diesel cars in decline...

[Pedro]

I think the biggest factor in stagnating diesel sales is the rise in cost of diesel fuel. Years ago, diesel was always about 30% cheaper than petrol ... that's not the case today.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Ford has already said that is what there are going to do!!!! And that is what Ford has done today...

Yep, you can gaurantee if Ford even bother to advertise Ecoboost it won't mention anything about being 4 cylinder, it will just mention Ecoboost.

[jpd80]

Diesel cars are very profitable for manufacturers and it's the reason they haven't increased in volume as quickly.
Last year diesel cars fell 1,000 sales to around 44,700 while petrol cars fell 28,000 sales to 504,000.

Not one Ecoboost Falcon has been sold yet and saying it will replace diesels is highly presumptuous.
I think Ford needs both diesel and Ecoboost and IMO, EcoLPI way less than they anticipated....

[babyf6]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Diesel cars are very profitable for manufacturers and it's the reason they haven't increased in volume as quickly.
Last year diesel cars fell 1,000 sales to around 44,700 while petrol cars fell 28,000 sales to 504,000.

Not one Ecoboost Falcon has been sold yet and saying it will replace diesels is highly presumptuous.
I think Ford needs both diesel and Ecoboost and IMO, EcoLPI way less than they anticipated....

True but you never know what they might happen. EB4 falcons could outsell the current I6 falcon. It just depends on what the public feels like at the time.

[Nic85]

The big difference between turbo diesel cars and turbo petrol cars, is fuel usage in the real world. Diesel cars will pretty well always be economical, where as turbo petrol will drink like a fish when you push them a bit. The reviews I've read of the Euro turbo petrol cars all say the same - the claimed fuel economy figure is like Big Foot; a myth.

Take the Territory as a prime example. Talk to a petrol Territory owner, ATMO or turbo, and you'll find average fuel usage is probably 14L/100km+, that's with an ADR figure of 10. something. Then talk to the diesel owners. You'll find most will be well under 10L/100km.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Nic85

The big difference between turbo diesel cars and turbo petrol cars, is fuel usage in the real world. Diesel cars will pretty well always be economical, where as turbo petrol will drink like a fish when you push them a bit. The reviews I've read of the Euro turbo petrol cars all say the same - the claimed fuel economy figure is like Big Foot; a myth.

Take the Territory as a prime example. Talk to a petrol Territory owner, ATMO or turbo, and you'll find average fuel usage is probably 14L/100km+, that's with an ADR figure of 10. something. Then talk to the diesel owners. You'll find most will be well under 10L/100km.

The Ecoboost strategy is designed to ape the diesel's torque curve and fuel economy,
that's why it doesn't produce as much power as other High Perf. Euro Turbo petrol engines.
We will get the opportunity to see some real world economy comparisons between
the 4.0 I-6 and the 2.0 Ecoboost, Ford knows this and knows that can't do smoke and mirrors.
The savings are there to be had, just as the performance is there as well and as you said,
it depends how people want to drive and what they really want..

I believe there's a case for Ecoboost AND V6 Diesel but unlike Ford I have no data...
Remembering that Tom Gorman felt there was no business case for diesel Territory....

[Nic85]

I've owned turbo cars for quite a long time now, and I know the Ecoboost has very technical and precise fuel ignition etc, but put a 2L turbo engine in a 1700kg sedan and give it a boot full, and it will drink like a pirate.

From what I've read on this forum, the average 4L petrol Falcon owner, doing the normal surburban run, will average somewhere from 11-15L/100km, depending on the amount of stop/start, and the way they drive. I really think the real world for Ecoboost will be in the vicinity of 10-13L/100km. You can put me on the record if you like, and we'll see when the tests start coming in.

[302 XC]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

That same technology on heavy equipment will eventually filter down to cars, I'm talking about diesel as a whole.

Renault has a Falcon sized car with a diesel engine, BMW is doing diesels now in its M performance division, hell out of all the euro brands, BMW has the best diesel tech by far.

It will still be used in SUVs, look how popular the diesel Territory is, all the other smaller SUVs as well.

Look what emissions laws did to V8s in the 70s/80s, they where useless, low on power, the figures are laughable to me and it makes me wonder why you would even bother with a 351 Clevo which did 150 odd KW from the factory in the XE Falcon. Eventually things picked up as they looked and researched into it more.

Comparing 70s/80s technology is not even close for fair game
If you think a smog chocked up 351 was nothin to write home about,go take a n/a diesel from the era for a run
Youll no doubt walk faster,even in standard factory turbo guise they still wernt rocket ships,had minimal boost , mostly wernt intercooled
But theres lads getting 400 nm of torque at the wheels in some ol skool turbo diesels in 4x4s ,even from old technology you can get some good power figures
Most older diesels be it n/a or turbo were designed for their low down torque and there usually trouble free million k life span
Although the late 90s,early 00s nissan patrol with the smaller boosted engines,the 2.8 and 3l,proove that pumping boost in a small engined large car doesnt mean your on a winner

[csv8]

Not as far as BMW are concerned. http://www.caradvice.com.au/158256/b...biles-comment/

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

Comparing 70s/80s technology is not even close for fair game
If you think a smog chocked up 351 was nothin to write home about,go take a n/a diesel from the era for a run
Youll no doubt walk faster,even in standard factory turbo guise they still wernt rocket ships,had minimal boost , mostly wernt intercooled
But theres lads getting 400 nm of torque at the wheels in some ol skool turbo diesels in 4x4s ,even from old technology you can get some good power figures
Most older diesels be it n/a or turbo were designed for their low down torque and there usually trouble free million k life span
Although the late 90s,early 00s nissan patrol with the smaller boosted engines,the 2.8 and 3l,proove that pumping boost in a small engined large car doesnt mean your on a winner

Exactly right. Look at the Amarok. In it's highest form the 2L diesel engine makes 132kW and 420Nm, which is great. But, the new one will tow 3.2 tonnes, and the car already weighs 2.2 tonnes, plus you can put 1 tonne in the back of it, so over 6 tonnes being pulled along by a 2L diesel running god knows how much boost. Surely that can't be good?

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by csv8

Not as far as BMW are concerned. http://www.caradvice.com.au/158256/b...biles-comment/

I love this quote...

The M550d xDrive sedan under full steam with this engine will accelerate from 0-100km/h in a blistering 4.7 seconds. That’s precisely the same time it took the previous (E60) M5 to do the same job. But here’s the punch line; in the EU test cycle, fuel consumption was 6.3L/100km, while CO2 emissions are 165g/km.

As fast as the previous generation M5 to 100km/h (4.7s) and only slightly slower than the new twin turbo V8 M5 to 100km/h (4.4s), yet uses more than 40% less fuel and has 30% fewer emissions. Yeah, diesel is crap.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by Nic85

Exactly right. Look at the Amarok. In it's highest form the 2L diesel engine makes 132kW and 420Nm, which is great. But, the new one will tow 3.2 tonnes, and the car already weighs 2.2 tonnes, plus you can put 1 tonne in the back of it, so over 6 tonnes being pulled along by a 2L diesel running god knows how much boost. Surely that can't be good?

Yep unlike the Nissan engine..
It has GOOD rod bolts...
One weak link in the chain can stuff up a good engine..
It was under heaving load they failed also...
If seen newer diesel engines from Nissan pulled down due to water ingestion..
The rods and bolts are VERY strong compared to earlier motors..
In Europe they may be on decline.. But they are everywhere here..
It may have something to do with the economics in Europe at present also..
Where petrol engines are cheaper...

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

Comparing 70s/80s technology is not even close for fair game
If you think a smog chocked up 351 was nothin to write home about,go take a n/a diesel from the era for a run

Thats not what I meant, I was mentioning how everyone thinks because of emissions laws something will die, then used the 70s and 80s to compare when emissions laws hit hard and it forced the manufacturers to do their research. We still have V8s today, hell we've got a 5L supercharged one. I think Ford made a bad move back then dropping the V8 rather than spending money on R&D to further it, whch brings me back to diesel.

If they spend the money, I don't see diesel going anywhere.

If anything I think emissions laws are good, and I'm not just talking about the "environment" (which frankly I don't give a rats *** about), I'm talking technology advances which are forced to happen or the manufacturer will lose out.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Nic85

Take the Territory as a prime example. Talk to a petrol Territory owner, ATMO or turbo, and you'll find average fuel usage is probably 14L/100km+, that's with an ADR figure of 10. something. Then talk to the diesel owners. You'll find most will be well under 10L/100km.

you realise the ADR figure of 10.x is a combined figure!

Originally Posted by Nic85

I've owned turbo cars for quite a long time now, and I know the Ecoboost has very technical and precise fuel ignition etc, but put a 2L turbo engine in a 1700kg sedan and give it a boot full, and it will drink like a pirate.

From what I've read on this forum, the average 4L petrol Falcon owner, doing the normal surburban run, will average somewhere from 11-15L/100km, depending on the amount of stop/start, and the way they drive. I really think the real world for Ecoboost will be in the vicinity of 10-13L/100km. You can put me on the record if you like, and we'll see when the tests start coming in.

you can't really compare ecoboost to other turbo petrol engines. sure, if you stick the boot in it may drink, but if you look at the torque curve, on paper it looks like you won't need to ring its neck to get it going. most other small capacity turbo cars don't have 350nm @ 2000rpm.

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by prydey

you realise the ADR figure of 10.x is a combined figure!



you can't really compare ecoboost to other turbo petrol engines. sure, if you stick the boot in it may drink, but if you look at the torque curve, on paper it looks like you won't need to ring its neck to get it going. most other small capacity turbo cars don't have 350nm @ 2000rpm.

Yes, I do realise the combined fuel consumption of a petrol Territory is 10.x something. I was comparing real world figures, ie; what people actually get, with what the ADR figure says. They're two different numbers generally. Especially in big petrol cars.

The Golf GTi apparently makes 280Nm at 1750rpm, but when I drove one, the turbo didn't even seem to come on until around 1800rpm.

I'll wait for the tests to come in before I say anymore, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Dusty1]

Will government and lease start going for the Ecoboost?

If I was in the market for a large car in a few years, I'd look at it.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Nic85

Yes, I do realise the combined fuel consumption of a petrol Territory is 10.x something. I was comparing real world figures, ie; what people actually get, with what the ADR figure says. They're two different numbers generally. Especially in big petrol cars.

you can't compare the ADR combined figure with real world urban figures. thats what i was trying to say. the combined figure is achieved through a very specific process. if you want apples for apples, compare the ADR urban figure which is around 16L/100km.

if you look at most peoples FG economy, they are well within the ADR figure as well. urban for xr6 is 14.6 officially.

the ADR figures i find are reasonably close to the mark.

[Brazen]

I dont understand the article, the numbers show diesel increasing in share. At this rate 1 in 3 vehicles on the road will be diesel in the next couple of years.

All the article is saying is that there will be more petrol engine variants qualifying for the Luxury Car Tax concession and so there will be some substitution in some of the premium brands

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I dont understand the article, the numbers show diesel increasing in share. At this rate 1 in 3 vehicles on the road will be diesel in the next couple of years.

All the article is saying is that there will be more petrol engine variants qualifying for the Luxury Car Tax concession and so there will be some substitution in some of the premium brands

Exactly, the guy has looked at diesel sales 2011 Vs 2010 and saw that diesel sales had fallen slightly,
made a huge call that diesel cars were in decline yet failed to noticed that petrol car sales were down a lot more...

This "mail it in" article is why people run off thinking diesels are fail in cars yet remain completely
oblivious that a lot of the cars they see in traffic are now diesels.

[prydey]

what has caused the increase in diesel sales? its not the addition of diesel to large passenger cars is it!!

bmw, whilst spending big on diesel tech, have said the future might be small capacity petrol turbo.

what works in one segment doesn't automatically mean it will work in another.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

what has caused the increase in diesel sales? its not the addition of diesel to large passenger cars is it!!

bmw, whilst spending big on diesel tech, have said the future might be small capacity petrol turbo.

what works in one segment doesn't automatically mean it will work in another.

I'm not saying one or the other, I'm saying offer the buyer a choice like a lot of large Euro makers currently do.
There's evidence to show that the heavier a vehicle gets the better the return on a diesel...

[prydey]

but ford don't have the finances to do it....

none of their main competitors offer diesel either (commodore, aurion,)

[jpd80]

And that's why everyone's big car sales are in decline, they keep doing the same things over and over...

How insane is it to keep trying the same things and expect a different result...

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by prydey

but ford don't have the finances to do it....

none of their main competitors offer diesel either (commodore, aurion,)

Why does Ford have to be behind the 8 ball then? Why don't they lead the pack?

Just like Territory, diesel came late. Mixer ring LPG system up until recently, etc.

Ford's motto should be "Always following everyone else".

[prydey]

money!!


and can someone list me the large or mid diesel passenger cars (sedans) that are outselling their diesel counterparts in australia.

[kevino]

Um. C class benz?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by prydey

money!!


and can someone list me the large or mid diesel passenger cars (sedans) that are outselling their diesel counterparts in australia.

And you don't make money if barely anyone buys your product either, endless circle.

Maybe they need to spend the money to make it.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Why does Ford have to be behind the 8 ball then? Why don't they lead the pack?

Just like Territory, diesel came late. Mixer ring LPG system up until recently, etc.

Ford's motto should be "Always following everyone else".

thats the stupidist thing ive read. In what ways beside everyones opinion that terri should have had diesel earlier..does ford follow in everyones footsteps.??? Ford has had the best engines gearboxes and euro styling in its local cars for a looong time now. XRT falcon???what about that....that lead to the greatest sedan in the world in its class.
Ive always been of the opinion that ford IS doing the right thing in aus....and they are deff doing a great job in this market..with their share and some rather bad journos and their biased stories in articles for years now.I could go on but its preaching to the converted who just want to whinge that they cant have everything. Funny thing about whingeing you dont have to worry about HINDSIGHT.

My opinion on diesel falcon is that it doesnt really make a buisness case to me. Ford going with the cheaper engine options will now allow them to upspec their cars as much as possible...whereas the well known premium on diesels will not allow this to happen.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

thats the stupidist thing ive read. In what ways beside everyones opinion that terri should have had diesel earlier..does ford follow in everyones footsteps.??? Ford has had the best engines gearboxes and euro styling in its local cars for a looong time now. XRT falcon???what about that....that lead to the greatest sedan in the world in its class.
Ive always been of the opinion that ford IS doing the right thing in aus....and they are deff doing a great job in this market..with their share and some rather bad journos and their biased stories in articles for years now.I could go on but its preaching to the converted who just want to whinge that they cant have everything. Funny thing about whingeing you dont have to worry about HINDSIGHT.

My opinion on diesel falcon is that it doesnt really make a buisness case to me. Ford going with the cheaper engine options will now allow them to upspec their cars as much as possible...whereas the well known premium on diesels will not allow this to happen.

Yeah mate, Falcon is going awesome, less than 1000 sales last month, EcoLPI which doesn't sell and was late to the market, 7 years until the Territory got diesel, local cars which don't even have auto up/down on all windows which is the least of the tech features everything else has had since Jesus was playing full back for Jerusalem.

Or introducing the run out model Kuga, with the outgoing engine, with no diesel option in a segment which diesel has a significant market share, with a 5sp auto when everyone else has 6sp much like Yellow Festiva mentioned in the other thread.

Look at how long it took to get the Focus over here, they persisted on the Laser for all that time when there was a clearly better product.

To me the Ecoboost has potential, its all about perception though.

Its all good having "the greatest sedan in the world", how much use is that when its part of a segment which barely anyone is buying and has been on the decline for a while now?

Maybe Ford Australia should stop making cars, just do what we do best which seems to be design and become an importer selling the Europe/American Fords, which are 10x better equipped and have a chance of standing up to the competition.

To me Ford is always behind the others, they seem to be late to the party on introducing stuff in their range, they'd be late to their own funeral. When they come out with something it is generally good though, look at the I6, thats a fairly good engine even if it is a bit of a dinosaur with an iron block and no direct injection, too bad its a goner though.

[ebxr8240]

Diesel will be great on larger vehicles while turbo petrol with be great on lighter IMO.. The Terry would be large enough to possibly be better with diesel ??
Keep in mind there has to be a % of petrol and diesel.. There is a % of each
made from crude oil...