Future Australian Manufacturing possibilities

[Hemihunter]

Originally Posted by au2000

Not wanting to make this a political thing but to say that Holden was going to stay long term in Australia is a pipe dream, nor labor or the lib's could stop them from closing,

Exactly right, Like we are only in debt for 200 gazillion dollars .............

[danzvtil]

Under the ATS scheme, parts makers were only breaking even. This is NOT a sustainable way to keep selected businesses running, it is a gross waste of public money.
If making parts here was worthwhile, why werent they sending huge volumes overseas ALREADY? Quite simply, we are too expensive when all of the parts manufacturers have set up in china or Thailand.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Small scale, niche vehicles and high quality.

I think something like a modern interpretation of a 70 series Lanadcruiser would do well being locally designed and built.

Word on the street Malcolm Turnbull when he met with Elon Musk a few weeks back in the US flagged the idea of building Teslas in the Toyota plant in Melbourne if he were to become PM.

You could be onto something with the 70-series idea.
Plenty of people used to say to buyers defending their choice of (foreign) car things like "Buy Australian made cars you traitor!", but what if there is no "Australian made car" to suit what people want and, more importantly, need?
We wanted a twin cab diesel ute...show me an Australian made one and we would probably have bought it if it was competitive on price. Same with every other four wheel drive (of all sorts) owner. There's literally nothing to be had.

IF it could be built to suit our needs here, and if they could keep the price competitive with foreign stuff, it would sell. However, price is important, as are features. You would have to fill it with thge standard features we have all come to expect, and price it sharply.

People won't buy out of pure flag-waving patriotism, and they generally are badge-blind, and have been for a long long time.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Under the ATS scheme, parts makers were only breaking even. This is NOT a sustainable way to keep selected businesses running, it is a gross waste of public money.
If making parts here was worthwhile, why werent they sending huge volumes overseas ALREADY? Quite simply, we are too expensive when all of the parts manufacturers have set up in china or Thailand.

It's not a waste of money when the jobs and money from wages circulating into the economy is factored in. Constrained by foreign ownership, companies, their (F, H, T) flexibility to innovate would not be as great as a new Australian-owned start-up, which could therefore find more paths to profitability.
One good legacy they're leaving behind is the investment and expertise given to the suppliers. While they can't compete on price with China, Thailand et al, we have a massive head start and expertise to create advanced, premium products which are one step ahead. The supplier industry deserves a good, new local car/truck maker to step in, and usher in a new era for Australian vehicles. England's car industry went to the brink, now look at them. It's just a shame the government chooses political expediency at the expense of long term opportunity.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

You could be onto something with the 70-series idea.
Plenty of people used to say to buyers defending their choice of (foreign) car things like "Buy Australian made cars you traitor!", but what if there is no "Australian made car" to suit what people want and, more importantly, need?
We wanted a twin cab diesel ute...show me an Australian made one and we would probably have bought it if it was competitive on price. Same with every other four wheel drive (of all sorts) owner. There's literally nothing to be had.

IF it could be built to suit our needs here, and if they could keep the price competitive with foreign stuff, it would sell. However, price is important, as are features. You would have to fill it with thge standard features we have all come to expect, and price it sharply.

People won't buy out of pure flag-waving patriotism, and they generally are badge-blind, and have been for a long long time.

Imagine if we got the diesel Barra Geoff Polites wanted. That would've been the basis for many a mining, commercial vehicle, stationary engine.
Would've made a world class Ranger and proud F series too.

[FalconXV]

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/busine...-1227259932088

Very interesting.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Imagine if we got the diesel Barra Geoff Polites wanted. That would've been the basis for many a mining, commercial vehicle, stationary engine.
Would've made a world class Ranger and proud F series too.

They do sell the I6 as a stationary engine. Converted to run on gas.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Imagine if we got the diesel Barra Geoff Polites wanted. That would've been the basis for many a mining, commercial vehicle, stationary engine.
Would've made a world class Ranger and proud F series too.

There was also an engineer/tuner mentioned on these forums who de-stroked the petrol to 3.6L, added turbo and got it to rev to 8+ thousand revs IIRC, imagine that as an option on an XR6!

There is a serious amount of inventor / engineer talent in this country, I've got the feeling any home grown maker might be spending time designing after hours, a bit like how Jaguar engineers designed the DOHC XK inline sixes in WW2...

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by mik

Going back to the car market seems to me to be a pipe dream , the car market is over represented with vehicles and the world is flooded with car makers all trying to make a buck and under cutting each other at every turn.

imo we would be better off pushing the technology of prefab modular housing that could be built super quickly and cheaply, imagine having rooms delivered and snapped together and all plumbing and electrics already done with snap together fittings to the slab, how good would that be , imagine ............ bare slab at 9 am , job done ......barby at mid day. .

Mik each manufacturing nation is propping up its own industry, favouring its own. Each wishes to keep the productive capacity, maybe even the "prestige". This is one reason for the flooding and overcapacity. We are unique in not seeming to care about this.

The pre-fab is a great idea, already ships are made in modular, fully fitted sections. There's a 3d 'printing' component being developed for making walls, etc, as well.

[danzvtil]

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2015...Q0I0Jk5uZT0xNQ..
words - Bruce Newton Start-up car company meeting with SA and federal governments
New Australian start-up car company Ethan Automotive is in Adelaide today and Canberra tomorrow pitching the case to government for taxpayer backing for its plan to build vehicles locally after the exit of Ford, Holden and Toyota.
The company's business plans revolve around building a medium SUV, a sedan and sports coupe off the same platform from late 2018 at a new plant in the Adelaide suburb of Edinburgh Parks with an annual production capacity around 30,000.
As reported yesterday, when and if the cars do make it to production they won't be branded Ethan, but will adopt either a retired globally-known name or a new name.
The business case developed by Ethan – a spin-off of the Ethan property developments group – forecasts a total investment of $1.5 billion would be needed to get the company up and sustainable.
Newly appointed Ethan Automotive chief operating officer Matthew Newey told motoring.com.au that total would eventually come from a combination of public funding and private equity investment, but he said the support of government would be crucial to a successful start-up.
"If the business case stacks up with respect to volume and pricing then there is a good business there," Newey said. "But it is going to take a lot of investment up-front.
"It is a start-up. We are looking for support from the government for start-up funding."
Newey said it would be crucial to get government onboard within months if Ethan was going to stick to its production timetable and launch to the public before the end of 2018.
"We need to resolve state and federal funding support for the project this year," he confirmed.
"I don't think there will be resolution [at this week's meetings]. For me it's about keeping up engagement with the state and federal governments, to give them access to the numbers we are working through and to view the business case.
"This is about giving them confidence in the business so that either state or federal government can get to the point where they can go 'we are now a believer or a supporter of this and this is how we can help from a financial perspective'."
Tuesday's meeting is with the South Australian department of premier and cabinet to review the proposed business case. The SA government is showing particular interest in the proposal because of the impact the closure of Holden's Elizabeth plant in late 2017 will have on the state's economy.
"I am hoping that by exposing and being open with respect to the business case and showing there is a significant business and significant value to South Australia that should then facilitate a conversation around funding and gaining access to that funding and the timing of that funding."
The meeting on Wednesday in Canberra is with the federal department of industry, which has invited Ethan to apply for Motor Vehicle Producer status within the Automotive Transformation Scheme (ATS) structure.
While that would open up some funding to Ethan, it is also campaigning to have the ATS extended beyond the end of 2017 to enable its suppliers to claim research and development benefits of up to 50 cents in the dollar back for work they do on its behalf.
"At the end of 2017 as the legislation stands today there won't be a motor vehicle producer in the country and therefore everyone's claims within ATS stops," explained Newey.
"So what we need to do is we need to qualify as an MVP and what that does is then allow access for those first tier suppliers to continue to claim post 2017 because there will be a vehicle producer in this country.
"We have some hurdles to get over with the federal government; how many vehicles are we going to produce? Can they give us MVP status on national interest based on the number of jobs they think we can bring in to South Australia or the wider economy?
"That is a discussion I need to have with the federal government on Wednesday."
Newey said he hoped the Abbott government would provide support despites its cutting of support to the multi-nationals Ford, Holden and Toyota that all pull out by the end of 2017.
"We would like to think the federal government would support this project," he said. "We would like to think a Liberal government would be interested in jobs in this country and we think we will bring a significant number of jobs via Ethan and the multiplier effect via different businesses that we think will support us.
"There is a significant number of heads – upwards of 6000 jobs created directly or indirectly by the Ethan business over the long term."

I haven't heard of anything so naive, the govt wont touch this with a 10 foot pole.

[Trump]

Big business and govco have effectively destroyed manufacturing in Australia. Small business involved in niche industries and markets may take up a very minute portion of the slack but the wholesale destruction of the productive economy doesn't bode well for the nation.

[Sprintey]

Indeed.

It won't change until policy favours production.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Indeed.

It won't change until policy favours production.

never truer words spoken.

[mik]

i dont know what the answer is, i just read an interesting article and i see absolute similarities to what has transpired/ is transpiring to our country.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...-manufacturing

i might open up another 2 dollar shop in a shopping plaza full of imported crap ..... at least i`ll be able to stop and have a latte at lunch time with the other 20 2 dollar shop owners .

[XR Martin]

I like how its quoted that the FTA with China is supposed to save the average houshold $5000 a year by 2035.
I already save that much as I dont buy $5k of chinese **** a year in the first place

[mik]

is it too late to un privatize some industry ??? probably.....
or could we influence the turkeys (decision makers) to change their minds about not building boats/navy ships here ?? if we could change their thinking on one single project, it might start a trend ???

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

I like how its quoted that the FTA with China is supposed to save the average houshold $5000 a year by 2035.
I already save that much as I dont buy $5k of chinese **** a year in the first place

You pull apart any Australian made car, or any manufactured product made in another country, and you will find parts that have originated in China. To another extent, you track that product back further, and you will most likely find that some of the raw materials originated in Australia.

You buy a $2 loaf of bread from Coles, and you will likely find that the truck that transported it to the shop had chinese parts, the equipment that made the bread had chinese parts, the factory where the bread was made had chinese parts.

[FalconXV]

This government is ideologically opposed to manufacturing cars here so fat chance with the funding. Nothing of that scale is going to get off the ground, its good the component sector is still working hard to justify its existence, but I don't see this one coming to pass if it relies on a cash injection by the Liberals.

We'll have to wait for 3D printing, because the passion is still there. :P But lets say we did set up a new carmarker- it'd have to be premium so that labour costs weren't a factor. and we'd have to target big export markets so we'd need a USP. I wouldn't say its impossible, on the contrary but not in the way that other carmakers have flourished ( with government assistance, and a heavy component sector). It'd need to be a new, lean, innovative way of building cars like Gordon Murray's iStream that's being used for TVR.

Or maybe more along the lines of Tesla. Again, even advanced manufacturing or any growth in the sector is just not going to happen under Abbott.

[Road_Warrior]

Well it would need to have a high volume, or high markups in order for it to be viable in this country. And if they're planning on making a sedan, then there is problem number one.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

This government is ideologically opposed to manufacturing cars here so fat chance with the funding. Nothing of that scale is going to get off the ground, its good the component sector is still working hard to justify its existence, but I don't see this one coming to pass if it relies on a cash injection by the Liberals.

Or maybe more along the lines of Tesla. Again, even advanced manufacturing or any growth in the sector is just not going to happen under Abbott.

You cant quote Tesla, and then also put some sort of blame on Abbott. Ethan motors is nothing like Tesla. Elon Musk put a great deal of his own money on the line by trying to set up Tesla, and even to this day, the company barely makes money as it is heavily reliant on green rebates from various states. There has been no disclosures on what sort of money Ethan Motors will invest. By all indications, the business is simply reliant on a lot of government money. Holden got a lot of government money to make a car called the cruze that was already being made in other countries, yet that hasn't come off as a great long term investment. I dare say all the people who want the government to put money into this venture, will not be putting their own money into it, when they seek private equity.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by mik

is it too late to un privatize some industry ??? probably.....
or could we influence the turkeys (decision makers) to change their minds about not building boats/navy ships here ?? if we could change their thinking on one single project, it might start a trend ???

Wishful thinking but it will take a lot more than that to stop the rot.
The number one killer of progress in AU is red tape and overzealous OH&S costings. Sure we need safety in the work place but the horror stories I hear and have to deal with as a project manager (even in IT it is ridiculous) just make it a waste of time and money. Many projects are abandoned because of the cost to just assess them outweighs any benefits.

If Australia is serious about an investment and industry revolution then they need to get serious about attracting it here. Cut the costs and red tape associated with business. You don't need to abandon quality or safety, you just need some common sense. Encourage people to get back to work and encourage business investment, it'll bring growth.

Additionally the general workforce attitude needs to change. There seems to be a sense of entitlement, no matter how good the salary is people want more and more for doing no more work. The amount of reasons I have seen from people as to why they deserve a 10%+ payrise, they should re read their job description. Pride in work isn't a priority anymore and it shows in the quality of some of the products. Australians are generally smart people and that has shown in the past, but in the past 5 - 10 years the skillset has slipped, it is very disappointing. The quality vs cost just doesn't balance.

I'd like to see us bounce back, manufacturing, engineering, farming, science, etc. We just need governments, companies and workers to work together for the future, it would benefit each one. We need to get out of the us vs them mentality.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Wishful thinking but it will take a lot more than that to stop the rot.
The number one killer of progress in AU is red tape and overzealous OH&S costings. Sure we need safety in the work place but the horror stories I hear and have to deal with as a project manager (even in IT it is ridiculous) just make it a waste of time and money. Many projects are abandoned because of the cost to just assess them outweighs any benefits.

If Australia is serious about an investment and industry revolution then they need to get serious about attracting it here. Cut the costs and red tape associated with business. You don't need to abandon quality or safety, you just need some common sense. Encourage people to get back to work and encourage business investment, it'll bring growth.

Additionally the general workforce attitude needs to change. There seems to be a sense of entitlement, no matter how good the salary is people want more and more for doing no more work. The amount of reasons I have seen from people as to why they deserve a 10%+ payrise, they should re read their job description. Pride in work isn't a priority anymore and it shows in the quality of some of the products. Australians are generally smart people and that has shown in the past, but in the past 5 - 10 years the skillset has slipped, it is very disappointing. The quality vs cost just doesn't balance.

I'd like to see us bounce back, manufacturing, engineering, farming, science, etc. We just need governments, companies and workers to work together for the future, it would benefit each one. We need to get out of the us vs them mentality.

All good points, particularly about entitlement.

[Brazen]

I think Australia is in a box seat to turn around the production of things, but we probably need to focus on segments where we are some of the biggest purchases in the world, like large offroad 4wds, performance sedans and dual cab Utes.

Look at England, phenomenal turnaround in manufacturing there which has led to the creation of tens of thousands of jobs and big economic increases, purely due to the government deciding it wants things built there.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Additionally the general workforce attitude needs to change. There seems to be a sense of entitlement, no matter how good the salary is people want more and more for doing no more work. The amount of reasons I have seen from people as to why they deserve a 10%+ payrise, they should re read their job description. Pride in work isn't a priority anymore and it shows in the quality of some of the products. Australians are generally smart people and that has shown in the past, but in the past 5 - 10 years the skillset has slipped, it is very disappointing. The quality vs cost just doesn't balance.

As you work in IT, don't be quick to judge the rest of the workforce. iT has struggles with people and its not just Australia.

I'm in engineering and construction and working with global offices, in my opinion Australians are probably the most productive and invested in their work. In Thailand we would honestly have staff simply not show up for a few days with no explanation and they are hugely into seniority of age - so the older workers just coast as they just need to put in the years. The younger workers know they won't be promoted as there are employees who have been there longer so they don't put in the effort as well.

I haven't worked in Japan, but people I know who have say its all about appearance. A job that will take an Australian a few hours would take a Japanese person 10 as there is a big emphasis put on the hours worked. Some Japanese would literally sit at their desks with nothing on till late at night as it looks bad to leave early.

Australia has a lot of problems and it can be expensive here, but don't knock the quality of worker here, they can be really good. Overall though the differences between countries arnt huge, we all want to feel proud about the work we do - no matter who you are.

Maybe one of the benefits of a country with such big mortgages and personal debt people want to work and keep their jobs!

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Brazen

As you work in IT, don't be quick to judge the rest of the workforce. iT has struggles with people and its not just Australia.

I'm in engineering and construction and working with global offices, in my opinion Australians are probably the most productive and invested in their work. In Thailand we would honestly have staff simply not show up for a few days with no explanation and they are hugely into seniority of age - so the older workers just coast as they just need to put in the years. The younger workers know they won't be promoted as there are employees who have been there longer so they don't put in the effort as well.

I haven't worked in Japan, but people I know who have say its all about appearance. A job that will take an Australian a few hours would take a Japanese person 10 as there is a big emphasis put on the hours worked. Some Japanese would literally sit at their desks with nothing on till late at night as it looks bad to leave early.

Australia has a lot of problems and it can be expensive here, but don't knock the quality of worker here, they can be really good. Overall though the differences between countries arnt huge, we all want to feel proud about the work we do - no matter who you are.

Maybe one of the benefits of a country with such big mortgages and personal debt people want to work and keep their jobs!

Quality of work here can be really good.

But mainly it is just rubbish now, there is a big problem with the she will be right bozo attitude and just greed driven sub human rat bags everywhere, who don't have any fair dinkum moral compasses at all.

It mainly got pushed from the big building boom on, that things went to hell, from what I have seen, all the yobbos started doing work the fools way and builders seen that it could be done that way and get away with such rubbish, years ago such a one would be punched out and tossed out on the street directly for doing such moronic rubbish.

If I was to point out that something is not correct before I start my job, that should be rectified before I start my job, I am informed that they do not care at all and to just start the job regardless or else they will try to destroy my reputation and business and the thing is, I don't have a leg to stand on with people like that nowadays. the job must be finished by X date as well.

It is now just a mongrel 3rd rate backward society that we now have and everything has gravitated to the lowest common denominator as 'the standard', regardless of what you want to talk about, it's all upside down nowadays and the Dregs Rule this nation now and they rule like Nazis, pushing others around and threating others lively hoods, if they don't tow their New Age simpleton deranged line.

I am not even allowed to quote Builders jobs anymore, as you just cop what they think they are happy to pay.

So I got out of that business and they ring me now, with things that they can't find people who have the skill to do such, they have to import people in now to do that, because they have destroyed the industry with their short sighted narrow minded grubby derelict filthy ways.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Brazen

As you work in IT, don't be quick to judge the rest of the workforce. iT has struggles with people and its not just Australia.

I'm in engineering and construction and working with global offices, in my opinion Australians are probably the most productive and invested in their work. In Thailand we would honestly have staff simply not show up for a few days with no explanation and they are hugely into seniority of age - so the older workers just coast as they just need to put in the years. The younger workers know they won't be promoted as there are employees who have been there longer so they don't put in the effort as well.

I haven't worked in Japan, but people I know who have say its all about appearance. A job that will take an Australian a few hours would take a Japanese person 10 as there is a big emphasis put on the hours worked. Some Japanese would literally sit at their desks with nothing on till late at night as it looks bad to leave early.

Australia has a lot of problems and it can be expensive here, but don't knock the quality of worker here, they can be really good. Overall though the differences between countries arnt huge, we all want to feel proud about the work we do - no matter who you are.

Maybe one of the benefits of a country with such big mortgages and personal debt people want to work and keep their jobs!

I'm not saying everyone is like this but the general attitude in the workforce leans towards the old "enough to pass" and nothing more.

The building industry, one where you would hope and expect quality, it just isn't there. I have had numerous people stressed because their houses are late due to poor workmanship at the foundation layer (cracked pipes, pipes not being laid to a standard depth), brickwork very sloppy and visually seen to be poor, various interior issues as well. I have even known one family who were on the final plan of their house and were about to sign off on it and then happened to notice a change made where each room would have had a manhole in the ceiling.

It's all about chasing the $$ and not delivering on quality. It isn't one level of employee, some places the rot starts at the top and goes down. That's what I am trying to say, attitudes here need to change if we're to succeed. Keep the status quo at your own peril.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I think Australia is in a box seat to turn around the production of things, but we probably need to focus on segments where we are some of the biggest purchases in the world, like large offroad 4wds, performance sedans and dual cab Utes.

Look at England, phenomenal turnaround in manufacturing there which has led to the creation of tens of thousands of jobs and big economic increases, purely due to the government deciding it wants things built there.

Theres your problem ................ the powers that be do not want us building stuff here......
if they really did want us building stuff here , you would be sick to death of hearing the decision makers saying " BUY AUSTRALIAN " at every opportunity.
when was the last time you heard a single murmur in the news from a decision maker saying we must buy Australian to help the country ?
Answer , a bloody long time ago.

[CyberWasp]

As others have said it all goes back to the Lima Declaration of 1975.
The people of Australia have never been the #1 priority of any government since.

[Express]

The first problem is to find a solution to overcome the biggest obstacle of all - Aussies don’t buy Australian.

Aussies have an inferiority complex and a built in conceived notion that imported products offer better pricing, quality, innovation and status.

[Franco Cozzo]

Future of Australian manufacturing? I dunno but I've seen this thing in the flesh being designed and tuned since late 2012:



The guy built it from the ground up from nothing in a tiny workshop in the New Gisborne industrial estate, it meets Euro V emissions regulations while making 700hp and doing 0-100 in 2.6 seconds from a stroked and twin supercharged Honda K24, its 100% road legal in Australia as it meets all the ADRs required.

http://www.motormag.com.au/news/1506...as-ariel-atom/

The last time I saw it was towards the end of its development:



The dude used to annoy everyone on Ladd Rd in the industrial estate running this thing up on the dyno all the damn time.

http://quantumpv.com.au/

No, its not an Aerial Atom.

We've got dudes like this in our country who can build a car in a tiny workshop which meet current emissions regulations and ADRs, I'm sure we can still make cars in some form or another.