Torque.... Turbo Terry Vs Turbo Diesel - Page 2

Brazen · 30-05-2010, 12:29 PM

I knew a bloke who is based in Adelaide and does building work in metro and country areas and even in rural NSW and VIC.

Back in 1998 he traded in his 4.5l Landcruiser diesel on a XH Falcon ute (thanks to a recommendation from me), purely due to comfort issues as his back was being pummelled on long distance drives in the Toyota. Well to say he thinks the Falcon is a better tow car is an understatement, he can overtakes to 140 clicks towing two tonne on the back no problem at all (and this is on LPG), whereas his Landcruiser would often struggle to maintain the speed limit when towing. His economy figures with the Falcon is much better on LPG than the Landcruiser too (was saving about 150 bucks a month with the Falcon).

Since then a couple of new Falcon utes have joined it - including a FG eGas, but his original XH is still daily used by his apprentices and now has over 300,000km and is still going strong.

I even know how well my Fairmont tows a horse float, so a turbo Territory would be a fantastic tow car. Its a bit of a **** in this country over diesels being used as tow cars, the best tow car I have ever driven was a AU fairlane V8 on gas, felt fantastic. But hey I wouldnt mind the new gen 6.7litre diesel in the F350 in the other thread...!

PHATXR8 · 30-05-2010, 12:36 PM

A 4.2L turbo diesel Nissan wouldn't pull your brother off your sister. A Turbo Territory will eat a 4.2TD alive.

I know this for a fact because my wife has a Turbo Terri and my brother owns a 4.2TD Nissan which he often pulls horse floats with...it is a slug - they aren't even EFI.

A multi valve 4.2TD EFI multi valve Landcruiser is a totally different kettle of fish, as are the V8 4.5L TD Landcruisers in another league of their own.

**DJR-351** · 30-05-2010, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Back in 1998 he traded in his 4.5l Landcruiser diesel.....

.....you sure about that?? must be a typo eh....??

Brazen · 30-05-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJR-351

.....you sure about that?? must be a typo eh....??

Yeah it was the 4.2, the series before the longer cab one.

**ebxr8240** · 30-05-2010, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Yeah it was the 4.2, the series before the longer cab one.

Yes its an OLD diesel... But its still going...
I agree the N/A diesels are slugs with pulling decent load..

fairBA · 31-05-2010, 02:31 PM

Your comparing speed of a Turbo Petrol to a Deseil turbo??

Your comparing a Patrol to a Terry?? (excuse me while I ponder the best place to start with this)

By the way - the patrol pulls 3.5t and thats the gov limit not the cars - the Terry - 2.3t.
Think you'll find the strenght of the terry gearbox can't do too much with 254kw with a bit of weight behind it - or the brakes to stop it.

.

chevypower · 31-05-2010, 02:46 PM

Here's more info on another Ford diesel engine coming out. http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/28...x-f150-engine/
4.4L V8, CGI block, 230kw/700Nm - made for Range Rover, hopefully it will be used by Ford internally also.

jimmyxr6t04 · 31-05-2010, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fairBA

Your comparing speed of a Turbo Petrol to a Deseil turbo??

Your comparing a Patrol to a Terry?? (excuse me while I ponder the best place to start with this)

By the way - the patrol pulls 3.5t and thats the gov limit not the cars - the Terry - 2.3t.
Think you'll find the strenght of the terry gearbox can't do too much with 254kw with a bit of weight behind it - or the brakes to stop it.

.

I know that a turbo diesel will out tow a TT when there is a big load behind it. But that wasn't what my mate was arguing. His simple statement was that with a tonne of sand his turbo diesel would reach the top of a hill quicker then the TT towing the same load. I disagreed. The turbo diesel would do it more fuel efficiently perhaps, but this wasn't a variable.

My simple argument to him was this; With loads being equal, and torque being almost equal (TT prob has more, i have no idea what his makes), then the extra power of the TT will give it the advantage. Not to mention the short rev range of a turbo diesel, meaning he'll be in 3rd gear whilst i might still be pulling away in 2nd.

Personally i would never compare a turbo diesel patrol to a TT, it is an unfair comparison, but my mates won't stop with the banter about the torque of a diesel... I honestly don't think he understands how much torque a TT makes, i might need to take him for a drive.

I know that a turbo diesel with the right motor combination will make heaps of torque and power (eg: Audi Q7 with the twin turbo V12, 1000Nm and 360-370kw or so, and claimed ~12L/100km), now that thing would flog most things up a hill, towing a tonne or not!

Brazen · 31-05-2010, 05:50 PM

Nissan Patrol has 380Nm of torque (less than a stock Falcon XT), but it would be low down in the rev range making it usable.

fairBA · 31-05-2010, 05:54 PM

This a completetly useless test that proves nothing. The Patrol is worlds above the Terry. Torque is not a measure of speed and Kws are not a measure of towing ability.

Matty4 · 31-05-2010, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fairBA

This a completetly useless test that proves nothing. The Patrol is worlds above the Terry. Torque is not a measure of speed and Kws are not a measure of towing ability.

I've got a mate with a 4.2 TD Patrol and it's a slug, he's just fitted a 3" exhaust to it to make it even slightly more driveable.
At least with my TTG I can comfortably accelerate to overtake towing either my 2.2T caravan or my 2.1T wakeboat, whereas he certainly can't.

As an on-road tow vehicle, without regard for fuel consumption, the Terri wins hands down.

The current issue of "Caravan and Motorhome" has a full test of several tow vehicles, including a Patrol (TD)and a Terri (NA). I don't have the full article but a clip from one test. 0 - 80km/h, Patrol did it in 24.07s (I suspect 3.0l TD, but maybe not. The 4.2 would be slightly quicker), whilst the Terri did it in 11.45s (this was listed as the quickest of all vehicles tested, a TT would be even quicker.

Will try to get my hands on the whole article

Matty

Maggot · 31-05-2010, 07:04 PM

Remember the OP is comparing territories with Patrol diesels in particular.. and it seems that everyone who has 'heard that diesels are OK' seems to be backing the patrol.. anyone that has owned a patrol diesel knows better.

The 3L is a joke.. nissan have been trying to get it right for years and have failed (IMO).. now they are putting a Renault engine in them to try and get them right. and at the same time making them 300kg heavier.

I have owned a couple of patrols, we only get them for the amount room and rear airconditioning.

The engine is uselss uphill or into the wind.. towing or otherwise.

Towing a one ton trailer we nearly didn't make it up to Jindabyne (not over the mountains but from VIC side) due to overheating (on a freezing cold day).

When you go up a hill, you have to get keep the revs under 3000rpm to avoid overheating,, this means 2nd gear and 40kmph, they wont hold in 3rd.

Even while not towing.. we had to get 2nd gear getting up to mt baw baw (2nd gear!!), only 3 or 4 degrees that day.. and it started to get hot.

Useless engines.. maybe the french engine will fix the issues but now that they are 2800 odd kilos I don't think so.

Economy. the truth is they get about 11L/100 not towing and cruising along at 100kmph. Towing they get anywhere from 14 up to 20 L/100, depending upon the wind.

Both of our patrols have been new, one manual and one auto.

MexicanBatman · 31-05-2010, 08:12 PM

i remember being in a mates lil econobox on the way to greendale for some camping and moto riding

we were flat out up the western highway when his bro in law in the el/ef wagon packed full of camping gear for 8 people and 4 dirtbikes on the trailer (drz400 wr450 xr650 and my xr250 :( LOL @ me) flew past us like we were standing still! crappy econo box couldnt catch it up the pentland hills!!

sure it wasnt towing 3ton but hey, thats how i need to tow.... i dont have a tow bar but i think the g6e would be better than a 3L patrol for anything up to 2 ton.... after much hype i did 1500km in an auto 3.0L td patrol and the only positive thing i could say about it...... it used less fuel than i expected i averaged 12L/100km and it did standstills!

ran a fair amount of boost from memory (plugged in obdII scanner) 12-14psi i believe

but very slow on take off, i was convinced they weren't slow... but i was wrong
(fast as in 4wd truck, not passenger car)

Matty4 · 31-05-2010, 08:13 PM

Looking at the fuel consumption figures on the test provides some interesting reading.
The Patrol consumed 20.98l/100km (diesel) whilst the Terri consumed 21.06l/100km (petrol). They were obviously towing the same van along the same route.

Hate to have bought that diesel Patrol for the economy!!!!

mik · 31-05-2010, 08:17 PM

time for a funny towing film clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05ru1l2gN88

jimmyxr6t04 · 31-05-2010, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fairBA

This a completetly useless test that proves nothing. The Patrol is worlds above the Terry. Torque is not a measure of speed and Kws are not a measure of towing ability.

But focus on the original reason for the posting. Will a 4.2L TD towing a tonne of sand be quicker up a hill (twisty or straight) then a TT towing the same? No other factors need to be considered... Torque is an influence of acceleration, so in a sense it is a measure of speed. KWs influence acceleration at higher speeds...

My mates continued banter is about the 'torque' of a 4.2L TD 4X4... A TT has more torque, and more power... If we were talking dirt roads, rough terrain then obviously the TD patrol is the winner.

Romulus · 31-05-2010, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmyxr6t04

Just to clarify, i wouldn't buy a TT as a dedicated tow car... If i needed to tow something i would have bought a turbo diesel for the fuel economy.

The question just arrises because my mates tow boats. I really don't know how much power the turbo diesel has, it's never been put on a dyno.

I 100% understand that a turbo diesel is awesome for towing, but i think the TT would be equal to the task if not better. The only downside to the TT is the fuel consumption, which isn't a factor in this particular argument.

Initially my mate said a turbo diesel would tow a tonne of sand up a hill quicker then a TT, when i explained the power/torque of the TT he slightly retracted his comments, but then said the turbo diesel is still better for towing.

I'm trying to explain that a TT should be equal too, if not better due to the wide torque band and peak horsepower. I semi-agree that a turbo diesel would probably pull off the line quicker (initially) until they had to change to 2nd gear at about 4000rpm...

Remember a TT makes peak torque from 2000rpm so surely a TT will pull stuff up a hill with just as much ease as a turbo diesel?

All i'm trying to do is prove that a TT is as good at towing, if not better... Again, putting fuel economy aside... Overtaking would easier, acceleration would be better.

Edit - I'd almost go as far to say that a TT with a tonne of sand would still go close to beating a turbo diesel up a hill with no sand.

I've traded my old Terri Turbo Ghia for a NT Pajero GLS Turbo diesel auto, so I think I have a little authority about this subject ;)

No doubt the TT is quicker than my Paj, but that's about the extent of the accolades for the Terri, period. My experience of both tells me the Paj goes in 2wd where the useless AWD system in Terri simply bogs it down and bellies it. In sand that is. I'd comfortably to a load (up to 3T in the Paj) long distances (including steep hills) in the Paj over the TT, and use less fuel too. On a good day my TTG averaged 14-15l/100km, the Paj averages mid 11's around town.

Most modern common rail turbo diesel engines make good power, torque and return excellent fuel economy. There's a reason why Ford are putting a V6 TDI in the Territory

jimmyxr6t04 · 31-05-2010, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT Falcon

I've traded my old Terri Turbo Ghia for a NT Pajero GLS Turbo diesel auto, so I think I have a little authority about this subject ;)

No doubt the TT is quicker than my Paj, but that's about the extent of the accolades for the Terri when it comes to towing and off-roading. My experience of both tells me the Paj goes in 2wd where the useless AWD system in Terri simply bogs it down and bellies it. In sand that is. I'd comfortably to a load (up to 3T in the Paj) long distances (including steep hills) in the Paj over the TT, and use less fuel too. On a good day my TTG averaged 14-15l/100km, the Paj averages mid 11's around town.

Most modern common rail turbo diesel engines make good power, torque and return excellent fuel economy. There's a reason why Ford are putting a V6 TDI in the Territory

Thanks for the info mate! I have no misconceptions about the TTs ability as an offroad vehicle, infact, i'll never take it anywhere near off road! And i agree 100% with your comments RE modern diesels and their ability...

You're in a position to make an accurate comparison, so; Would your TTG tow a tonne of sand up a hill quicker then your Pajero lol...

I understand that turbo diesels are great cars these days! But the car in question is from the early 90s...

Either way, i didn't buy the wife TT to tow or go off road. I bought it because i used to own an XR6T with 300rwkw, and i'm addicted to the easy power of the 6T motor!

mik · 31-05-2010, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT Falcon

I've traded my old Terri Turbo Ghia for a NT Pajero GLS Turbo diesel auto, so I think I have a little authority about this subject ;)

No doubt the TT is quicker than my Paj, but that's about the extent of the accolades for the Terri, period. My experience of both tells me the Paj goes in 2wd where the useless AWD system in Terri simply bogs it down and bellies it. In sand that is. I'd comfortably to a load (up to 3T in the Paj) long distances (including steep hills) in the Paj over the TT, and use less fuel too. On a good day my TTG averaged 14-15l/100km, the Paj averages mid 11's around town.

Most modern common rail turbo diesel engines make good power, torque and return excellent fuel economy. There's a reason why Ford are putting a V6 TDI in the Territory

what are differences in your old territory transmission compared to the pajero? ie how many gears 4/6 transfer case hi lo? diff gearing between the two vehicles?

Romulus · 31-05-2010, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmyxr6t04

Thanks for the info mate! I have no misconceptions about the TTs ability as an offroad vehicle, infact, i'll never take it anywhere near off road! And i agree 100% with your comments RE modern diesels and their ability...

You're in a position to make an accurate comparison, so; Would your TTG tow a tonne of sand up a hill quicker then your Pajero lol...

I understand that turbo diesels are great cars these days! But the car in question is from the early 90s...

Either way, i didn't buy the wife TT to tow or go off road. I bought it because i used to own an XR6T with 300rwkw, and i'm addicted to the easy power of the 6T motor!

Depends on what kind of hill hahah.....a bitumen hill, yep the TTG would do it quicker. A sandy, rocky or slippery hill - nope. Not a hope in hell. As I discovered the TTG's AWD system is a poor attempt at an AWD system. It's too reliant on electronics that are very poorly calibrated to boot. The MATT system in my Paj is brilliant on the other hand. I ordered mine with the factory rear diff lock. I don't know why I bothered as the MATT system does such a great job about the only thing the rear diff lock is good for is churning up grass on tight turns.

Back to the orginal question, yes, I do believe the TT would tow the load quicker than the Pootrol. The older diesel engines are truly like truck engines; slow to rev, noisy, smokey and low in power and torque.

Romulus · 31-05-2010, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mik

what are differences in your old territory transmission compared to the pajero? ie how many gears 4/6 transfer case hi lo? diff gearing between the two vehicles?

My TTG had the 6 speed ZF auto. My GLS has the new Aisin 5 speed automatic. The engine in it is the 'upgraded' 3.2DI-D engine; 147kw and 441nm output.

Transfer case ratio high:low 1:1.9, the Territory does not have a high/low transfer case. Infact, it doesn't even have a lockable transfer case!
Diff ratio in the Paj is 3.917:1 versus 3.46:1 in the TT. I've added taller tyres (275/75/17 compared to factory 265/65/17) giving it around 10% taller gearing.

GTWHOA · 31-05-2010, 10:14 PM

Just thought i'd add my 3.0T patrol can do 0-100 in 22.4 seconds and 400m in about 23 seconds just after it hits 100, but it does weigh 3000kg.

**ebxr8240** · 31-05-2010, 11:07 PM

Any one who races a Terri up a hill with a ton of sand wants his head read !!!
It'll do it.. But chances are it could kill it also !!!
I guess this going to done in a company car ???
Long wheel base version at that !!

Brazen · 31-05-2010, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Any one who races a Terri up a hill with a ton of sand wants his head read !!!
It'll do it.. But chances are it could kill it also !!!
I guess this going to done in a company car ???
Long wheel base version at that !!

My old 260,000km AU charges up hills towing 50% more than that. I bet you wouldnt even feel a tonne in a Territory Turbo.

mik · 31-05-2010, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT Falcon

My TTG had the 6 speed ZF auto. My GLS has the new Aisin 5 speed automatic. The engine in it is the 'upgraded' 3.2DI-D engine; 147kw and 441nm output.

Transfer case ratio high:low 1:1.9, the Territory does not have a high/low transfer case. Infact, it doesn't even have a lockable transfer case!
Diff ratio in the Paj is 3.917:1 versus 3.46:1 in the TT. I've added taller tyres (275/75/17 compared to factory 265/65/17) giving it around 10% taller gearing.

thanks mate.

Romulus · 31-05-2010, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTD54L

Just thought i'd add my 3.0T patrol can do 0-100 in 22.4 seconds and 400m in about 23 seconds just after it hits 100, but it does weigh 3000kg.

Going off topic slightly, it's interesting you should mention it's performance. I used a program called Dynolicious on my Iphone to record the performance of my Paj. It's not certified as accurate so I won't take the results as gospel but I recorded 0-60mph in 11.01 seconds and 1/4 mile in 17.96 seconds @ 76.8mph. For the record I have also installed a TDC-Technology chip

For a 2.5t vehicle the damn thing will run out to 200km/h, not that I'd ever do it again!

jimmyxr6t04 · 01-06-2010, 08:25 PM

GT falcon - thanks for the info, and yep, of course the TT will struggle on any other surface apart from a normal road! I've recently got an app for my N97, racechrono... Pretty keen to see my 0-100km/h time now that i've had a tune and injectors done!

EBXR8240 - I never said i was going to race my TT up a hill with a tonne of sand. It's a hypothetical that my mate brought up. A bit of banter and sledging later, he said his 4.2L TD would beat my TT up a hill towing a tonne of sand... Interestingly, his patrol is a short wheel base... Why do you mention the long wheel base? Is it better? Not that we'll ever race! To be honest, i don't think we really care too much, it's the other mates that stir us up after a couple of beers lol...

I'm more interested to know from people who have owned various types of cars and also other peoples theories.

**ebxr8240** · 02-06-2010, 12:03 AM

Aha no the Terri would be stretched ...Totally different body.. The 4wd truck is built for it...

OZQUAD44 · 02-06-2010, 12:32 AM

Terri would blitz it.

Modern Diesels are awsome for towing, but a TT isn't going to even raise a sweat in that senario.

My N/A Terri overtakes in 110 zones towing about 1500kg, and a TT would smash my N/A Tezza.

I have been driving a new diesel T/D Hilux of late, and rate the Lux as a better tow rig than the N/A tezza, but the the Tezza is quicker even dragging a load.

mcnews · 18-06-2010, 11:34 AM

What would be good is if the Turbo Territory got the FG spec turbo engine rather than the BF unit. The difference is really quite massive. If they had the FG donk I would have bought a Turbo Territory, but as they still have the old design I didn't worry about it.