read only memory), not EPROM(which are usually erased by UV light)

Most manufacturers rate their EEPROMS at around 1000-1000000 writes, however, the speed of the write can also dictate how long it lasts. As it is an unknown quantity in X2/X3's etc, I'd wanna flash as few times as possible.

Found this too(this could be what is causing probs):
The timespan over which a ROM remains accurately readable is not limited by write cycling. The data retention of EEPROM and Flash may be limited by charge leaking from the floating gates of the memory cell transistors. Leakage is exacerbated at high temperatures or in high-radiation environments.

Hope this helps guys.
Regards
Mick

FPV+fteT3 · 13-05-2009, 09:56 PM

Thanks Mick maybe just a power down and repower occasionally to wipe temporary stored info would be better than a reflash anyhow may see you at Johns one day.
Cheers
Steve.

Micksxboxmods · 13-05-2009, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG

You've got to remember that our ECU's are adaptive so they can and do learn bad habits. This is the reason that a reflash helps, all the learnt info is deleted and it reverts to what the tuner asked of it.

Thats correct, the ECU(as a whole) is adaptive,however, the EEPROM which stores the tune is not. It is a solid state device.

**Whoosha** · 13-05-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG

Who would flame you for that? You're right lol.

Even I notice the difference before and after a flash (that does not sound right!) as it clears the ECU's "learnt" memory and reverts to exactly what the tuner said it should do.

Eh what is this FLASH Tuner you yung uns talk of

:

... Long live the UNICHIP 1 tune 13s then 13s Now 4years on :Reverend: :SaiyanSmi Runs home to retirement village to find flamesuit

:

The Monty · 14-05-2009, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micksxboxmods

no not at all mate, thats NOT what I said. Its not in your imagination at all. The common theme here is that the EEPROM is getting the blame for conditional changes when infact, it is possibly the most stable component of the ECU.

What I said was that it has to do with the ECU's supplied Inputs(sensors, conditional changes etc)
It could well be something small like plug condition, temperature, air temp, ISC, ignition timing etc A whole host of things.

Hope this clears it up a little.
Cheers
Mick

Oh, ok. That makes much more sense. Thanks.

blueoval · 14-05-2009, 11:54 AM

I never knew some of the things you blokes are saying. And with my limited knowledge probably will only take on X amount of info.

But if I can summarise basically what this page is saying, its saying that the custom tune will not change, but the learnt memory has the ability to change the characteristics of the car based on your driving style/habits?

Fireblade · 14-05-2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

I never knew some of the things you blokes are saying. And with my limited knowledge probably will only take on X amount of info.

But if I can summarise basically what this page is saying, its saying that the custom tune will not change, but the learnt memory has the ability to change the characteristics of the car based on your driving style/habits?

Spot on Shav ;)

blueoval · 14-05-2009, 01:37 PM

The question still remains for me though, is it still ok to wipe the learnt memory with a reflash every few weeks or will this eventually do damage?

Fireblade · 14-05-2009, 01:41 PM

Instead of reflashing if your worried, just disconnect the battery for 5 mins every week/month or whatever you feel like

blueoval · 14-05-2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

Instead of reflashing if your worried, just disconnect the battery for 5 mins every week/month or whatever you feel like

Im not worried if there is no harm done to the ecu. If that is the case I will reflash weekly. What I would like to know is the truth is on the matter. Id prefer not to disconnect battery coz for me its a PITA. Is there any evidence to support that reflashing CAN cause damage to the learnt memory part of the ECU or similar areas of the ECU? ;)

xr8ute · 14-05-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG

You've got to remember that our ECU's are adaptive so they can and do learn bad habits. This is the reason that a reflash helps, all the learnt info is deleted and it reverts to what the tuner asked of it.

Exactly.

The reason why this is having any effect is because re-flash also clears the KAM (where all the adaptive learning is stored). Disconnecting the battery for a few minutes would have the same affect.

As I understand it, the more thorough the tune, the less correction the adaptive parts of the strategy will try to change the tune. But who is really prepared to pay for 20+ hours of tuning time, when reflashing every few weeks is so easy to do.

Possibly more of an issue for those with a "quick" tune from a less experienced tuner. Or for those with radically modified engines.

xr8ute · 14-05-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

But if I can summarise basically what this page is saying, its saying that the custom tune will not change, but the learnt memory has the ability to change the characteristics of the car based on your driving style/habits?

I dont believe it has anything at all to do with driving style/habits, but you have otherwise summarised this correctly.

And as has already been said, no damage from continually re-flashing.

blueoval · 14-05-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xr8ute

I dont believe it has anything at all to do with driving style/habits, but you have otherwise summarised this correctly.

And as has already been said, no damage from continually re-flashing.

Thanks for confirming this mate. This puts my mind at ease a bit.

Micksxboxmods · 14-05-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xr8ute

I dont believe it has anything at all to do with driving style/habits, but you have otherwise summarised this correctly.

And as has already been said, no damage from continually re-flashing.

sorry but the last time I checked, flashing an eeprom continually can and will eventually fail!

I program eeproms as part of my business and I can assure you that they can and do fail as a result of continual flashing. I also use far more sofisticated hardware to program them than a flash tuner(I can adjust the speed of the flash etc)

I'm not saying this to be some kind of 'killjoy', just as a word of caution and as I have extensive experience and qualifications in Electrical/Electronics & Avionics(on F/A-18 hornet) I am more that able to advise correctly ;)

Sure, go ahead and flash away, don't say I didn't warn you though.
Regards
Mick

blueoval · 14-05-2009, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micksxboxmods

sorry but the last time I checked, flashing an eeprom continually can and will eventually fail!

I program eeproms as part of my business and I can assure you that they can and do fail as a result of continual flashing. I also use far more sofisticated hardware to program them than a flash tuner(I can adjust the speed of the flash etc)

I'm not saying this to be some kind of 'killjoy', just as a word of caution and as I have extensive experience and qualifications in Electrical/Electronics & Avionics(on F/A-18 hornet) I am more that able to advise correctly ;)

Sure, go ahead and flash away, don't say I didn't warn you though.
Regards
Mick

I see. Hmm well what would be the likely symptoms of the ecu when it does fail? How many times can you reflash before the ecu is compromised?

Micksxboxmods · 14-05-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

I see. Hmm well what would be the likely symptoms of the ecu when it does fail? How many times can you reflash before the ecu is compromised?

your car wont start..

You will need a new EEPROM asa minimum, possibly new ECU, then you need to consider what that may do to your VIN lock on your flash tuner.

How long is a piece of string...you cannot say mate. If it goes 't*ts Up' you will be able to recover it, it will just cost you dollars, that all.

Perhaps I should get into ECU reprogramming

:

blueoval · 14-05-2009, 05:20 PM

Hmm ok, it seems like we have all be warned. I wonder what capa/sct have to say on the matter. Not that I want to dig a slinging match up, but you would think there would be a way around this.

xr8ute · 14-05-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micksxboxmods

How long is a piece of string...you cannot say mate. If it goes 't*ts Up' you will be able to recover it, it will just cost you dollars, that all.

Hmmm... I dont doubt that the integrity of flashable eeprom storage degrades the more you use it, but seriously?

Once a month for the life of the car (lets be extremely generous and say you do this for 50 years), so you have flashed the thing 600 times.

Is EEPROM really so fragile that this would be a genuine issue?

Why didn't Ford use a cheap USB key? The instructions that came with my USB key say that I can write to it up to 100,000 times?

Fireblade · 14-05-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

Hmm ok, it seems like we have all be warned. I wonder what capa/sct have to say on the matter. Not that I want to dig a slinging match up, but you would think there would be a way around this.

CAPA have nothing to do with flash tuners anymore from memory, Herrods is the new distributor for SCT in Australia so might be worth speaking to them about if your worried. As in anything with modified cars it can go bust on you at any time, and as the in saying is "you play, you pay".

Fireblade · 14-05-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xr8ute

Hmmm... I dont doubt that the integrity of flashable eeprom storage degrades the more you use it, but seriously?

Once a month for the life of the car (lets be extremely generous and say you do this for 50 years), so you have flashed the thing 600 times.

Please correct me if I am wrong (i have been wrong stacks of times before), but I have trouble believing an OEM would sell hundreds of millions of cars based on such fragile technology that this may be a genuine issue.

Or SCT would bring out a product that would adversely affect the life of the PCM.

JC · 14-05-2009, 05:43 PM

Muzz just flashed his and found the following:

"I think it made the stereo a little louder and it skips the wheels into 2nd?"

Micksxboxmods · 14-05-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

Hmm ok, it seems like we have all be warned. I wonder what capa/sct have to say on the matter. Not that I want to dig a slinging match up, but you would think there would be a way around this.

lmfao...didn't mean it that way.

Its got nothing to do with CAPA, the flash unit simply stores the tune, does it very well too.

Its the eeprom(where the tune is stored on the car) in the ECU that can give way, as they were never designed to be reflashed a multitude of times with the exception for fords field service actions(which should only be for example 10 times for the life of the car.)

Remember, you are altering your tune, not CAPA, not ford, which means you play you pay as was said before.

I don't want to create a slinging match between ppl that know and ppl that profess to know etc, tuning out of this thread....pardon the pun...LOL

View Poll Results: How often to you reflash your ecu with the flash tuner
once a month	2	12.50%
once every 2 months	0	0%
every now and then	3	18.75%
not often enough	6	37.50%
never OR I dont feel I need to	1	6.25%
I plan to now that you have reminded me	3	18.75%
I do it too often, somethings not right	1	6.25%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll