Muscle: Is it Carburetted, or Fuel Injected?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by T3man

Well it currently has a 250 so it ain't no muscle car by any stretch. My 351C on straight LPG can embarass many a so-called muscle car. WTF has the type of fuel got to do with it?

As for autos ... many had 3 speed autos back in the day - did that make them less of a muscle car? A 6 speed has to be a great idea in an old muscle car I'd reckon. I might put one in the P6 one day.

Well it is strange how a XR GT is a muscle car but a R32 skyline isn't.
I am fairly confident that there are a number of FWD 4cylinders that can embarrass your 351C, does that make them muscle cars?

"Muscle car" is about the technology of the "muscle car era" during which LPG fuel injection was not available on falcons.

Does ripping the V8 out of a phase 3 GTHO and fitting a twin turbo V6 out of a Nissan GTR make go better? Of course it does.

Is it still a muscle car? About as much of a muscle car as a LPG conversion.

But all this is moot anyway, Willo is a red P plater so it just can't legally be done....

[xy500]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well it is strange how a XR GT is a muscle car but a R32 skyline isn't.
I am fairly confident that there are a number of FWD 4cylinders that can embarrass your 351C, does that make them muscle cars?

"Muscle car" is about the technology of the "muscle car era" during which LPG fuel injection was not available on falcons.

Does ripping the V8 out of a phase 3 GTHO and fitting a twin turbo V6 out of a Nissan GTR make go better? Of course it does.

Is it still a muscle car? About as much of a muscle car as a LPG conversion.

But all this is moot anyway, Willo is a red P plater so it just can't legally be done....

have you had enough trolling yet?
I don't know how you even found this thread flappist.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by xy500

have you had enough trolling yet?
I don't know how you even found this thread flappist.

What you don't know something?

How unusual.......

[cs123]

Originally Posted by XCwillo

Not a clue, never had to check up on those rules but now I know, thanks!
... What exactly is ADR27a?

ADR 27a is
Charcoal canister
PCV
Exhaust Gas Re-circulation (EGR)

All doable IMO on your car. Chances are with a Holley and headers you have already removed the EGR pipe now (runs from exhaust to intake manifold), so you would be illegal now

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by cs123

ADR 27a is
Charcoal canister
PCV
Exhaust Gas Re-circulation (EGR)

All doable IMO on your car. Chances are with a Holley and headers you have already removed the EGR pipe now (runs from exhaust to intake manifold), so you would be illegal now

Its those things and measured emmisions levels.... You can have all those things hooked up but if the car is modified and doesnt meet the emmisions requirements it can still be defected.

[T3man]

Or you can have them not hooked up and still meet the emission levels and everything's sweet.

[hendoau99]

i'll go straight to the point, muscle car IMHO has to be carburettored. no ifs or buts. unless its a daily, then EFI is more reliable, economical etc...

[Streets]

Good ol ADR27a. Can someone explain to me how engines that have less power and burn more fuel to do the same amount of work as an unrestricted engine are supposed to reduce emissions? A round of applause please for the government.

[montyv8]

this thread makes me lol. EFI isn't muscle! LPG can't be on muscle cars!

Glad I didn't ask for opinions on here before i built my car



Wait! is that?! EFI and a turbo?! omfg.

[montyv8]

I forgot to add:

"four door cars can't be muscle cars?!"

[Streets]

I once got told that my 351 XD was not a muscle car because it wasn't old enough.

[4Vman]

Well technically to be classed as a "musclecar" it should atleast have been produced during the "musclecar era"..... (widely acepted as approx 1967-1976)..
Atleast use the "steel bumper" rule...

I wont even dare open the "what's a Factory musclecar" can of worms.... LOL

[302 XC]

1978 XCs have steel bumpers
Doesnt the 1983 VH crumpledore have steel bumpers ???
Therell always be different termanologies regarding whats "Muscle" or not

At the end of the day willo,
Youll spend a motsa on triple webers (probably cost more than a 351 clevo)

So ya mite as well sit it out save ya money and go the clevo
All legal,minimal hassles
And best of all ,the V8 rumble

[XCwillo]

Originally Posted by cs123

ADR 27a is
Charcoal canister
PCV
Exhaust Gas Re-circulation (EGR)

All doable IMO on your car. Chances are with a Holley and headers you have already removed the EGR pipe now (runs from exhaust to intake manifold), so you would be illegal now

I dont have the exhaust re circulation pipe because that was the biggest useless piece of balls I've ever come across in my life. I have Extractors now and don't have it on, old mate police officer didnt give me any flak for it because the extractors dont have the port and the inlet manifold was after market so it didnt have the mount holes for it.

I have the rest, so I don't see how having tripple webs would be illegal, even tho it does breach the EGR rules, which have already proved to me that they most likely arent even something to bother over by the police.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by XCwillo

I dont have the exhaust re circulation pipe because that was the biggest useless piece of balls I've ever come across in my life. I have Extractors now and don't have it on, old mate police officer didnt give me any flak for it because the extractors dont have the port and the inlet manifold was after market so it didnt have the mount holes for it.

I have the rest, so I don't see how having tripple webs would be illegal, even tho it does breach the EGR rules, which have already proved to me that they most likely arent even something to bother over by the police.

Just because you don't see it does not mean it is not so.

It is not as if you are low profile around the bay in your ute either.

Do not think police are stupid or lazy. If you get rolled for whatever reason your car is going to get "inspected". It is a very high profile colour, has many very obvious mods and has a big red target, I mean P plate, attached to the front and back.

All XCs must comply with ADR27a which was the first of the pollution rules, I know, I bought one new and had to put up with the lack of performance and fuel guzzling.
If you fit the webbers you will not comply and WILL draw the crabs.
If you were 40 odd years old and an "average person" you might get away with it.
You are NOT and once you get a reputation as an "offender" you will find you seem to be constantly being intercepted.

Traffic DO have a "hoon" list and DO know who is who in the zoo.

Try not to be put in the monkey cage.......

[T3man]

No, ADR 27a was not the first of the "pollution" rules. But certainly it was the first to have a massive impact on engine behaviour/performance.

And 40 is not odd.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

Just because you don't see it does not mean it is not so.

It is not as if you are low profile around the bay in your ute either.

Do not think police are stupid or lazy. If you get rolled for whatever reason your car is going to get "inspected". It is a very high profile colour, has many very obvious mods and has a big red target, I mean P plate, attached to the front and back.

All XCs must comply with ADR27a which was the first of the pollution rules, I know, I bought one new and had to put up with the lack of performance and fuel guzzling.
.

I got my 5.8 XD Fairmont when she was 3 years old.
A lot of that bad fuel economy was because Thermoquad carby and ignition timing
were usually nowhere near correct to Ford specs and cam was prety ordinary unit.
I took the time to get all the settings right on carb and ignition and then
installed the US pollution cobra jet cam and wow, what a difference....

even dual exhausts on XDs were frowned upon back in the early 1980s
and the transport cops used to sing like parrots on the regulation:
"No person may change or alter a vehicle from its original design specification"

There was no light vehicle modification scheme in Qld back then,
we used to envy the NSW guys with their street legal big block Falcons...

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well it is strange how a XR GT is a muscle car but a R32 skyline isn't.

No. A muscle car by it's very nature is a car that has lots of power butt doesn't turn corners.

An R32 actually does.

[T3man]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I wont even dare open the "what's a Factory musclecar" can of worms.... LOL

HAHAHA ... Chicken!

I will; here we go ...

Muscle car is a term used to refer to a variety of high performance automobiles.[1] The Merriam-Webster definition is more limiting, "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving."[2] The term generally refers to 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size cars, and sometimes full-size cars equipped with large, powerful, V8s, and sold at an affordable price for street use and both formal and informal drag racing.[3][4][5][6] As such, they are distinct from two-seat sports cars and expensive 2+2 GTs intended for high-speed touring and road racing.

Building on the American phenomenon and developing simultaneously in their own markets, muscle cars also emerged in their own fashions in Australia, South Africa, the UK, and elsewhere.

From Wiki of course

Edit; PS. There is some interesting reading in here including the world muscle car registry

http://musclecarclub.com/musclecars/...finition.shtml

[hendoau99]

im gunna say it ****** ADR27a. at the end of the day if you get pinged, you just go and rectify the problem. but there are loads of other crimes the police have on their minds.

[Silver Ghia]

Opening Post

Originally Posted by XCwillo

What are your thoughts people.
Early muscle cars, are they meant to be kept carburetted to have the spine shivering idle note and general sound that just cant be reproduced nowadays by computer managed fuel injection.
Or is there no difference in a Fuel Injected engine swap, saying that Muscle looks muscle is.

Thought came to me because I've been offered to have my 250 Crossflow worked with tripple webbers and the lot, or swap it for a FG XR6 engine.

IMO it would be a bit dissapointing to see a fuel injected engine in a classic. There's just something about carby fed engines that give them their own personality, and they look like a work of art if done right.

My thoughts is the correct answer is right there in the last two sentences above.

Love Flappys quote though:

Originally Posted by flappist

Muscle car running on LPG, sort of like the hot Thai chick with a bulge in her pants.....something is just wrong about it.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by hendoau99

im gunna say it ****** ADR27a. at the end of the day if you get pinged, you just go and rectify the problem. but there are loads of other crimes the police have on their minds.

What if rectifying the problem costs you thousands in reversing modifications?

Unfortunately for the op he has 4 things against him; 1) he lives in a small town community where he will be well known and a small police force that know most people in town, 2) he has a very noticeable vehicle with obvious modifications so he cant blend in, 3) he's a P Plater and 4) if he mods the engine to defect 27a he'll get pinged hard....

No good giving cavalier advice if all it does is causes him grief.

Normally what follows this kind of thing if poor advice is followed is a thread about how the police are "picking" on him....

[cs123]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Its those things and measured emmisions levels.... You can have all those things hooked up but if the car is modified and doesnt meet the emmisions requirements it can still be defected.

Of course. But 26 and 27 had defined emission levels too. 27A just added another one. So really any post Jan 72 that is modified can "fail" an emission test.

I think people are getting carried away with this. There would be next to no x-flow sixes getting around these days. It's not like it's the 80s. So it's hardly a demographic that the police would target. Most of the cars in the project thread would fail an emission test too.

Coppers are interested in kids with pod filters and BOVs on their Hondas

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by cs123

Of course. But 26 and 27 had defined emission levels too. 27A just added another one. So really any post Jan 72 that is modified can "fail" an emission test.

I think people are getting carried away with this. There would be next to no x-flow sixes getting around these days. It's not like it's the 80s. So it's hardly a demographic that the police would target. Most of the cars in the project thread would fail an emission test too.

Coppers are interested in kids with pod filters and BOVs on their Hondas

Police dont target engine types, they target modified cars, you're missing the point, if he modifies the car outside of ADR and roadworthyness he becomes an easy target if he draws any attention to himself...

[hendoau99]

4vman, i live in a smalll community and i too am a red p plater, i had a bit of a brain fart lol and realised i didnt really help the situation. xcwillo, keep your car as it is for now and when you get your blacks then modify the hell out of it. thsts what i'm gunna do anyway. but if you'd like better fuel economy and a bit more reliability then yeah put the xr6 engine in it.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by hendoau99

4vman, i live in a smalll community and i too am a red p plater, i had a bit of a brain fart lol and realised i didnt really help the situation. xcwillo, keep your car as it is for now and when you get your blacks then modify the hell out of it. thsts what i'm gunna do anyway. but if you'd like better fuel economy and a bit more reliability then yeah put the xr6 engine in it.

I think you've just countered your own arguement! LOL

[ratter]

The problem with most modified cars is they are illegal. It may not be an unsafe modification as such but by the law there is very little you can do to some cars, late model cars are worse to legally modify as they have a bigger list of requirements they must adhere to compared to early model cars.

Age of the driver should not affect how often you get pulled up, but in the real world it does. A young guy driving a modified car will get looked at and at some stage pulled over. P plates will make it worse as will your choice of driving location or hang out.

Now some cops do not care or even know about mods, but some do. Some cops are not interested in traffic matters as they have more important things to do, unless you act like a dick in front of them. But TMU cops are employed to look after traffic matters and that includes unroadworthy cars. You could pulled over for a RBT or even a licence check and the cop may not be interested in your car, but TMU may go over the car and canary for having illegal mods. There can also be a fine associated with driving an unroadworthy vehicle and possibly points on your licence
Now it may not be a big issue to you at first but if you have to pay somebody to make the car 100% legal and then have to pay a inspection fee it will start to hit your hip pocket. You may have to take time off work to get the car repaired and inspected and then down to the rego people for the final inspection, so this may affect your job.
What is happening in Vic is the cops are taking pics of cars and their mods and keeping these pics on file as a referral point to any future infringements. You will probably only get away with the same mod once before further action can be taken.
Now in a small town, the cops will start to pay attention after the first time you are done and you will find you will get randomly pulled over for further checks, even after having it all made legal. This may stop if the car is legal the 2nd or 3rd checks, but if it has been returned to the unroadworthy/modified state, you will be asking for trouble.
The police in general and authorities would like to have old cars off the road and would probably do their best to make sure this happens. I know locally the police have been told in the past to set up random checks and pick up older cars and check them for roadworthy.
Some cops will appreciate a tidy modified car driven safely, but a car that stands out will stand out to their attention and you may get one that does not appreciate what yu have done.

An XC will stand out in traffic, having a young driver and P plates will make them look harder, lumpy cams etc will draw more attention.

I have a ZC with a 460 big block in in, it has a lumpy cam, gear drives, hi stall, twin 3" system, roll cage, minitubs, front runners, aluminium drop tank etc etc. I do not drive it very often as I do not want to get hassled, but it was something I knew I was doing as was prepared to take the risk years ago when I built it. It is worse these days and I had the money to do it again I would probably go an entirely different way.

Good luck with your car, but think carefully about what you can afford, the reputation you may get with local authorities and then go for what you think is best

[Ohio XB]

I am going to give my response to the original question.


To ME, muscle car means old school era, 1960's and early 1970's. THAT is all there is in "muscle car" to an old fart like me. That's the era that the term was invented, and it was invented for those cars. Those cars came with carburetors, and you know what? Many of those cars became legend with those carburetors.

Cars of those eras have a more "machine" look than a "technology" look like today's cars have. As such, a carburetor looks much more like a machine than fuel injection. I don't know, putting EFI on an old pushrod V8 is like putting a Lazyboy recliner on top of a horse instead of a saddle. Yeah, the recliner is more comfortable than a saddle, but it just looks funny.

Yeah, some Corvettes had mechanical fuel injection but I know a lot of people, including myself, that considers a Corvette a sports car and not a muscle car.

Are today's engines better than the engines from the 1960's? As much as it pains me to say it, yes. Which would I prefer for fun? Give me the old pushrod, carbureted, real headered (no such thing as shorties, those are tubular manifolds), big sidewall tired car that was designed for looks and let aerodynamics pretty much fall where it may.

Hey, I love jeans, but I don't want my jeans made out of Rayon.



Steve

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Polyal, do we want people to give good sound advice or just "anything goes" advice??

Now more than ever before keeping your car on the safe side of ADR compliance can mean the difference between having transport or walking.... and it wont get any better..

Oh come on, because when you were on your P's you never once modified your car outside of what was legal? Its not like his dropping his pipes etc..its a bloody intake setup. Enough of the brown nosing please, we all know that you have some jihad for modifying cars. With your theory you are against everyone here with a tune?

My advice was do it if you want to, his car is already "illegal" (quick shoot him), keep the stock stuff laying about if he ever has an issue. Dont drive like a stooge and you wont get in any bother, be prepared to cop it when the situation arises.

We all know the game we play and if you modify a car without thinking of the consequences then thats the individuals problem. We are all capable of making a decision, you dont need a bunch of strangers on the internet to conclude your path.

Honestly, 90% of the cars on this site would be "illegal" in some way or form.

[hendoau99]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I think you've just countered your own arguement! LOL

LOL! i guess i did!