Holden on the verge of closing Australian plants

[Blue_XR]

Also I am not a marketing expert, however if I was in charge of Holden or Ford, I would take my product and let people experience it. For arguments sake, the amount of people that walk through Martin Place in Sydney everyday. There are always promotions on there.

I do not see why Ford or Holden could set up a specific Falcon or Commodore stand and tell the people about it. Run it for a week and see how it goes.

Maybe a stand for all the vehicles in the range. Let people experience them.

Let people know about the Ecoboost Falcon! for example. Have people on the stand that actually know about the car.

Show people what an Australian made car is. Most would remember what they were like in the 80's or 90's. They have changed for the better.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I would say that most of those component jobs are already gone, look at the volumes
of parts actually imported by Holden and Ford from their Asia Pacific suppliers.
That change happened so gradually over the past decade that most missed it so what's
actually happening now is that Ford and Holden are importing mostly Asian parts to assemble here...

There is still sub assembly and work done here that cannot be shipped. Even with parts coming from o/s.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by vztrt

There is still sub assembly and work done here that cannot be shipped. Even with parts coming from o/s.

Cheap parts from overseas? How about one step further and bring workers from overseas. At least we will have an industry. Well America has the Mexicans to do their dirty work. Why can't we do the same and use asylum seeker, immigration detainee labour in return for refuge from their home countries. Just a bit of food their way, shelter, gated community and they would probably be churning out cars for half the price of Thai worker and with smiles in their faces knowing they had nothing to lose and any place is better than their country of origin. These workers will give local workers a few lessons in efficiency and productivity. The problem with our country is nobody wants to work, dollars come easy for minimal effort, living costs soar, and people then go and blow this money on that imported Hyundai, Mazda, etc. Screw political correctness and diplomacy, desperate times call for desperate measures.

[fanboi]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

Sorry mate, but narrow minded comments like that won't get you any respect from me. Australian industry as a whole is in trouble and it will affect us all.

im sure your respect is very imprtant to him

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Cheap parts from overseas?

Or parts that are no longer made in Australia. It doesn't just come from China. The steering column (unless something changed) comes from Spain. The ICC screens come from Singapore. There are parts from Japan and the US. Then there is still stuff that is made here.

[Bossxr8]

Holden are screwed. They massively overspent on the VF expecting a big increase in sales, and according to one Holden worker I know sales for the VF aren't doing very well. They made a huge gamble in spending so much on VF but it was never going to stop people buying small cars, SUV's and dual cab utes.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

The component and associated industries that will close when Ford, Holden and Toyota shut shop will put near on 200,000 people out of work.

Originally Posted by jpd80

I would say that most of those component jobs are already gone, look at the volumes of parts actually imported by Holden and Ford from their Asia Pacific suppliers.
That change happened so gradually over the past decade that most missed it so what's actually happening now is that Ford and Holden are importing mostly Asian parts to assemble here...

Originally Posted by vztrt

Or parts that are no longer made in Australia. It doesn't just come from China. The steering column (unless something changed) comes from Spain. The ICC screens come from Singapore. There are parts from Japan and the US. Then there is still stuff that is made here.

The only way you'd get 200,000 people in the local component industry is if you brought the current workforce here on 457 Visas and housed them in an asylum seeker camp.

[Struggo]

Originally Posted by Blue_XR

I think the interesting thing here is the actual volume of cars they are producing. When you look at the top selling car which is the Mazda 3 it is only selling 40,000 units per annum and that is the top selling car. Now compare that to the falcon and commodore in the early 2000's. As others have said, we are becoming the dumping ground of the world. Australian's have far more choice now. Small cars are loaded with features and people are buying what suits their needs.

Agree, its all about volume and its share of wallet (market share)

Surely our governments must be able to forecast a drop in revenue with all of the imported goods being dumped on our shores. The Australian government in is for a rude awakening in the coming years as its ability to generate an income decreases as we no longer produce anything.

Decreased Share of Wallet (Australian Market)

* Lower % of sales in auto industry - MMA & FoA Closure and all of its knock on effects.
* A lower % of produce produced (both fresh & packaged) in Australia now sits on our dinner plates - Famers walking off the land.
* Lower percentage of printed media - With a higher ratio of imported product in your shopping trolley, the print market is under fire and such local jobs and knowledge is happily being shifted offshore to increase margin $$$
* Closure of oil refineries – Higher fuel prices (added cost to business)

You could go on and on, however part, no most of the blame must be placed on successive governments whom have done little to provide a pathway to growth and subsequent protection for any Australian based industry, whether it be primary or secondary. Red tape, OH&S and the carbon tax have played a major part in the downfall of our various industries and subsequently our economy.

We need to be a nation that “Value Adds”, not just dig up dirt and ship it off shore.

Be prepared for Tax hikes.......

[westy73]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

You clearly aren't Australian in any way!! Neither a nice person I might add. How people losing their jobs could be good is beyond me!!

Not Australian ?? Because he has an opinion ?? Come on. People need to take a chill pill. If I agree with him does that make me un-Australian ? Is everything you think the only way to be Australian ??

This is a DEMOCRACY people on a Forum open for all to make comments on the web from the world. Sheesh. We need to stop being so judgemental on every little thing that everyone says.
Take it as his point of view and move on.

[westy73]

What I am sick of is people in Australia not standing up for what's right for Australians but continuously bending over and taking whatever is shoved up their a@ses from every other country. If our pollies had more balls then maybe just maybe our manufacturing would be thriving. So what if we get other countries noses out of joint because they can't just dump every goddamn thing they want here, for free, to the detriment of our own industries.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Cheap parts from overseas? How about one step further and bring workers from overseas. At least we will have an industry. Well America has the Mexicans to do their dirty work. Why can't we do the same and use asylum seeker, immigration detainee labour in return for refuge from their home countries. Just a bit of food their way, shelter, gated community and they would probably be churning out cars for half the price of Thai worker and with smiles in their faces knowing they had nothing to lose and any place is better than their country of origin. These workers will give local workers a few lessons in efficiency and productivity. The problem with our country is nobody wants to work, dollars come easy for minimal effort, living costs soar, and people then go and blow this money on that imported Hyundai, Mazda, etc. Screw political correctness and diplomacy, desperate times call for desperate measures.

So what your suggesting is to use 457 type labour, or in a clearer context, labour that is willing to put the current Aussie out of work by accepting less and forgoing all the rights and conditions that have been earned over the course of generations - the very things that make us Aussies and a developed nation ?
And these people who come from no technological background can teach our boys something ??
Being a public forum i cant exactly express what I think of your views, only other than saying its evident you have no idea and type quicker than you think !

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by vztrt

There is still sub assembly and work done here that cannot be shipped. Even with parts coming from o/s.

But nowhere near the "200,000 jobs at risk" figure that keeps being thrown around,
Ford learned its lesson with critical parts suppliers going belly up and stopping the line,
a few recent examples showed that Ford has progressively shifted those parts to more reliable suppliers.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by jpd80

But nowhere near the "200,000 jobs at risk" figure that keeps being thrown around,
Ford learned its lesson with critical parts suppliers going belly up and stopping the line,
a few recent examples showed that Ford has progressively shifted those parts to more reliable suppliers.

You might actually be surprised that the 'whole' car manufacturing industry in Australia, when including 1st 2nd 3rd tier suppliers and auxiliary manufacturer's and service providers, the figure would be very well close to 200,000

[borough]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holden are screwed. They massively overspent on the VF expecting a big increase in sales, and according to one Holden worker I know sales for the VF aren't doing very well. They made a huge gamble in spending so much on VF but it was never going to stop people buying small cars, SUV's and dual cab utes.

Hitting the nail of the head there Bossxr8. Large car sales peaked around the mid to late 1990's and have been going down ever since.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by fte50

You might actually be surprised that the 'whole' car manufacturing industry in Australia, when including 1st 2nd 3rd tier suppliers and auxiliary manufacturer's and service providers, the figure would be very well close to 200,000

Are you saying that for every worker making cars in Australia, there are another 20 workers supporting them?

[fte50]

No doubt Kiwi your trying to prove me wrong, but when considering EVERY aspect of the business, from the floor cleaner to the CEO, then the same for 1st 2nd 3rd tier suppliers, then multiply all that for their suppliers and providers, tooling support/supplies, accountants, designers, insurance providers, planners etc etc etc you get the drift.

[Bossxr8]

Component suppliers don't just make parts for Ford, Toyota and Holden, many of them make parts for other companies overseas as well. But many will not be able to survive once they lose their local business. So yes, 200,000 employed in the industry is feasible.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Component suppliers don't just make parts for Ford, Toyota and Holden, many of them make parts for other companies overseas as well. But many will not be able to survive once they lose their local business. So yes, 200,000 employed in the industry is feasible.

Just 1 of the points that many of the 'experts' who aren't employed in the industry fail to understand.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by fte50

No doubt Kiwi your trying to prove me wrong, but when considering EVERY aspect of the business, from the floor cleaner to the CEO, then the same for 1st 2nd 3rd tier suppliers, then multiply all that for their suppliers and providers, tooling support/supplies, accountants, designers, insurance providers, planners etc etc etc you get the drift.

I'm guessing that Hyundai, Mazda, Volkswagen, etc. don't employ anyone locally then?

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Component suppliers don't just make parts for Ford, Toyota and Holden, many of them make parts for other companies overseas as well. But many will not be able to survive once they lose their local business. So yes, 200,000 employed in the industry is feasible.

Many have... some survived, some didn't.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

I'm guessing that Hyundai, Mazda, Volkswagen, etc. don't employ anyone locally then?

Ur telling the story - what has this statement got to do with the topic on hand ??? Don't keep shifting the goal posts to credit your argument - stick to it or prove me wrong & stick it up me by substantiating your statements.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by fte50

Just 1 of the points that many of the 'experts' who aren't employed in the industry fail to understand.

There may be 200,000 total jobs in total industry but as Boss says, not all of those jobs are associated with OEM parts supply.
And in any case, I have a feeling that we will find out how many are actually affected in the next few years.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by fte50

Ur telling the story - what has this statement got to do with the topic on hand ??? Don't keep shifting the goal posts to credit your argument - stick to it or prove me wrong & stick it up me by substantiating your statements.

I thought you shifted the goalposts when you posted the following unsubstantiated comment?

Originally Posted by fte50

You might actually be surprised that the 'whole' car manufacturing industry in Australia, when including 1st 2nd 3rd tier suppliers and auxiliary manufacturer's and service providers, the figure would be very well close to 200,000

[jpd80]

Here you go, actual figures from March - LINK

Motor Vehicle and Parts Manufacturing 50,370

Automotive Repair and Maintenance 141,714

Motor Vehicle and Motor Vehicle Parts Retailing 93,401

Motor Vehicle and Motor Vehicle Parts Wholesaling 27,704



Total Manufacturing Employment 941,401

Motor Vehicle and Parts Manufacturing as a Percentage of Total Manufacturing 5.35%

[fte50]

Not all the jobs need to be associated with OEM parts supply - the problem is though when these manufacturers lose the auto supply component from their business, it no longer becomes viable to retain any form of manufacturing. Completely gone.
Auto affiliated manufacturing is the core of the majority of these companies, their whole investment/debt structure was set up around the 'security' of our car industry.

[KIWI-1]

Thanks jpd80.
Not quite the 200,000 and 20% Kim Carr mentioned today then.
The Export vs Domestic figures were interesting. What happened in 2008?

[jpd80]

On the strength of those figures I would now be prepared to say that 50,000 jobs are potentially at risk
but possibly 50% of those jobs are most likely with stronger suppliers with export contracts.


IIRC, in 2008 Toyota had massive exports to the Gulf states, Holden was exporting there as well as Pontiac G8 to USA

And then the GFC hit and the wheels fell off everything................Most of the export figures you see post 2008 are Camry.


BTW, I don't claim to be an expert....just well researched..

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by fte50

Not all the jobs need to be associated with OEM parts supply - the problem is though when these manufacturers lose the auto supply component from their business, it no longer becomes viable to retain any form of manufacturing. Completely gone.
Auto affiliated manufacturing is the core of the majority of these companies, their whole investment/debt structure was set up around the 'security' of our car industry.

Whilst it is true that some still rely on the 'security' of local assembly, the smart ones have restructured their businesses and moved on. For example our local newspaper ran a story about a local business who may loose 1 staff member when Ford stop production. They no longer rely on the 'security' of the local industry, components are a smaller part of their business and a Japanese manufacturer is their biggest component customer.

[Franco Cozzo]

Everything is going to be under pressure when the auto industry goes under, imagine Centrelink, they couldn't even manage dealing with one person, let alone 200,000 walk into their local office.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Are you saying that for every worker making cars in Australia, there are another 20 workers supporting them?

18 actually, and that's from inside knowledge.
You would be surprised how far it reaches down.
The mob I drove for had a contract delivering plastic parts for GMH to places like Futuris etc.
So a part as small as a vent had 20 people at the plastics supplier, the dozen working for the transporter, the receiver and his crew at Futuris, all before it got within 1k of the plant.

Truth is, it wouldn't matter if the Aussie dollar dropped to 0.50us, it wouldn't change things.
The decision to move offshore is shareholder driven, its far more profitable to build in Asia and ship here.
They want to build cars for slave wages and flog them to Aussies for top dollar.