Luxury cars have become terribly common, potentially expensive

[Express]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

I guess you own an an X5 ? Didn't think so :-)
Reality is generally between the two extremes. Big $$ euros out of warranty can be financial liability . Fault finding complex electronic / mechanical systems cost time , equipment and ultimately money.
Why do you think there are specialist euro brands mechanics if anyone can fix them through Magic of Internet ?
Once geartronic or DSG packs up, there are not many options and they are all costly . Not to mention bmw plastic cooling systems .
Nice cars when they work but upkeep cost more on average than local or Japanese car.

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

First you need to know which part(s) - trouble shooting is the hard part of the equation :-)

Euros aren’t some secret society were only the privileged are in the know.

Ask a question on the Forums like you would here and you’ll get an answer.

The difference is the forums are much bigger than say this one because the Euros have world membership.

A USA forum will have members from all around the globe and many are very knowledgeable people plus employees from the manufacturers hang out there as well.

Most things that go wrong with a Euro are not any different than what goes wrong with other makes.

You can just as easily have a niggling hard to diagnose problem with a Ford as you can with a German car.

Local repairs who look after Euros know the ins and outs, use them if you can’t figure out what repairs your car needs, they can also source the parts and do the fix.

The old Euro mystery comes from the days when the only way to search info was on foot or by a phone directory, the world has moved on and the brands are now global and so is the info for them.

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

If the local Euro dealers don't adapt soon, they will be extinct as the new parts paradigm will capture the entire market (yes, even the really well to do set). How they (BMW dealers) can justify $253 p/h as their labour rate I have no idea.

They can charge that rate as they invested into specialized training and equipment that enables them to work on cars that others can not.
Dealers would service most late model cars still under warranty as they have support and training from manufacturer - as cars age most owners migrate to independent repairers or trade in on a new model.

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by cheap

Often hear about people picking up a "bargain" 5 year old luxury/sports Euro cars. Original sticker price +$200,000, they paid $70,000. Or the original owners who hold to their luxury drives beyond the 3-5 year warranty. They soon realise that spare parts and maintenance are priced commensurate to a +$200,000 car. This is the trap that awaits many.

I recently (4 weeks ago) purchased an Audi A5 Cabriolet with 40k on the clock for high 40's drive away. Original sticker price including 20 inch rims, $128k

Am in the market for a CLS500 and you regularly see 5 year old examples at around $70-$80k mark, original cost around $225k

[mik]

Originally Posted by xxx000

it shows just how wealthy we really are overall despite the gloom and doom talk by some politicians and some media

Either that or we have a lot more people putting themselves in hock up to the eyeballs.
My mate told me a while ago how his pregnant unemployed daughter rocked up to a car yard by herself and signed up for a brand new small car and got it while on the dole .

Years ago if you went for a loan or to buy a car without employment or at least a deposit or collateral or your father's signature(if he would give it) as a guarantor it would be please come back later....... Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by Express

Euros aren’t some secret society were only the privileged are in the know.

Ask a question on the Forums like you would here and you’ll get an answer.

Umm hell no. The BMW forums that I have perused are full to the brim with members who have a disgusting attitude of elitism and superiority. Asking a question like someone might ask here will result in one of two things 95% of the time: zero replies to a thread or one loaded with "do a search cawkhead" or "if you can't afford to take the car to a dealer you shouldn't own a BMW". The attitude disgusts me.

I no longer own a Ford but I still stick around as the membership by and large is composed of non-elitist snobs.

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by Express

Euros aren’t some secret society were only the privileged are in the know.

Ask a question on the Forums like you would here and you’ll get an answer.

The difference is the forums are much bigger than say this one because the Euros have world membership.

A USA forum will have members from all around the globe and many are very knowledgeable people plus employees from the manufacturers hang out there as well.

Most things that go wrong with a Euro are not any different than what goes wrong with other makes.

You can just as easily have a niggling hard to diagnose problem with a Ford as you can with a German car.

Local repairs who look after Euros know the ins and outs, use them if you can’t figure out what repairs your car needs, they can also source the parts and do the fix.

The old Euro mystery comes from the days when the only way to search info was on foot or by a phone directory, the world has moved on and the brands are now global and so is the info for them.

There is no euro mystery , fact is those cars are significantly more complex in their design and execution . Euro cars are not easy to work on .
For mechanically minded masochistic enthusiast who has got a spare car to drive while researching forums and ordering parts from overseas I would say yes , otherwise stay clear for average turn key owner :-)

[new2ford]

I haven't found a snob factor browsing BMW forums, especially among those owning the older collectors cars, just like car enthusiasts anywhere. But I have to say this forum is just unbeatable as a car forum. Well done Russell and others!

I'd still urge some caution with Euros though. The reliability surveys tend to have the Japanese up the top end and the luxury Euros lower down the list. The only two Euros regularly in the top ten over a period of years are Skoda and Ford Europe. Just a matter of choosing wisely and being on the ball. The reward side is a beautifully outfitted practical car with top performance and fuel economy.

Some of the luxury Euros have put some effort into improving their game. But VW and Audi I wouldn't touch with a long pole. If you want one of those, buy a Skoda. (I think Skoda actually build Audis in one of their factories - I'd go for those!)

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Umm hell no. The BMW forums that I have perused are full to the brim with members who have a disgusting attitude of elitism and superiority. Asking a question like someone might ask here will result in one of two things 95% of the time: zero replies to a thread or one loaded with "do a search cawkhead" or "if you can't afford to take the car to a dealer you shouldn't own a BMW". The attitude disgusts me.

I no longer own a Ford but I still stick around as the membership by and large is composed of non-elitist snobs.

I’ve seen that train take off on forums for the local cars as well where some members are quick with the “do a search” line.

I can’t say I’ve suffered the problem myself as I do tend to search a subject first and if I have further questions I post it in the most suitable existing thread I’ve found.

Forum courtesy is a two way street.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

They can charge that rate as they invested into specialized training and equipment that enables them to work on cars that others can not.
Dealers would service most late model cars still under warranty as they have support and training from manufacturer - as cars age most owners migrate to independent repairers or trade in on a new model.

No they charge what they do because they can. No one made the luxury makes open up glam showrooms in Fortitude Valley, but they're all there sitting on expensive real estate paying God knows how much in rent, which the buyer is paying for.

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

There is no euro mystery , fact is those cars are significantly more complex in their design and execution . Euro cars are not easy to work on .
For mechanically minded masochistic enthusiast who has got a spare car to drive while researching forums and ordering parts from overseas I would say yes , otherwise stay clear for average turn key owner :-)

Almost all mechanical products with circuit boards and processors become more complex as they evolve.

The manufacturers that put them into production also teach and document how to fault find and repair.

Manufacturers make sure their authorised repairers evolve with them and that knowledge flows into the mainstream industry.

You aren’t honestly saying some Japanese, Asian, UK and American cars aren’t complex in their design and construction.

The average owner is not a mechanic, they take their vehicles to someone who is and if they are concerned about the cost they find independent repairers.

The same applies to owners of cheaper or less complex cars who are looking for lower cost service options.

[GasoLane]

As others have said if you use an Independent Euro garage prices are pretty much the same as 'normal' cars.

I'm lucky in as much as the place I use have been working on Benz's for about 30 years and have most of the factory electronic gear.

As Express mentioned they also source parts from the people he posted. However if I source the parts (if I think I can get them cheaper) they happily fit them.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by Spammy

How is that Beta video recorder going? Did you see Ansett have a special on flights Syd/melb this week...only $999 return ?

Good one Spammy. Yep I did indeed have a Betacord video recorder. The picture was superior to VHS and there was room on the tape for stereo sound. The story goes that the reason VHS took off in the market is that porn videos were made on VHS and not Beta.

I flew Ansett a few times in the late 60s, but TAA had better looking sheilas.

Sheilas? Now there's a term you don't hear about these dazes.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

There is no euro mystery , fact is those cars are significantly more complex in their design and execution . Euro cars are not easy to work on .
For mechanically minded masochistic enthusiast who has got a spare car to drive while researching forums and ordering parts from overseas I would say yes , otherwise stay clear for average turn key owner :-)

No car is easy to work on anymore really, gives me the ***** the way a lot of stuff is designed.

The benefits dealerships have is that they will be doing work on all their new products, so they only work on a small amount of models but they work on them so often they know everything there is to know, all the little tips and tricks to get stuff done easily.

Originally Posted by Cav

Good one Spammy. Yep I did indeed have a Betacord video recorder. The picture was superior to VHS and there was room on the tape for stereo sound. The story goes that the reason VHS took off in the market is that porn videos were made on VHS and not Beta.

I flew Ansett a few times in the late 60s, but TAA had better looking sheilas.

Sheilas? Now there's a term you don't hear about these dazes.

I'm pretty sure thats actually correct, the porn industry had a huge sway in the format wars of the 1980s.

If not I say we re-write history and put in that they were the reason, for lols.

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

Almost all mechanical products with circuit boards and processors become more complex as they evolve.

The manufacturers that put them into production also teach and document how to fault find and repair.

Manufacturers make sure their authorised repairers evolve with them and that knowledge flows into the mainstream industry.

You aren’t honestly saying some Japanese, Asian, UK and American cars aren’t complex in their design and construction.


The average owner is not a mechanic, they take their vehicles to someone who is and if they are concerned about the cost they find independent repairers.

The same applies to owners of cheaper or less complex cars who are looking for lower cost service options.

Yes , Mercedes and other Euro manufacturers are more complex - which Japanese car from 2003 has brake by wire , swiweling headlights , air suspension ,seats that are ventilated and change contour based on your driving , two batteries (one under bonnet and one in the boot ) , radar distance control etc .
That is just W211 E class (some of the equipment optional) . To their credit they realised their increased complexity is costing them $$ and since embarked on simplification of their platforms.
Take a twincharged VW engine , since discontinued due to cost and complexity.
Which company produces supercharged and turbocharged engine in 25k market combined with DSG transmission . Mazda just uses NA 2.0 or 2.5l for simplicity.
Germany is a country with excellent engineering capabilities and they build complex cars to showcase it. High complexity leads to low reliability - more things to go wrong as they say .

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

....I'm pretty sure thats actually correct, the porn industry had a huge sway in the format wars of the 1980s.

If not I say we re-write history and put in that they were the reason, for lols.

You have a disturbing amount of knowledge of this industry Damo

[new2ford]

Or as my German Quality Engineer friend says, the Germans are very good at producing expensive junk.

[Iggle Piggle]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Or as my German Quality Engineer friend says, the Germans are very good at producing expensive junk.

Still talking about porn, yeah?

[jpblue1000]

Only last week I replaced the CV's on mums S40 Volvo. First time they've been done in 325,000 km's and only one was knocking. Cost her dinner and about $450. She is also still on the factory original shock absorbers, bushes and steering rack, I think the oil and windscreen washer water has been replaced since new however, damn unreliable euros.
And Still drives like new, without a clunk never had anything wrong with it but was always serviced at an independent volvo expert mechanic
Only complaint is the leather has hardened with age and begun to crack along some seams.

JP

[Brazen]

I can see the appeal for the new base Germans.

They are now starting to come fully loaded as standard - xenons, sat nav, autonomous braking etc. loads of power (for the engine size) and great fuel economy.

They drive beautifully too, sure not as big as a Falcon or Commodore, but still have 5 seats so really no less versatile.

Most people qualify for corporate package which is free servicing for 3 years, coupled with half decent resale, great fuel economy and cheap finance deals. Really cost of ownership isn't that much more than a run of the mill car.

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Only last week I replaced the CV's on mums S40 Volvo. First time they've been done in 325,000 km's and only one was knocking. Cost her dinner and about $450. She is also still on the factory original shock absorbers, bushes and steering rack, I think the oil and windscreen washer water has been replaced since new however, damn unreliable euros.
And Still drives like new, without a clunk never had anything wrong with it but was always serviced at an independent volvo expert mechanic
Only complaint is the leather has hardened with age and begun to crack along some seams.

JP

They are pretty good , Mitsubishis ( I assume it is built before 2005 based on mileage) :-)

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

Yes , Mercedes and other Euro manufacturers are more complex - which Japanese car from 2003 has brake by wire , swiweling headlights , air suspension ,seats that are ventilated and change contour based on your driving , two batteries (one under bonnet and one in the boot ) , radar distance control etc .
That is just W211 E class (some of the equipment optional) . To their credit they realised their increased complexity is costing them $$ and since embarked on simplification of their platforms.
Take a twincharged VW engine , since discontinued due to cost and complexity.
Which company produces supercharged and turbocharged engine in 25k market combined with DSG transmission . Mazda just uses NA 2.0 or 2.5l for simplicity.
Germany is a country with excellent engineering capabilities and they build complex cars to showcase it. High complexity leads to low reliability - more things to go wrong as they say .

I can’t argue that Euros tend to be market innovators but their tech does filter down into other brands and other brands are definitely complex when you use vehicle evolution as the benchmark.

I know firsthand the effort a manufacturer puts into service capabilities during the R&D stage of design and what one repairer may find complex the next may not.

Whether more tech means more things can go wrong well that’s debatable.

That is more a problem of manufacturing standards than a design or complexity issue.

For example consumer electronics has advanced a long way in the last 30 years and if you plucked a technician from the 1980 to work on today’s televisions they would struggle but repairers evolve with the product and so do repair techniques and televisions are no less likely to fail today than they did yesterday yet they are far more complex.

Fault finding today is also a very different animal, isolating a problem and replacing an IC, capacitor or transistor is a thing of the past, now it’s rip out the circuit board, the module or whatever and replace the whole thing.

Cars have taken a similar repair path.

As tech becomes cheap it becomes a candidate to find its way into cheaper cars, if inclusion of that cheaper tech means more expense in the manufacturing process than a decision is made based on projected sales due to that tech versus profit and loss.

Manufacturing it a mass of complex business decisions and where a manufacturer stands in the scheme of things is solely based on how they intend to derive a profit.

Do you want to sell high end audio or a K-Mart special boom box, the manufacturing and business principals aren’t that different but they are definitely polar opposites in design and there is definitely a market for both.

Cars are the same but just because some are a higher end product it doesn’t mean they are more prone to failure.

That’s just a furphy.

All poorly designed or built product will have a high failure rate and all product no matter how good its manufacturing processes are will also have a percentage of failure.

To what degree is often clouded in the public arena because you hear of failures not success, you hear of a friend of a friends problem when someone is arguing or justifying their purchase against another brand, you can get the drift of what I’m saying here.

By the way some GM products have magnetic adjustable suspension, ventilated seats and similar based tech to what you’ve mentioned.

Lexus is Japanese and competing in the higher end.

And massed produced Asian cars which are chasing high volume profits may be slower to pick up on some innovation to save costs but they are quick to add them if their customers starts showing signs they want it too.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

Still talking about porn, yeah?

You wouldn't want to know what's on TV in Germany after midnight, it makes SBS look tame! Very good for keeping abreast of matters

[Trump]

Originally Posted by new2ford

You wouldn't want to know what's on TV in Germany after midnight, it makes SBS look tame! Very good for keeping abreast of matters

I see what you did there

[Taily]

All good points and something that is not solely a Euro only issue, but that still doesn't address the fact that items such as $1100.00 (and that was trade!) drivers window regulators, $1400 BCM, $700 load sensing headlights (can't use the standard Euro parts as they are set up to suit driving on the other side of the road), new cylinder heads at greater than $4000.00 each (no, not a misprint)!

And that was just my exerience with an R32 I decided to keep after the new car warranty ran out. All those prices are trade as I am a licenced mechanic with an ABN, even though I no longer work in the industry. I could have bought bits from a wrecker/second hand with a couple of the items but wondered just how much life thse items would have had left in them.

I've heard people lament the cost of US built stuff too as when RHD specific stuff fails it gets real expensive real quick.

Yeah, owning a 5-10 year old Euro is a 'bargain' amd keeping a good mechanic 'near and dear' is a great idea but believe me the ongoing cost of some parts will be seriously eye watering for many people. Besides, much of these techy bits fail often. Anyone remember just how many billions of dollars their DSG debacle cost VW internationally? All because it was rushed through and built by the lowest cost sharing bidder. It almost brought the VW division to its knees financially.

There is much truth to the saying 'There is no such thing as a free lunch'... The vehicles are built to last the warranty period and anything after that is a (very big!) bonus! The hard thing in future to work out is which (lesser) evil a used purchaser will go for...

[XG_Falcon]

It's pretty simple, if you want the best sedan money can buy, you get a German car (and pay a bit extra for that over-engineering quality that goes into building those cars). If you don't want to spend that bit extra, you obviously can't have the best but maybe you can get a cheaper Japanese, Korean or Australian car... which will do the job of being a car just fine.

It depends on the person because everybody wants different things.

[blueoval]

Nothing wrong with jap cars. My Subaru has been excellent

[Trump]

Despite the high price tags, an excursion through the BeeEmm and Merc dealerships today to me has shown up the 3 series and C-class entry level models to be nothing more than tarted up buzzboxes.

There is no way in hell BMW can justify the $66k drive away price for a 320i. Yes it is fitted with a lot of fruit, but the interior lacks that quality feel one would expect for such an outlay. But it makes much more sense when you check US pricing, the same 320i we were looking at to replace the missus car can be had for US$33k driveaway (approx AUD$41k at current rates).
However it was the driving experience was the deal breaker for us. Whilst nothing inherently wrong or bad about it, it left both of us feeling rather copious amounts of meh. It didn't feel solid, it didn't feel agile, nor did it feel inspiring. In comparison to my eight year old 530i, the difference is night and day. The older car outclasses it in every possible metric.

The Merc camp fared only slightly better during the drive (C250 petrol), the interior was marginally better (both in equipment levels and quality of materials) as compared to the 320i, felt a bit more spirited during acceleration and held a better line through corners. If it were a $40-45k proposition, I'd have pulled the trigger on one. But when the stooge at the dealer said $73k was the best he could do, I bid him a good day.

One thing I noticed with both cars is the quality of the leather. A VF SSV has better leather than either car. The leather in both cars felt cheap and thin. The 530i has been trimmed with a very good quality hide and covers all seat and door trim surfaces.

We're going to check out Skoda tomorrow. Having spent much time in Europe, I still find myself subconsciously shuddering at the mere mention of the name (so many horror stories ). But having driven an Octavia RS some time ago and walking away impressed, they are getting a look in.

[Sabantien]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

We're going to check out Skoda tomorrow. Having spent much time in Europe, I still find myself subconsciously shuddering at the mere mention of the name (so many horror stories ). But having driven an Octavia RS some time ago and walking away impressed, they are getting a look in.

Isn't the Octavia a VW Passat? VW something anyhow. Checked out both when I was hunting for a new car. Seemed much the same, just stripped of bells and whistles, with a cheaper interior (the one Iooked at anyhow).

That said, it still seemed quite nice. If it wasn't hail damaged I might have gone for it.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by Sabantien

Isn't the Octavia a VW Passat? VW something anyhow. Checked out both when I was hunting for a new car. Seemed much the same, just stripped of bells and whistles, with a cheaper interior (the one Iooked at anyhow).

That said, it still seemed quite nice. If it wasn't hail damaged I might have gone for it.

Essentially. Volkswagen are the owners and they provide the warranty in Australia (3 years/unlimited km, 12 year/unlimited km corrosion warranty).

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Despite the high price tags, an excursion through the BeeEmm and Merc dealerships today to me has shown up the 3 series and C-class entry level models to be nothing more than tarted up buzzboxes.

There is no way in hell BMW can justify the $66k drive away price for a 320i. Yes it is fitted with a lot of fruit, but the interior lacks that quality feel one would expect for such an outlay. But it makes much more sense when you check US pricing, the same 320i we were looking at to replace the missus car can be had for US$33k driveaway (approx AUD$41k at current rates).
However it was the driving experience was the deal breaker for us. Whilst nothing inherently wrong or bad about it, it left both of us feeling rather copious amounts of meh. It didn't feel solid, it didn't feel agile, nor did it feel inspiring. In comparison to my eight year old 530i, the difference is night and day. The older car outclasses it in every possible metric.

The Merc camp fared only slightly better during the drive (C250 petrol), the interior was marginally better (both in equipment levels and quality of materials) as compared to the 320i, felt a bit more spirited during acceleration and held a better line through corners. If it were a $40-45k proposition, I'd have pulled the trigger on one. But when the stooge at the dealer said $73k was the best he could do, I bid him a good day.

One thing I noticed with both cars is the quality of the leather. A VF SSV has better leather than either car. The leather in both cars felt cheap and thin. The 530i has been trimmed with a very good quality hide and covers all seat and door trim surfaces.

We're going to check out Skoda tomorrow. Having spent much time in Europe, I still find myself subconsciously shuddering at the mere mention of the name (so many horror stories ). But having driven an Octavia RS some time ago and walking away impressed, they are getting a look in.

Interesting you say that. How you view the latest 3series/C class compared to your plastic fantastic 5 Series, I view the E60 the same as when compared to the awesome E39 & E34.
It mut be pointed out that there is nothing exclusive about a 3series or C Class, they are nothing more than a German Mazda 6. their base model spec in the current and past series and Euro/US price tag reflects this.