The 'nanny state' gets worse...

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i have 1st hand experience where employers lead you into an accident .
i attended a funeral , and instead of going to the wake , i felt obliged to go to work , when i got to work i informed the boss i had just came from a funeral !!!
one would think that work should be allocated accordingly in these circumastances , but no , i was sent straight up into a dangerous job , whilst others were allocated softer work for the day , 1/2 hr later i had a fall , fractured my back ,broke 2 ribs , punctured my lung , and liver and was in the back of an ambulance , and had 4 months off on compo .
a little common sense may have prevented this .

this is a classic example of not my fault, seeking others to blame..
sorry frank, but you're the drongo for rocking up to work in an unfit state of mind....

[castellan]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i totally agree with this .
at the moment employers push psuyh and push unsafe work practices and long hours with no consideration to the employees or thier families .
Recently the emphasis of safety has been put moreso onto the employee rather than the company being resposible for negligence , so WHY NOT GIVE THEM SOME OF THIER OWN BACK .
most people dont realize when a truck overtakes them , he is in a hurry and fatigued because his company has him on a deadline , which a lot of them take drugs just to stay awake . ( that isnt acceptable ) we all know about it but that seems ok . ( well it's not ok ) .

Yes there are real idiots out there who don't give a rats as all they look at is the paper work side of theirs and could not do the work they push on others if they tried.
I have a mate who loaded trucks and another mate of mine got him the boot because he did not give a rats how it was loaded and just wanted his trucks loaded as fast as possible. so old mate who loads is responsible if the driver of the truck he just loaded has accident and he can be sued for it. but the truck company dude could not give a rats.

I am a contractor, subcontracting for a builder and i can not say anything as to the correct way it should be done, so as there is no problems down the track but they are not interested or don't have the brains to understand. and you will just get the boot if you complain. and they have the hide to say if there is problem, you can just come back and fix it. why should i when i know that it will fail, but when i am not sure. i should be able to go to the BSA and get such a one the boot out of the industry, but no it does not work that way

[Bucknaked]

I yawn all the time at work. I need more time off.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

this is a classic example of not my fault, seeking others to blame..
sorry frank, but you're the drongo for rocking up to work in an unfit state of mind....

i agree and havent pointed the finger to anyone else nor received a cent other than wages paid for time off .
i came with in a BEEZ dick of a wheel chair and death .
i felt i would be ridiculed for having a sickie , as i have been a bit of a workaholic . i was on a roster also which does not comply with OHS .
IT'S EASY TO SIT BACK AND SAY IT WAS YOUR FAULT TO ME but dont say ive been wrapped in cotton wool with benifits and a fair go as well .
i faced life in a chair for 7 weeks unable to lie down and walked with a stick for a month , i faced the possibility of losing my next 25 years employment , and had to harden up and stop an insurance company trying to punt me and pay me out , or relocate me into casual employment as a door man or something .
perhaps the opinion that we've all got it too good and take massive amounts of sick leave and rort everything has placed upon us a guilt that just shouldnt be there .
i know now , not to listen to media about rorting sick leave , i also know not to take unnecessary risks at work , and have no problem arguing with the bosses about unproductive performances as i simply blame them for not providing a safe attitude and work environment , you see the bosses and company have no problem with me losing my life or legs and income , theyll simply be there next week working still .
employees will also bag each other and themeselves for having it to good , and not manning up and takig a small risk .
some people would say we are wrapped in cotton wool .
i find if i play by the law , than the attitude of the bosses and those that say we have it too good , simply dont apply , and they may as well talk to themselves about it , and perhaps one day they might see it from a surgury bed or wheelchair through different eyes .
you see it was my fault for turning up and hoping my employer will look after me , i should've simply went to the wake , had a sickie and not worried about my job , or some idiot trying to impress his own ego .
I'ts sad to think back of all the unsafe things i did to please some idiot throwing out orders , and its great to see these idiots slowly becoming acoountable for the attitudes that we have inherited as workers .

[MITCHAY]

Having worked shift work before I have to say a lot of management have no clue. We debated a roster for 6-8 weeks and no one liked it at all, kept getting voted down.

I did one up in a couple of hours (funnily enough while on shift) and everyone of my work mates loved it.

Better still it covered the core hours better and it worked well, pity I left before it started.

You have bosses that a lot of the time have never done the work, have no idea and worse still don't involve the workers in any consultation process.

We had some director cover a night shift position once. Not only was he on double time so sweet pay then he did the job as dodgy as he told everyone else not to do.

To add insult to it all then had the balls to say 'I don't know why you guys complain so much, this is easy'. Wow one night on a 3 week roster and you did nothing correctly and actually made more work.

I will never do shift work again if I can avoid it. I have never felt so crap in my life.

And this was office work (IT) , I don't want to even imagine what it would be like working in a physical job.

[flappist]

It is always so amusing to read the dribble of all those who hate their employers then scream unfair when they lose their jobs.

THERE IS NO ONE WHO HAS MORE OR LESS RIGHTS OR OBLIGATIONS THAN ANYONE ELSE.

If you think you are being taken advantage of then quit your job and go out into the world and work for yourself, take all the risks for yourself, have the pressure 24 hours a day and 7 days a week and THEN when the load gets too high offer to give someone else money to do some of the work.

The trick is to get one who will do it under the same conditions as you.
No paid holidays.
No paid sick leave.
No job security at all.
Total legal, financial and social responsibility for not only yourself but everyone else.
That is what being an employer is all about.

The world is not fair, never has been, never will be......get used to it.

The more regulations and cotton wool the less likelihood of you getting or keeping a job as you become just too expensive and difficult.

YOU are responsible for your life, your decisions and your future.....NO ONE ELSE.

Of course if you want some one else to be responsible for all that then be prepared for them to make decisions that you don't like.......

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by flappist

It is always so amusing to read the dribble of all those who hate their employers then scream unfair when they lose their jobs.

THERE IS NO ONE WHO HAS MORE OR LESS RIGHTS OR OBLIGATIONS THAN ANYONE ELSE.

If you think you are being taken advantage of then quit your job and go out into the world and work for yourself, take all the risks for yourself, have the pressure 24 hours a day and 7 days a week and THEN when the load gets too high offer to give someone else money to do some of the work.

The trick is to get one who will do it under the same conditions as you.
No paid holidays.
No paid sick leave.
No job security at all.
Total legal, financial and social responsibility for not only yourself but everyone else.
That is what being an employer is all about.

The world is not fair, never has been, never will be......get used to it.

The more regulations and cotton wool the less likelihood of you getting or keeping a job as you become just too expensive and difficult.

YOU are responsible for your life, your decisions and your future.....NO ONE ELSE.

Of course if you want some one else to be responsible for all that then be prepared for them to make decisions that you don't like.......

why on earth would you leave your job when there is an idiot trying to work unsafe , or direct others to go above and beyond conditions and duty for a job , when you can simply sit back and watch this person get escorted off the job ( sacked ) in a year or 2 . thats what normally happens to incopetant bosses . we call them temporary dills .

[flappist]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

why on earth would you leave your job when there is an idiot trying to work unsafe , or direct others to go above and beyond conditions and duty for a job , when you can simply sit back and watch this person get escorted off the job ( sacked ) in a year or 2 . thats what normally happens to incopetant bosses . we call them temporary dills .

You mean as opposed to permanent dills.....

Yes everything is always everyone else's fault isn't it?

As I said above, if you don't like it don't do it. MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICES.
If you want your boss to give you money then do what he says. No one is forcing you to work there.

[gtxb67]

well said flappist . . . again

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by flappist

You mean as opposed to permanent dills.....

Yes everything is always everyone else's fault isn't it?

you should talk to a few industrial relations psycholigists . they have the stats .
it's actually part of rehab . Dr's Orders . they have the stats , and what the person thinks is usually wrong when it comes to who's fault it was .
there is a difference between the the perception that we all have and the facts.

the ones that make retirement , or get promoted , did not do it through hard work and knowledge . of course there are others > sucks , that get hand picked as well as temporary dills . LOL

[Franco Cozzo]

So no electrical work after 2pm?

We're auto electricians, how would that work?

Is this just a Victorian thing? Because if it is I can see this pushing our already rocky operation which is borderline to going under and they'll go back to making our Ambulances in Sydney and I lose my apprenticeship and the rest of the production team loses their jobs.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

So no electrical work after 2pm?

We're auto electricians, how would that work?

Is this just a Victorian thing? Because if it is I can see this pushing our already rocky operation which is borderline to going under and they'll go back to making our Ambulances in Sydney and I lose my apprenticeship and the rest of the production team loses their jobs.

no damo . THAT IS JUST YOU MAKING UP RUBBISH .

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by flappist

You mean as opposed to permanent dills.....

Yes everything is always everyone else's fault isn't it?

As I said above, if you don't like it don't do it. MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICES.
If you want your boss to give you money then do what he says. No one is forcing you to work there.

perfect example of why employees get killed .

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

and its great to see these idiots slowly becoming acoountable for the attitudes that we have inherited as workers .

and yet if someone who has no idea of what speed they are doing are held accountable after being caught 45 kph over the speed limit on 2 occasions, it is wrong. i guess accountability only matters if it suits the individual's personal agenda

[UberKnee]

This is pathetic and just further proof that our society is going down the shitter. Rather than focus things that matter eggheads like this sit around and think up more ways to coddle people, no wonder everyone's so soft theseday's don't have to work if you're tired.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

This is pathetic and just further proof that our society is going down the shitter. Rather than focus things that matter eggheads like this sit around and think up more ways to coddle people, no wonder everyone's so soft theseday's don't have to work if you're tired.

agree entirely
i get idiots both in our factory and courier/truck drivers walking behind a reversing forklift. is that my bosses or my fault that they don't see or hear it reversing . . . . the only person who should be held accountable in that situation is the idiot walking behind it. unfortunately, i know i will be held accountable if something happens, not the moron that did it

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

This is pathetic and just further proof that our society is going down the shitter. Rather than focus things that matter eggheads like this sit around and think up more ways to coddle people, no wonder everyone's so soft theseday's don't have to work if you're tired.

OK EGGHEAD . if your appendix burst , would you rather a surgeon starting his shift operate , or someone who has done 15 hrs already today and 15 hours a day all week . and would you be concerned if he was yawning when your going under LOL , I GUESS NOT , HIS BOSS CERTAINLY DOESNT MIND , NOR DOES HE CAUSE HES MAKING HEAPS . think of his experience and goodwill as a servent though , you'd be in great hands , the people that get stitched up with scissors left inside them , well thats thier fault for going there late at night .
as a side note . that doesnt make the surgeon a dill , but it does make his managers temporary DILLS .

ONE THING IS SURE , THERE WILL BE NO WINNERS . but there will be lots of people who know better and lots of people saying the doctor wasnt up to it .

[|||]

i dont know what we'd do if news limited & today tonight weren't here to tell us what to be angry about

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

no damo . THAT IS JUST YOU MAKING UP RUBBISH .

It days no electrical work after 2pm in that news article?

You've gotta be careful sometimes, I'm all for OH&S and employer responsibility on these matters, but you have to be careful because you can tip a business over the edge, same thing with unions pushing pay rises in an EBA in a company pushing borderline with making losses, eventually the bean counters running the show will move the business off shore.

[Jastel]

Your perfect world assumes there is another doctor to replace the tired one...often there is not.

This applies to ALL jobs...there is an endless supply of unemplpoyed but not an endless supply of people who can (and want to) do the job.

I would rather the 15 hour doctor try to fix me than die on the table because he went home to make bureaucrats feel happy. Hell the cleaner can have a go for all I care if there is no one else around...

Welcome to Greece!!

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Jastel

Your perfect world assumes there is another doctor to replace the tired one...often there is not.

This applies to ALL jobs...there is an endless supply of unemplpoyed but not an endless supply of people who can (and want to) do the job.

I would rather the 15 hour doctor try to fix me than die on the table because he went home to make bureaucrats feel happy. Hell the cleaner can have a go for all I care if there is no one else around...

Welcome to Greece!!

ever been to an ER department and seen the waiting room , then went inside the ER , Either as a patient or visitor . and wondered why only 1/2 the beds have people in them ? ever spoke to the nurses who are going on strike that day , being ridiculed all over the media at the time , well i was a patient that day , i had mixed emotions .
i was wondering how many people would die at the hospital that day due to lack of care , and felt proud that the nurses were taking action for . not enough staff amployed at the hospital , and the govt/or admin department cutting bed numbers and hospital budgets .
please i'm getting sick of explaining things to sheep , who constantly listen to the rich filthy mongrals telling everyone else how it is , and agreeing with them ( those thats life is way above yours ) . i'll bow out now .

[vanman_75]

Everyones industry is different , my work requires 14 hours in total day .4-2-4-6 when I'm needed to work I make sure I sleep , no drinking , little socializing...many I work with cbf managing fatigue ready for work , lucky our work place has people like me to cover for these people , everyone wants the world ...and in a perfect world that could happen ...its a pity its the negligent people that make it worse for people that are genuine ...hey if your day / or wellbeing is going to end badly ...go home .I would prefer you there - if you have genuine fatigue issues seek help , it is not the employers fault ..

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

OK EGGHEAD . if your appendix burst , would you rather a surgeon starting his shift operate , or someone who has done 15 hrs already today and 15 hours a day all week . and would you be concerned if he was yawning when your going under LOL , I GUESS NOT , HIS BOSS CERTAINLY DOESNT MIND , NOR DOES HE CAUSE HES MAKING HEAPS . think of his experience and goodwill as a servent though , you'd be in great hands , the people that get stitched up with scissors left inside them , well thats thier fault for going there late at night .
as a side note . that doesnt make the surgeon a dill , but it does make his managers temporary DILLS .

ONE THING IS SURE , THERE WILL BE NO WINNERS . but there will be lots of people who know better and lots of people saying the doctor wasnt up to it .

I'll bite at this one - this type of situation would be unusual, but it does occur that we would have to work those kind of hours.
First point - there is no evidence (and it has been studied comprehensively) that this would result in an error such as the one described would occur. We work in a team environment, and we have lots of checks to make sure what you describe does not happen. yes it does occur on occasions, but it is usually the scrub nurses who are responsible for counting instruments/gauze/drains etc at the end of an op.
As to yawning - yes we do it all the time under the masks. We are used to working tired.
So would you prefer a surgeon actually do your appendix, or would you prefer to go septic while he has a nanna nap?

The issue for us is more complex than simple yawn meters and a 40 hour week, and the pay we earn is not relevant to the topic.
As a trainee surgeon, it used to be expected to do 100 hour weeks. This has been reduced. Not because of safety concerns, but because they could not get the appropriate number of suitable applicants for surgery college - students preferred to choose specialities that had less onerous hours and allowed a work-life balance. The problem with this reduction in hours is that residents do not get the exposure to as broad a range of sugical cases, so thay are looking at extending the training program for a few more years, which has the problem of turning the applicants off for easier specialties!

So before you comment on what we do, just ask whether you want your kids' appendix fixed, or you want them to go septic

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

OK EGGHEAD . if your appendix burst , would you rather a surgeon starting his shift operate , or someone who has done 15 hrs already today and 15 hours a day all week . and would you be concerned if he was yawning when your going under LOL , I GUESS NOT , HIS BOSS CERTAINLY DOESNT MIND , NOR DOES HE CAUSE HES MAKING HEAPS . think of his experience and goodwill as a servent though , you'd be in great hands , the people that get stitched up with scissors left inside them , well thats thier fault for going there late at night .
as a side note . that doesnt make the surgeon a dill , but it does make his managers temporary DILLS .

ONE THING IS SURE , THERE WILL BE NO WINNERS . but there will be lots of people who know better and lots of people saying the doctor wasnt up to it .

Doctors routinely work 20 hour shifts and they seem to manage fine. It comes with the job, they make do by getting whatever sleep they whenever they can. Its part of the job.

This is just a case of where stupid people get hurt on the job while tired they can blame their boss or somebody else. If you're that tired or that distracted maybe you shouldn't be at a risky job in the first place. Manage YOUR time better so your not tired at work, don't go out boozing till 5am then get up for work at 7am and complain you're in an unsafe environment because your tired. People need to take responsibility for their own actions, instead our society just creates more excuses for people.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i totally agree with this .
at the moment employers push psuyh and push unsafe work practices and long hours with no consideration to the employees or thier families .
Recently the emphasis of safety has been put moreso onto the employee rather than the company being resposible for negligence , so WHY NOT GIVE THEM SOME OF THIER OWN BACK .

Why not quit and find a job where you aren't pushed so much ?

Originally Posted by gtfpv

most people dont realize when a truck overtakes them , he is in a hurry and fatigued because his company has him on a deadline ,

And some of us just like driving fast, or you're driving too slow.

Originally Posted by gtfpv

which a lot of them take drugs just to stay awake . ( that isnt acceptable ) we all know about it but that seems ok . ( well it's not ok ) .

Wrong.... unless you watch ACA.

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i attended a funeral , and instead of going to the wake , i felt obliged to go to work , when i got to work i informed the boss i had just came from a funeral !!!
one would think that work should be allocated accordingly in these circumastances , but no , i was sent straight up into a dangerous job , whilst others were allocated softer work for the day , 1/2 hr later i had a fall , fractured my back ,broke 2 ribs , punctured my lung , and liver and was in the back of an ambulance , and had 4 months off on compo .
a little common sense may have prevented this .

Why would you think you would be allocated an easier job? Did you tell your boss that you were mentally fragile and wanted an easy job that afternoon.

You reported for work, therefore your boss would think you are fit for work.
If your were not fit then it's your fault for turning up and not being able to do your job properly.
What did workcover think of your injuries and was any action taken against your employer?

[onfire]

Jesus.. you can debate semantics, different factors, different variances, different hypothetical situations and all the " what if " scenarios all you want.. the reality goes back to the root point...

... keeping the employees happy.

If I'm tired, sore, exhausted, over-worked, etc.. I'm grumpy, fatigued and probably a little unhappy.. as are you, and every one else after a massive week. Which leads to stress, a lack of motivation, care factor, attention to detail and poor decision making.. all these things, straight up can lead to a potential health and safety risk. Simple.

It's not about prying into people's social lives, or sending people home because they're got a case of the cbf's.

It's not about Jimmy being tried because he's stayed up all night playing online poker, that's Jimmy's fault.. it's about management and employers asking the questions like " why is Billy yawning and looking exhausted when it's 2.30pm on a Wednesday afternoon? " and taking into consideration that Billy has already pulled 40+ hours.

[mik]

OHS obviously has a place .............up to a point, and there needs to be a happy medium but.......,
i was talking about this to a mate a couple of hours ago, he is a trucky and also a bus company owner, he mentioned Australia out of 52 country`s is the 51`s worst for productivity lost because of over the top rules and regs, i don`t know how accurate his facts are ,
but he also said he was recently kicked out a steel yard because the company he was picking up steel from no longer insured those in the yard not employed by them!
he rang the company who requested he do the job and they then said he would have to pay for extra insurance to cover himself in their yard,
from memory he said this would cost him another $4000.00, add to that $8000.00 to register the vehicle before he even turns a wheel.
another mate of mine works for a council,
the maximum weight they are told they can lift is 16 kg`s, which he claims is bloody hysterical, because he could`nt possibly do his job if he followed their guidelines, he has told me many other OHS rules and regs regarding modifications to vehicles for insurance purposes(safety) that have cost thousands upon thousands of dollars because of over the top OHS laws is beyond belief and some don`t work,
any wonder it cost`s $70,000.00 to build a $50,000 dollar car in Australia.

[prydey]

did anyone hear that?

it was the sound of all the grandparents and older generations turning in their graves!!

most of them would be embarassed by this sort of talk.

funny how 40 hours a week now almost seems like a 'big' week, and anyone who does over 50 hours a week is dicing with death.

if you are not fit for work due to your social life, then you don't deserve a job.

[steve.zissou]

personal responsibility -

should be more of it. if you are not co-ordinated enough or smart enough to use an angle grinder or power saw, thats your problem - and further more, if you injure someone because of your incompitance, it should be you that is liable, not your boss or the company.
work in construction for a week then go work in a govt department for a week - you're eyes will be opened.


your to tired to work, tell your boss. tell him this too many times and they should be able to find someone that doesn't get tired so much.

[2011G6E]

Fatigue management is a simply huge part of our industry (train driving). We have education campaigns, handouts, booklets, meetings, etc, on how tom manage and more importantly recognise fatigue.

We all know heroes who claim they can drive on a trip for twelve or more hours straight, but they can't. Well...they do, but they're human like the rest of us and are affected by fatigue.

The trick with the difference between being "tired" and being "fatigued" is that you will know you are tired, but you won't usually know when you're fatigued, which is much more dangerous. Unless you know the warning signs...or have an offsider like we do who is told to watch for them...you will not know you've drifted off until the worst happens.

We are told that if we think we might be unfit for duty for any reason (as with the above case of going to work after a funeral), then just call in sick. If you have a valid explanation, you won't get into trouble. It;s our responsibility to ensure we are fit for duty.