Modified 6's (ve,fg) - Page 2

kezzer · 14-05-2009, 01:06 PM

How so?

Cams would be around 3k
Gears,diffs,etc 6k
FI 10k
Exhaust 3k
Tune 1k

That leaves 7k over for brakes and other crap, I would be buying parts only, not paying people to install them. Will have more money to spend if I buy the car second hand to.

XR6_661 · 14-05-2009, 01:16 PM

Also, you state that you had a BA, but didn't do it up because it had problems? I'm guessing it was big stock...

If you are going to, as you say, build a sub 10 second dual forced induction I6 or V6...do you realise nearly all components would need to be replaced pretty much, thus negating any faults you had with standard components...you could've just kept the car you had.

You can get into the 11s fairly easily I'd imagine with the right gear and decent tune...but anything quicker requires dedication, money and know how.

The quickest falcons in the land are only pulling low 9s.

And it's not as easy as putting figures on parts...

You have to factor in things going wrong, which they will if you are pushing a car that hard especially with a setup that isnt really conventional.

Factor in tuning...LOTS of tuning.

Labour? somewhere down the track you will need a hand from an expert in the field.
Dual charged car is going to require a lot of custom parts...lots of moolah there, even just for parts.

I don't claim to know much about cars, so others feel free to correct me if I am wrong in anyway.

But I think you need to research your idea a little more.

XplosiveR6 · 14-05-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kezzer

Hey guys, sorry I didn't state my reasons for not wanting a xr6t or F6

I am planning on either a twin turbo setup or a dual application setup. A supercharger for low to mid range and a big turbo for top end. Thats why I don't care about stock figures, sure i know the V6 has 20% less torque, but that doesn't matter if a tune by itself will give it over 70nm of trq. I would like to know what the tunes on the fords stock would do? Also do the Fg's have quad or dual cams??

I don't street race, and this would purely be strip car, that I can still drive around in if I wanted. Would like to see it below 10 seconds if possible. Will also be taking it around a track, so limited understeer etc would be much better.

Anyway, thanks for all the help. And I wasn't making up those facts about the alloytec, ive seen a twin turbo going around in SA. CPR has revved the engine over 10k rpm with just a manifold replacment and cams. Cant go any higher coz its the limit of the software, its still being worked on. Has alot of push for alittle engine.

I am 80% certain I will be going manual. Will this affect performance of either car at all?

Also what will the next I6 motor be like? The next Holden V6 is already out in the states in the camaros, 225kw and 370nm trq. Supposedly they take mods really good as well. 31 rear wheel horsepower with only an intake and exhaust.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5565

And I can't find any info on the new I6.

Also I disagree Ve vs Ba, I just sold my Ba, biggest piece of crap I ever owned, I am a ford guy but the amount of problems I had with that car was ridiculous. Only thing that stopped me doing it up. Might be different for others, but this has put me off the Bas indeffinetly.

As far as I6 vs V6 without comparing these two cars what are the disadvantages of both and the advantages? Like there must be a reason mercedes switched to V6 and BMW still does I6.

Again, thanks for your time.

EDIT: made a few mistakes

Sorry, but your posts are so full of miss information its not funny, i think you need to learn the basics before you start reaching for the stars.

You need to have a good base engine to start off with, and the stock figures give a good indication of that. you say that it 'doesnt matter that for ford has more torque'. It actually does, if you do the exact same mods for the v6 and I6 the I6 will always have more torque and power, it simply has more potential due to the design and the displacement

And how could an I6 possibly have more then 2 cams? It seems you're just throwing around a bunch of numbers that you heard from a mate or read about on the internet.

kezzer · 14-05-2009, 01:27 PM

Looks guys, I don't know much about the FG, that's why I am asking on this forum. If I did I wouldn't have wasted my time here would I? I have a bit of money to throw around and I realize not all parts me or my mates will be able to do, but fitting an exhaust, brakes, cams etc is well within my grasp.

And yes I do realize that a higher base motor will have more potential, that doesn't concern me as much. Otherwise I would be looking at a V8. If you can get over 70nm of torque from an FG I6 with just a tune that would be very impressive. That's why I am asking. As stock tunes really do suck on most cars. The Aurion only has 330kw of torque yet it flogs the VE and FG in a straight line stock.

Thanks for all the help. So the I6 has more potential. Now what will the newer falcons have as far as KW and torque?

greenfoam · 14-05-2009, 01:35 PM

They are spinning cammed Alloytecs to 9000 rpm on stock bottom ends, Don't know about 10,000 but :S even 9000 makes me nervious. Seems a bit random to put a little motor in 2 ton car then spin it to 9000 rpm with peak torque at 6500

?. Just buy a $500 NA VL and put your 30 grand in that, will be for certain a reliable low 10 high 9 second car, daily drivable andyou will only need to rev it to 6500 max

vztrt · 14-05-2009, 01:49 PM

http://www.caradvice.com.au/10373/20...train-line-up/

specs on the fg engine.

with 98 ron you get 198kw & 409 Nm.

Wally · 14-05-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6_661

.............
You can get into the 11s fairly easily I'd imagine with the right gear and decent tune...but anything quicker requires dedication, money and know how.

The quickest falcons in the land are only pulling low 9s.

.............

To pull a low 11 the Falcon would probably need about 330kW at the wheels., so not so easy.

I'd be interested to know how many falcon sixes here are pulling 9s, because that's usually the territory of pro street with V8s.

Black F6 · 14-05-2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

To pull a low 11 the Falcon would probably need about 330kW at the wheels., so not so easy.

I'd be interested to know how many falcon sixes here are pulling 9s, because that's usually the territory of pro street with V8s.

I thought that there was only 2, and they just done it not long ago

XR6_661 · 14-05-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

To pull a low 11 the Falcon would probably need about 330kW at the wheels., so not so easy.

I'd be interested to know how many falcon sixes here are pulling 9s, because that's usually the territory of pro street with V8s.

I said fairly easily...You can get 330rwkw no worries in an XR6t with just bolt ons and a tune. Hell, I know of an XR6t that has 580hp+ at the bags, with bolt ons and tuned...completely unopened, std turbo & std driveline.

As for 9 second XRs: http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11257248

XR6_661 · 14-05-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFXRScott

I thought that there was only 2, and they just done it not long ago

There was a white one ages ago I thought....It's for sale at the moment.

Road_Warrior · 14-05-2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFXRScott

I thought that there was only 2, and they just done it not long ago

I seem to recall seeing pics posted of a yellow one, but that thing was running a Powerglide and was absolutely bombed off it's tits.

Wally · 14-05-2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6_661

I said fairly easily...You can get 330rwkw no worries in an XR6t with just bolt ons and a tune. Hell, I know of an XR6t that has 580hp+ at the bags, with bolt ons and tuned...completely unopened, std turbo & std driveline.

As for 9 second XRs: http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11257248

They are impressive times. Keep 'em coming.

Paddyboy · 14-05-2009, 02:13 PM

I can see where you're aiming Kezzer and there's nothing wrong with what you want, but I dont think you fully realise how big a build like this is going to be, even before you talk about money. First of all you dont know a hell of a lot, so you will be relying totally on the builders of the car, and it seems you are a little disallusioned with having a 9 second street car for a budget of 30 grand. Sorry to burst your bubble or excitement and im not putting you down, but its not realistic, I'd say aim for 11's for a nice streetable car, but its a huge deal to get down to 9's. Going from 13's to 11's isnt a huge exercise for a 2 second difference, but from 11's to 9's is a whole other kettle of fish. You're talking whole new motor built up with all internals and everything done, then gearbox, diff, suspension, and the list goes on.

To go to the beginning, if you throw away you're idea of getting 9's and make it more realistc then i'd definetly say the i6 is the better motor as proved by many, these motors are awesome for FI especially turbo. so yeh get an FG XR6 (looks better as well) and start from there. Maybe even see if you can get onto some blokes out there who have 10-11 second streeters and whats involved with the build. There's probably some on these forums you could try get onto.

kezzer · 15-05-2009, 08:30 AM

Cheers for the help mate.

11 seconds in either car is very do-able. I might wait for the updated falcon and the new VF to come out next year.

225kw and 375nm of torque or 198kw and 409nm of torque... hmmm a hard one lol.

Stroking either of them is on the cards anyway. And has anyone done a tune on their FG? What figure increase did you get??

I will still aim for 9's but i would be happy with 11's.

Thanks for the help guys.

UNR8D · 15-05-2009, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kezzer

How so?

Cams would be around 3k
Gears,diffs,etc 6k
FI 10k
Exhaust 3k
Tune 1k

That leaves 7k over for brakes and other crap, I would be buying parts only, not paying people to install them. Will have more money to spend if I buy the car second hand to.

your forgetting full engine rebuild on either car as the ammount of FI you want to shove down its neck to get to where you want wont cope on stock internals, nor will ur clutch/trans/driveshaft/suspention and so you can put this power down and a set of MT streetslicks maybe.... *and thats just the major components* if your replacing all that by yourself in your shed then ill eat my hat.

I know what your aim/goal is and thats great but not acheaveable on that budget, your theory is also flawed about waiting for new commodore/falcon, firstly you cant stroke the falcon anymore than 4.0L, 3.6 i believe you can but im not sure on the power gains and being full alloy block im not sure how much you can stroke it, regarding the rattletec there have been a couple of FI applications that have killed the rods in them up this way so i believe its an even bigger importance for stronger internals.

trying to do what your doing on DI *direct injection* which will be on the new commo will be a trial/error experience due to the setup, currently to get more air/fuel its FI + injectors, might be a while before the DI aftermarket injectors are sorted for HO applications.

going newer and building a 11/9 second streeter wont depend on what STOCK figures they put out, you throw enough an a buick and it will run 9's ditto for XR6T but they are throwing alot more than 30 at the project and starting with a much cheeper/proven/lighter base.

Swordsman88 · 15-05-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

http://www.caradvice.com.au/10373/20...train-line-up/

specs on the fg engine.

with 98 ron you get 198kw & 409 Nm.

Actually it makes that on 95 RON. Actuall numbers on 98 are not quoted, but i heard rumours/guestimates going around when it launched that it is as much as 205/418 nm. Which is alot of torque for a production engine of 4.0L capacitiy without DI. A BMW M3 makes 400nm from 4 L, its a V8 with the latest tech (but not DI??) and that is on 95 ROn i think. In effect the I6 outgrunts any other atmo production engine around per litre - bar the latest run of DI powerplants.

Pretty impressive for a 'dinosoaur'.

As for the OP, i think maybe a bit more knowledge about the I6 and FG is needed before making any reall decision. Not that i know diddly about this sort of thing but for what it is worth i don't see how starting with an inferior car helps you much. Which is exactly what the VE (in alloytec form) is. Even with the caddy DI engine i don't think it would be any better off than the I6 in the FG - and you'd have to buy the DI engine (or wait till holden finally puts it in the VE...if ever)

vztrt · 15-05-2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Actually it makes that on 95 RON. Actuall numbers on 98 are not quoted, but i heard rumours/guestimates going around when it launched that it is as much as 205/418 nm. Which is alot of torque for a production engine of 4.0L capacitiy without DI. A BMW M3 makes 400nm from 4 L, its a V8 with the latest tech (but not DI??) and that is on 95 ROn i think. In effect the I6 outgrunts any other atmo production engine around per litre - bar the latest run of DI powerplants.

Pretty impressive for a 'dinosoaur'.

Whoops your right, thanks.

There's nothing 'dinosaur' about the I6, From the AU to BA the media were claiming a 20 year jump(I know your not calling it a dino BTW). Not bad for an engine that only has a small market, would love to see what they could do with it if it was to become a worldwide engine.

Road_Warrior · 15-05-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Whoops your right, thanks.

There's nothing 'dinosaur' about the I6, From the AU to BA the media were claiming a 20 year jump(I know your not calling it a dino BTW). Not bad for an engine that only has a small market, would love to see what they could do with it if it was to become a worldwide engine.

Aah yes, the 'twenty year leap' was quoted by Autospeed I think it was.

Not sure whether DI is really necessary on the I6 but I'd love to see it's performance with a twin throttle body setup.

Iggypoppin' · 15-05-2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kezzer

Looks guys, I don't know much about the FG, that's why I am asking on this forum. If I did I wouldn't have wasted my time here would I? I have a bit of money to throw around and I realize not all parts me or my mates will be able to do, but fitting an exhaust, brakes, cams etc is well within my grasp.

And yes I do realize that a higher base motor will have more potential, that doesn't concern me as much. Otherwise I would be looking at a V8. If you can get over 70nm of torque from an FG I6 with just a tune that would be very impressive. That's why I am asking. As stock tunes really do suck on most cars. The Aurion only has 330kw of torque yet it flogs the VE and FG in a straight line stock.

Thanks for all the help. So the I6 has more potential. Now what will the newer falcons have as far as KW and torque?

Hmm... 330kw of torque?? I think you mean nm. And aurions don't beat anything in a straight line.. Where'd you hear that?

5tumpy · 15-05-2009, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kezzer

How so?

Cams would be around 3k
Gears,diffs,etc 6k
FI 10k
Exhaust 3k
Tune 1k

That leaves 7k over for brakes and other crap, I would be buying parts only, not paying people to install them. Will have more money to spend if I buy the car second hand to.

LOL... Where's the budget for the full engine rebuild that you'll need to run the engine that you've turbo'd AND supercharged? Or the budget for the roll cage that you'll have to install once you get into the 10's on the strip. Your budget for your tune is unrealistic, a custom tune for what you're describing will be mega bucks mate.

Those figures you've quoted, for most of them, will cover the labour alone, as there is no way you and your mates are going to be able to does all this work in your back yards, there will need to be extensive r & d undertaken, and that's bloody expensive in itself...

Out of interest, how old are you mate? No offence, but you seem like a kid with big dreams but not a lot of common sense...

vztrt · 15-05-2009, 01:01 PM

Another thing to look at would be the compression ratio's of both engines.

I know blue power only wanna put S/C on the 290 Boss as they feel the other engines would be unreliable. Also having a read around the Alloytec doesn't like High Psi in their engines. So there would be big bucks in getting that fixes.

So if we take a look
the 195 a/t is 10.2:1
the N/A I6 is 8.8:1
the I6T is 8.47:1 (lower then the barra motors)

So again the I6 would be the better base motor.

I'm not 100% positive on this so if I'm wrong then cool. But if I am could someone explain to me cause I would like to know.

Torquen · 15-05-2009, 04:34 PM

wow, interesting read.
From what i can gather. OP has cash to buy FG/VE N/A 6 Cylinder. Thinks spending 30K on either one will yield a 9 second car

:
Ok, firstly WTF wouldnt you just buy a V8 or XR6T if you want a really fast car capable of doing 9's??
Second, 30K thrown into a slow/lazy/heavy N/A 6... IS NOT GOING TO = A 9 SECOND CAR! simple. Im not saying it's not possible, just that it's not possible with a 30K budget! Try 60-70K and you may have a chance.
Say you buy a BA XR6T for 18K, spend 30K on that and you may just have a 9's second car.
Sorry this just seems ludacris!

XR6_190 · 15-05-2009, 09:26 PM

oh jeez, here we go again, another hypothetical.

XR6_190 · 15-05-2009, 09:28 PM

It may be a silly question, but if you could easily get a 9 second 6 cylinder Falcodore, for an outlay of 30k, wouldn't everybody be doing it? I know I would have. You will need to do a lot more research than just asking a few questions on the internet. I don't mean to put you down, and it's a fact that I don't know an awful lot about mechanical stuff, but I do know that building a 9 second car is very expensive, and making a reliable, and street legal one costs even more.

As for that 225kw V6 getting put into the Commodore, don't be waiting for that, it's not likely to even be on the cards anytime soon, Holden would loose to many fleet sales to even bother with a base engine that makes that much power. I also like the fact that the best GM can get out of a 6, even with the newest tech, is about 375Nm.

erima · 15-05-2009, 10:29 PM

MR KEZZER Doesn,t Know What He's Talking About... For Sure

tapeworm · 15-05-2009, 11:12 PM

I hope Ford bring out direct injection on the OZ i6, it would really start to be pulling some epic figures for an N/A six.

ehast13 · 16-05-2009, 11:05 AM

It all seems a bit confusing to me.

If you want a 9 second car, buy an xd and spent 30k on a 9inch, tricked auto and a 351 0r 460

If you want a circuit car, by a clubman.

If u want to rev it out, buy a motorbike or a honda or a rotary.

I can offer you a bit of advice but you have to tell us what is going on. Are you for real, or just rubbing one out over a street machine magazine?

Your info on the VF seems a bit iffy. u owned a ba but didn't know how many cams the fg has?

I would like a car that looks like an xw gt, handles like an m3, brakes like porsche, drinks like a corolla, is as safe as a volvo and as comfortable as a mercedes.

I have a budget of $2.50.

UNR8D · 16-05-2009, 12:05 PM

^^ toyota aurion?

GTP owner · 16-05-2009, 06:44 PM

Kezzer I think you need to actually get into the pits at some drag meets and actually go out and have a chat with the guys running quicker sixes and ask questions. You will get much the same answers as here. You are dreaming if you think you can get 9s out of a 6 for 30grand. Given the questions you are asking, i would also suggest buying an xr6t with some mods already. Learn how to drive a fast car first, and practice at some drag meetings.
Other things - the merc went v6 for space reasons - it is more compact and allows for a bigger passenger compartment as well as crash protection. The downside is the vibration and harshness inherent in the v6 configuration. that is why bmw sticks with the straight 6.
And an aurion will NOT flog a similar sage falcon or commodore 6. Someone has been telling you porkies.

ehast13 · 18-05-2009, 10:00 AM

Just to throw a spanner in the works. I have seen Aurions do high 14's off the showroom floor. Even wheels mag got a 14.8 out of one when they compared it to commie and falcon (falcon did a low 15).

A stock aurion is a competent performer. But a bit like a chrylser centura (OH GOD! A CORNER! BUT I WANTED TO ACCELERATE AND STEER! OH GOD, WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!!!!!!)