How to Ressurect the Australian Car

[FalconXV]

such optimism...

[98TLS]

Originally Posted by b0son

If you want viable manufacturing of any sort, you need exports, but no one takes us seriously. Australia is probably viewed by US/Europe as we view NZ, nice place for a holiday, but not much else.

ya think? With the weather over your side of the ditch be the last place a kiwi wants to go for a holiday.As for another Aussie car sooner or later your country like ours will be full of people prepared to work for sfa and so will follow another Aussie car or at least Aus assembled.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

such optimism...

More like realism.

If dumerey couldn't make Elizabeth work, even with Holden "giving" him the zeta platform for free (Fun fact-would NEVER have happened) then no one will.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

http://performancedrive.com.au/edito...lian-car-1200/

Does anyone think there's any possibility we'll see another Aussie car in some form or another? I sure hope so

Simple answer, no.
Long answer, not really, not unless we manufacture a vehicle that can be exported from day 1, to LHD and RHD markets.
In addition I don't believe it would be of a mass produced scale either, more a niche vehicle, something that people would be willing to pay for that they cannot get from another already established manufacturer.

The difficulties will be:

• Finding a niche product that doesn't already exist
• Finding a market for it
• Pricing it so that it can sell and make profit, so it is viable
• After sales support? Who?
• Drive-train, use one from another make or establish a new one?

I cannot see it happening, especially here in Australia, too smaller a market, too far away from everyone to make export cheap and worthwhile for such a flooded market, and to setup would require massive amounts of capital for a very low return.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Bill M

This business supplies the heavy hitters in the trucking manufacturing segment. It is a large concern. http://www.hiltonmanufacturing.com.au/

They make Fuel Tanks. approx 25,000 tanks a year

[78xcgxl]

It's funny how read about all the articles about manufacturing closing down and people loosing their jobs and you just kinder accept it as that's the way it is. If that makes any sense. After recently working at the Toyota Altona plant doing electrical maintenance work it really hits you hard seeing it in person. Seeing all these people who are about to loose their job. The working conditions are great, safety is paramount and behind the security gates, it is like a small community that has all the necessities you could want. It is truly is sad seeing good Australian jobs and industry finishing.

The Electrical company i work for has being doing work at the Toyota plant for decades and goes to show how massive the flow on effects are with manufacturing industries closing.

It is an absolute disgrace that the Australian government let this happen. The removal of tariffs and free trade agreements has done nothing but make the industry unsustainable and unable to compete on a level playing field.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by 78xcgxl

The removal of tariffs and free trade agreements has done nothing but make the industry unsustainable and unable to compete on a level playing field.

And wages up to double the award have no impact? If wages can go up when an industry is doing well, they should also be able to go down when its not. For everyone not willing to work for less (but still a legal wage), there'll be 10 people that are. Unions would rather sacrifice jobs than go backwards even slightly.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by b0son

And wages up to double the award have no impact? If wages can go up when an industry is doing well, they should also be able to go down when its not. For everyone not willing to work for less (but still a legal wage), there'll be 10 people that are. Unions would rather sacrifice jobs than go backwards even slightly.

Workers in germany, the us, canada etc are paid more than aussie auto workers. And wages only make up a small percentage of costs. They could work for $1 an hour and it wouldnt make much difference.

[78xcgxl]

Originally Posted by b0son

And wages up to double the award have no impact? If wages can go up when an industry is doing well, they should also be able to go down when its not. For everyone not willing to work for less (but still a legal wage), there'll be 10 people that are. Unions would rather sacrifice jobs than go backwards even slightly.

Wages need to be in proportion to the cost of living simple. No one can live on the award, it is a joke. I'd like to see you live on it. How can Australian workers compete with Thailand's workers on $4 per hour wage? Sure $4 per hour in Thailand is a good wage and in proportion to their cost living but NOT in Australian. I can't why people are soo thick in head, living in their own little bubble and can't understand simple facts.

The fact of wages and unions have doing to do with the ending of manufacturing in Australia. It is a stupid Liberal ideology. Removing tariffs and free trade is what makes the workers wage seem out of proportion because it is unfair competition. It is putting, for example an Australian worker at say $25 per hour with a overseas worker at $4 per hour. Of course the Australian made car is going to cost more to make and therefore retail for more than the overseas vehicle. So why would Joe citizen buy a ford falcon ute at $32,000 when you can buy a jap single cab at $23,000.

Having strong tariffs forces the Australian public to buy Australian made cars or pay a big premium with the overseas made vehicle. What do you think most will do. Buy a Australian made ute at $32,000 or the heavily taxed import ute at $45,000...........

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by 78xcgxl

It is an absolute disgrace that the Australian government let this happen. The removal of tariffs and free trade agreements has done nothing but make the industry unsustainable and unable to compete on a level playing field.

When you think about it, had the government continued to protect the local industry and imposed import tariffs, we would not have access to the wide range of affordable international vehicles that we do.

[78xcgxl]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

When you think about it, had the government continued to protect the local industry and imposed import tariffs, we would not have access to the wide range of affordable international vehicles that we do.

So you are basically saying you don't give a stuff about Australian workers and are happy to save a few $$$ while being spoilt to a greater range.. Nice. If the local industry thrived they would of also been able to offer a greater range, just look at the US market.....

[kazawaki]

NOPE ,It has been killed off.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by kazawaki

NOPE ,It has been killed off.

I hope someone out there proves you wrong. Does anyone know if automotive design or engineering subjects are still available in Australia?

[roddy1960]

G'day....Read this some time...http://www.aph.gov.au/sitecore/conte...IB9697/97cib22 This shows the way the import tariffs were figured as much as anything .So many other articles also feature and blame the Button Car Plan too rightly or wrongly for the demise of car manufacturing in our country.
This was our Government......
I'd love to see some sort of ressurection at some time in some form though. It's hard to believe that we live in a First World nation , one of the richest countries on the planet and the only one in the G20 that does not have (after this year) a car manufacturing industry in any real form other than R&D stuff....Cheers Rod..

[roddy1960]

G'day all...apologies .... I clicked on a saved document I thought was the one I'd saved from a year or two back on the dramatic tariff reductions from the mid eighties until recently under the Button Car Plan...It wasn't the one ...Still shows the 1996-2000 stuff though... Now I can't find the original one from 2015.. Here's another interesting article from the Age though..http://palmproducts.com.au/is-the-gl...december-2013/ ...Not a bad read from late 2013..
.
Re resurrecting a car industry...It'd be pie in the sky to think that we could one day have some form of automotive manufacturing again but it is certainly possible.. Look at this...http://gentlemansgarage.com/zenvo-st...rks-first-car/ ..Denmark has a small population , is surrounded by major manufacturing countries like Germany , Italy , France , Sweden, UK (sort of)...and they have their own supercar...Sells to a limited market but it seems to do okay...At least they build something.

. I wonder with the abundance of talented engineers /designers and manufacturing expertise that Australia has why it's not impossible that we could knock out Australia's supercar at some stage. Small numbers but high quality..We're not getting the Ford GT...Bugger them , we'll do a Lamborghini and say , stuff you Ford , we'll build our own..just like Mr. Lamborghini did with Ferrari..
Never say never..too many talented Aussies out there to reject it completely.. Cheers Rod...

[71cop]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

When you think about it, had the government continued to protect the local industry and imposed import tariffs, we would not have access to the wide range of affordable international vehicles that we do.

Yeah nothing like having a wide range of affordable international vehicles at the expense of our auto industry, just great isn't it.
We done quite well here for many years with our own auto industry which manufactured pretty much every sort of vehicle we needed to do any sort of job. If I had to choose between a range of Aussie made vehicles or international ones I know what I would rather.

[Vesper Martini]

Whenever we have these threads, it amazes me how people throw out their opinions at what would have saved the industry, or worse they have a go at people who like having the choice of imported vehicles.
When in reality they are driving cars 20 plus years old and don't contribute at all to the Australian Manufacturing industry.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Whenever we have these threads, it amazes me how people throw out their opinions at what would have saved the industry, or worse they have a go at people who like having the choice of imported vehicles.
When in reality they are driving cars 20 plus years old and don't contribute at all to the Australian Manufacturing industry.

Precisely. Hypocrites, nothing more. Where was their brand new XR8? Oh that's right, let's wait 5 years until it is second hand, but hey let's keep hammering those who buy imports.

The car industry closed down for a number of reasons and blaming the government solely is completely ignorant; yes policy could have assisted, but when a business relies almost entirely on handouts to survive it really does say a lot about the product being developed/sold.

Yes, I am disappointed by the local industry failing, but it had its time. On a global scale, we're simply not competitive enough to manufacture on a large scale. This can be due to government (all 3) policy, business decisions (not enough investment), geographical and whether you like it/agree with it; wages (retrenchment packages are generous esp at TMCA, and the company must keep those funds available, that's a lot of $$). We're simply far too tied up in red tape to be good enough to do business here.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by 78xcgxl

So you are basically saying you don't give a stuff about Australian workers and are happy to save a few $$$ while being spoilt to a greater range.. Nice. If the local industry thrived they would of also been able to offer a greater range, just look at the US market.....

-Population of America: 319 million.
-Population of Australia: 23 Million.

You really think that Australian manufactured cars can match what America does? American made cars account for around 60% of the 18 million annual sales also...

...and thats with no tariffs except for the "chicken tax", a tax placed on utes/pick up trucks.

[roddy1960]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Whenever we have these threads, it amazes me how people throw out their opinions at what would have saved the industry, or worse they have a go at people who like having the choice of imported vehicles.
When in reality they are driving cars 20 plus years old and don't contribute at all to the Australian Manufacturing industry.

G'day..I get your point but I'll use my situation as another point...I LOVE the Blue Oval stuff , probably too much in fact.. Not as keen on Holden but it's still pretty good..
Just over a year ago I spent $9500 on my 2008 Mk1 FG XR6..plus my BA Fairmont trade in...Around $12500 all up...I couldn't spend any more..that stretched me given my financial circumstances and house renovation debts .. As far as I know Ford or Holden do not have anything even remotely close to new that I could afford or even like..
Around $15,000 for a base Fiesta , About $19,000 for a ST...Don't do a thing for me at all. You've got to like what you're driving....Focus around $19-23,000 ...but that's $6-7000 more than I could go at the time...There are probably many of us driving older Fords for similar reasons to me I'd say..

One day I'd love to walk into a Ford dealership and buy a new one but is totally out of the question as we speak..Cheers Rod...

[Vesper Martini]

Not having a go at you Roddy on this occasion :-)
But there's a couple of posts having a go at someone who actually owns a new Territory.
the Irony of it...

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Whenever we have these threads, it amazes me how people throw out their opinions at what would have saved the industry, or worse they have a go at people who like having the choice of imported vehicles.
When in reality they are driving cars 20 plus years old and don't contribute at all to the Australian Manufacturing industry.

Exactly.
Since 2007 I have purchased three new Aus made Fords. I think I did my bit.
For some people the air gets a bit thin up there on their soap box.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Workers in germany, the us, canada etc are paid more than aussie auto workers. And wages only make up a small percentage of costs. They could work for $1 an hour and it wouldnt make much difference.

Workers in germany, the US and canada EXPORT, they work on an economy of scale we cant comprehend. THAT is why they can afford to be paid what they are.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by 78xcgxl

Having strong tariffs forces the Australian public to buy Australian made cars or pay a big premium with the overseas made vehicle. What do you think most will do. Buy a Australian made ute at $32,000 or the heavily taxed import ute at $45,000...........

It also encourages the industry to not move with the times, not deliver new tech or safety advancements, and not deliver value.

In any case, arent most people spending big $$$ on cars? Even when there are cheaper options?

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by b0son

It also encourages the industry to not move with the times, not deliver new tech or safety advancements, and not deliver value.

In any case, arent most people spending big $$$ on cars? Even when there are cheaper options?

Bringing them back into play would not result in this. We have design and engineering expertise borne out of survival. There's no way we'd go backwards. A few protectionist measures would be enough to encourage a small volume upstart. Not even protectionist- just legislation outlined in the article like compulsory govt. purchase, subsidisation of crash testing and some development costs.

We have enough expertise here to build premium cars and maybe even a V8 dual cab. We are a tenacious nation and I know there's a generation of people inspired enough to have a go.

I get all the obstacles and the unlikelihood I just really want to see someone try. Otherwise we are a bunch of pretentious has-beens with cultural cringe, who let anyone from overseas come and buy all our houses, dig our minerals out of the ground and destroy our environment.

[2011G6E]

It was a "swiss cheese" problem...all the holes lined up and the mouse got through.
* We are a modern industrialised First World western nation.
* However, we're located in the middle of nowhere.
* Surrounded by heavily populated countries, mostly third world, with hundreds of millions of people, while we have a vast empty country with concentrated population centers around the south and east coast mainly, with less population than a lot of large overseas cities.
* These countries...while having a poor population, have a massive capability to have a huge industry base at low wages with a low cost of living. A "good wage" there will be a tenth of what we think of here as "a minimum wage", and because of the low cost of living, those people think they're doing quite well, and they are, comparatively (don't fall into the trap of sitting in Australia and purely looking at the "dollar per hour" pay rate of those people and assume it's "slave wages"...to THEM, it's a "good wage").
* The car makers here had it too good for too long. They relied on a captive audience who was spoon fed whatever they spat out of the factories, while successive governments heavily protected them from the big bad world outside Australia with import duties and tariffs, restrictions on being able to drive brand new left hand drive cars, and special design rules that made companies think twice about bringing in foreign models, as they have to build special versions just for our design rules.
* The buying public changes...they were formerly "loyal" buyers who had the outlook that "Daddy had one and his daddy had one so I have to buy one". This led to lazy manufacturers who knew damn well that the "Ford man" or the "Holden man" would just buy whatever they made, simply because it was a Ford or Holden.
* The public is now instead far better informed than ever before...they walk into a dealership knowing almost exactly what they want, and they will have done lots of research online, looking at specs, comparing models, and looking up comparisons to choose what will suit them best.
* The publics desire for certain types of car changes...and makers around the world have been caught out badly by this time and time again. Look at the Yanks in the early 2000's when everyone wanted oversized fuel gizzling crap like H2 Hummers and other massive trucks...the makers swapped over production lines to spit them out by the thousands, and then times changed, people wanted "normal" cars, and the makers were stuck with unsellable acres of massive trucks that no one wanted. Here in Australia it went from the stereotypical "large six cylinder rear drive three box sedan" to hatchbacks, small to large SUV's, and twin cabs, and the makers did not see this coming. Ford and Holden kept on spitting out Falcons and Commodores that no one wanted anymore, and they simply didn't seem to realise this fact until it was way too late.
* Car buyers no longer feel they must buy a Falcon/Commodore just because "it's Australian". There is a vast range of cars to suit almost any need now, with even cheap models having very high levels of trim and included tech and equipment, and the Falcon/Commodore simply got left behind...it wasn't what people wanted anymore. It was an idea whose time had come and long gone.

I could also add that we never actually had a "local car industry...technically speaking. What we had was a couple of "small off-shoots of large American car companies", which had been for years generously allowed to build specialist models for a tiny sales base. We are extremely lucky not to have just kept on getting...as we did for decades...CKD kits of American cars shipped out here and put together on a line, and nothing more. Maybe...and this is herasy I know...we would have been better off if we had contiunued on doing this over the years, instead of trying to build special cars just for our small population. We would most likely still have local "factories" producing these CKD cars for our own country.
Being one of the very few RHD countries in the world never helped us either...http://www.rhinocarhire.com/Car-Hire...ndy-Guide.aspx

If you fail to read the public and look a little at trends and the future needs of buyers, you fail, big time.

[2011G6E]

I'll also add to that list that Australian makers used to do it almost right...they did small, medium, and large cars, wagons, and utes. Back in the 1970's and into the early eighties, Ford had the Escort (admittedly English, but built here), Cortina (same again), and Falcon. All of these had sedan and wagon varients, Falcon had utes. Then you had the Fairlane and LTD for luxury buyers. Holden had the Gemini, Sunbird/Torana, and Kingswood/Commodore.

Then came "rationalisation" (model streamlining and things like the Button Plan) and they changed, making less models, becoming more importers of smaller stuff and building only large sedans. And people realised the imported stuff offered more.
Then came the foreign makers...with a huge range of new types of cars that never existed before. SUV's, twin cab utes, small, medium, and large 4x4's that were actually comfortable and easy to live with...an amazing thing to those of us who grew up in an era back in the seventies and eighties when "4x4" meant lumbering, fuel guzzling, under-powered, low-specced, but tough wagons like old Patrols and Landcruisers that no one in a city or town would usually think of buying.

Now the class of car is endless...it flows from small, medium, and large hatchbacks, SUV's, 4x4's, twin cabs, sedans, and other harder to classify vehicles that seem to do a bit of everything. The buyer doesn't really have to "compromise" by picking something that only does a few things they want.

Our makers had become one-trick-ponies...they made one type of car, and that's a dangerous thing to do in the car world.

As hard as it is to admit, I'm not sure we could...or possibly even should..."resurrect the Australian car". The Commodore and Falcon had become the wrong car for the wrong time. They'd become outdated, lacking in several areas, and aimed at too limited an audience. Then there's the fact far more people seemed to like the idea of an Australian car than actually went out and actually bought one. I've seen the sentiment right here on this forum...someone once said "But I can't afford a brand new car, what am I going to do in five or ten years time when I want to buy one!"...as if manufacturers care about the second hand market.

So could we resurrect it? No. Not really, not in these days. We're still going to have a wide range of interesting models to choose from, just that they won't be built here, and something will be done for the tiny number of enthusiasts, but to be blunt, volume sells cars, not sentiment, and again a huge percentage of those enthusiasts have never and will never buy a brand new HSV/FPV anyway, so again they don't really count.

Originally Posted by Nikked

-Population of America: 319 million.
-Population of Australia: 23 Million.

You really think that Australian manufactured cars can match what America does? American made cars account for around 60% of the 18 million annual sales also...

...and thats with no tariffs except for the "chicken tax", a tax placed on utes/pick up trucks.

Not to mention that because of economy of scale, wages, and cost of living, they can make cars and trucks stupidly cheaply...go to Ford.com, Dodge.com. Chevrolet.com, or Chrysler.com, and have a look at the "build and price" tab.
Have a box of tissues handy...you'll cry when you see the price of something really interesting. You'll be wishing our stupid government let people drive brand new LHD cars here the way they let you drive 30 year old-plus cars...

[The Snout]

^ Well said.

I get Australian jobs but I also get protecting industry to the point they just churn out any old **** because they can with their tariff advantage and get paid by the tax payer to do it.

People can only see life from their own times they live in too. The Australian car industry was pretty short lived in terms of this country and it's history going forward. But because people were born during it and lived their whole lives in it they think it's always been part of the country.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by The Snout

^ Well said.

I get Australian jobs but I also get protecting industry to the point they just churn out any old **** because they can with their tariff advantage and get paid by the tax payer to do it.

People can only see life from their own times they live in too. The Australian car industry was pretty short lived in terms of this country and it's history going forward. But because people were born during it and lived their whole lives in it they think it's always been part of the country.

True! It was a shockingly short time ago that "the Australian car industry" meant "putting together CKD kits shipped in from overseas". And not that long before that when it was merely "body building for chassis and running gear from overseas". Less than a human lifetime ago in fact. It never had a firm footing in the future and we should probably be glad it lasted as long as it did.

I feel badly for the people who have, and are going to, lose their jobs over this, but really...they've had in some cases a few years notice that the end was coming. Most people get two weeks notice. Some poor sods turn up monday morning to locked gates. They should be careful complaining too loudly on the TV news about it because those things have happened to many people who would have loved to get two or three years notice that their job was coming to an end.

[roddy1960]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Not having a go at you Roddy on this occasion :-)
But there's a couple of posts having a go at someone who actually owns a new Territory.
the Irony of it...

G'day....I get your point again...My dream is to buy a brand new Ford one day...That'd be awesome...
Someone having a dig at buying a new Territory is truly ironic as you say...
I'd love to have a brand new Territory , especially if it was a turbo diesel AWD one. Titantium even more so....Nice...
Cheers Rod...