Final FPV sparks kilowatt controversy (GT-F vs GTS) - Page 3

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 03:19 PM

By the way I believe there's going to be a retest by Wheels with engineers from Ford and Holden. I don't think we're going to be in on that one, personally I was satisfied with the results we had before and I stand by them.

Bent8 · 13-07-2014, 03:45 PM

If I was Wheels, I would hold off doing another test until we see some GT-F owners take delivery and do their own dyno runs... then we can take an average and put this issue to rest.

That's how HSV forums got their 316rwkw average for the GTS.

turbo4me · 13-07-2014, 03:51 PM

The bottom line is there are two scenarios

1....if the Ford makes around the 311rw mark ford will have egg on their face.

2....if the Ford makes closer to their claimed mark it's going to be hilarious.

Just have to wait and see.

nstg8a · 13-07-2014, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent8

If I was Wheels, I would hold off doing another test until we see some GT-F owners take delivery and do their own dyno runs... then we can take an average and put this issue to rest.

That's how HSV forums got their 316rwkw average for the GTS.

And that really is the only way to settle this, ford blames wheels, wheels blames ford, we all think it's a conspiracy...

Remember when street fords first dynoed a 335? They got some thing like 340 rwkw and everyone laughed, until other started getting similar numbers.

We need a good amount of different cars being dynoed and go from there.

Wretched · 13-07-2014, 04:04 PM

Thank you taking the time to come here and explain the situation blownvn.

Iggle Piggle · 13-07-2014, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownvn

Why the difference? Well look at the torque figures that Motoring.com.au are claiming. They claim 721Nm for the GT-F when we all know that Ford have torque limited the GT-F (and all the previous Miami powered cars) to 570Nm.

Sorry if I missed it - what torque figure did the GT-F get in the 311rwkw run?

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched

Thank you taking the time to come here and explain the situation blownvn.

No worries. Anyone that knows me knows i'll tell the story good or bad. Just look at V6 Vengeance and my 13s for $1300 project. Good or bad I always published the results we got.

1TUFFUTE · 13-07-2014, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent8

If I was Wheels, I would hold off doing another test until we see some GT-F owners take delivery and do their own dyno runs... then we can take an average and put this issue to rest.

That's how HSV forums got their 316rwkw average for the GTS.

This really is the only way wheels or anyone should be handing out such a big award/claim.....that said car is the most powerfull aus car. Them doing one dyno and even attempting to award such a title smacks of absolute noobism, bias or just plain attention seeking....when you think about it!

Everyone knows of both GT335s and vf GTS dynos that've gone under 300rwkws. Imagine if wheels got that on the day

I bet they would have handled/commented on that far differently!

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

Sorry if I missed it - what torque figure did the GT-F get in the 311rwkw run?

I don't print chassis dyno torque figures because I don't trust them, because some try to show flywheel figures while others use tractive effort. When it comes to chassis dynos I think it's best to stick with HP or KW.

prydey · 13-07-2014, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownvn

No worries. Anyone that knows me knows i'll tell the story good or bad.

a couple of questions

why are SM so defensive over this whole issue. very little noise coming from wheels, but SM seem overly defensive. the saying ,'thou protesteth too much' comes to mind.

why are you not prepared to listen to the manufacturer? surely they would know their product better than anyone.

why was the performance not questioned relative to the 335? VCM have tested 'loads of 335's' apparently. why not mention the ave result of these to provide an idea of the dyno readings.

most of the fans don't care about the GTS number, something the mags failed to grasp. nearly all the concern is the low figure relative to the 335.

prydey · 13-07-2014, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownvn

Why the difference? Well look at the torque figures that Motoring.com.au are claiming. They claim 721Nm for the GT-F when we all know that Ford have torque limited the GT-F (and all the previous Miami powered cars) to 570Nm. Did Ford turn the torque protection off in the software before handing the car to Motoring.com.au for their "independent test"? Who knows?

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownvn

I don't print chassis dyno torque figures because I don't trust them

so you don't take notice of the figures? or only when it suits your argument against something?

i'm confused.

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 04:43 PM

hit send too early - see answer below

hootar · 13-07-2014, 04:45 PM

Ford, fpv and pro drive have been developing and working with this motor for years now. I think they would have a fair idea what they make. Hundreds of engineers, thousands of hours, and few trillion Gigga Bytes of info would be telling them what their motor makes.

SM and wheels dyno test for a hand full of runs on one dyno and come up with a figure. Now they are telling Ford that their engineers, technicians and mechanics are talking crap and the GTF only makes 311 rwkw. That would be right as a journalist with all his years of mechanical and training experience can stand beside what someone's else's dyno tells them, and take that as gospel. Only a fool/fools would do that.

In this case I believe Ford over SM and Wheels. Ford is a multi billion dollar company. They dont share an office with 3 other little book makers. Ford have a lot more to loose then SM and Wheels if they are wrong. All there data tells them that 311rwkw is not right. If it was they wouldn't put up an argument.

I'm sorry but SM and Wheels pulled the trigger too early in their rush to get out there first with dyno figures. If they were right with the 311 figure and ford were wrong it would all be proved in the end and they could brag away to there delights. Doing what they have done only highlights their lack of respect for Ford and all the Aussie people who have worked on the SC Miami motor and the GT's in general.

Ford are going to fight for their product and the truth. Givin the circumstances, who wouldnt do that.

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

This really is the only way wheels or anyone should be handing out such a big award/claim.....that said car is the most powerfull aus car. Them doing one dyno and even attempting to award such a title smacks of absolute noobism, bias or just plain attention seeking....when you think about it!

Everyone knows of both GT335s and vf GTS dynos that've gone under 300rwkws. Imagine if wheels got that on the day

I bet they would have handled/commented on that far differently!

Who is talking about awards or titles? This was merely meant to be an interesting comparison. It wasn't meant to be the be all and end all test for FPV and HSV.

We ran the cars as presented. It's certainly a fairer test than having a team of engineers pour all over each car before hand.

As for attention seeking, that's exactly what the media business is about, but we don't have rig results to spark controversy - the controversy was already there, we just brought it to light.

lucas2 · 13-07-2014, 04:53 PM

I'm not sure if Ford has much to lose, the GT-F's are sold out. I'm more interested to see what members on here will be getting on the strip, if their MPH gets up towards 116+ we will know the power has been upped from the 335. In saying that, dyno numbers are still fun to brag about.

flooded one · 13-07-2014, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownvn

Who is talking about awards or titles? This was merely meant to be an interesting comparison. It wasn't meant to be the be all and end all test for FPV and HSVWe ran the cars presented. It's certainly a fairer test than having a team of engineers pour all over each car before hand. As for attention seeking, that's exactly what the media business is about, but we don't have rig results to spark controversy - the controversy was already there, we just brought it to light.

but wasn't the dyno done at a HSV tuner/ specialist???? wouldn't a mutual party be the best way to find the truth out???

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

a couple of questions

why are SM so defensive over this whole issue. very little noise coming from wheels, but SM seem overly defensive. the saying ,'thou protesteth too much' comes to mind.

why are you not prepared to listen to the manufacturer? surely they would know their product better than anyone.

why was the performance not questioned relative to the 335? VCM have tested 'loads of 335's' apparently. why not mention the ave result of these to provide an idea of the dyno readings.

most of the fans don't care about the GTS number, something the mags failed to grasp. nearly all the concern is the low figure relative to the 335.

Because basically those that are questioning then "honesty" of the test are calling MY honesty and integrity into question. If you were standing in front of me and questioned my honesty I'd push your face in.

You don't hear much from Wheels because they don't know much about dynos. They don't usually dyno test cars and they know little about them. On the other hand we at SM are constantly seeing cars dyno'ed. We have a fair idea of what to expect.

Before all this came about Ford never made any claims about power other than the GT-F made 351kw "anywhere, anytime" and up to 15% more when the conditions are right. To now claim their cars are making up to 351rwkw is just laughable.

Ford has never talked to SM about the results, only Wheels.

I don't consider the GT-F figure to be low, after all you can't race dynos. No point comparing dyno figures from other workshops or manual cars.

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucas2

I'm not sure if Ford has much to lose, the GT-F's are sold out. I'm more interested to see what members on here will be getting on the strip, if their MPH gets up towards 116+ we will know the power has been upped from the 335. In saying that, dyno numbers are still fun to brag about.

That does confuse us as well. Ford have sold all the cars already yet they were really having a big whinge to Wheels.

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildrider

but wasn't the dyno done at a HSV tuner/ specialist???? wouldn't a mutual party be the best way to find the truth out???

Does it matter where you do it? It's a dyno, it's the same dyno for both cars and the workshop wasn't left alone with the cars at any time.

Do you think performance testing shouldn't be done at a track that's sponsored by Ford of Holden?

They actually releasing a new Ford tuning program soon so I don't see that having VCM do the testing over someone like Herrods makes any difference.

prydey · 13-07-2014, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownvn

Because basically those that are questioning then "honesty" of the test are calling MY honesty and integrity into question. If you were standing in front of me and questioned my honesty I'd push your face in.

ahh the irony

its ok for you to call in to question the honesty and integrity of ford, but believe you are above reproach yourself?

and clearly you are the type that resort to violence when question as well. bravo.

to be fair though, this is just another example of you being defensive. after all, SM didn't dyno the cars, VCM did. its not SM's credibility in question, well, it wasn't, until they started being ultra defensive.

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

so you don't take notice of the figures? or only when it suits your argument against something?

i'm confused.

I'm not the one that printed the figures, Motoring.com.au did. They're the one claiming 348rwkw and 721Nm.

I'm saying I reckon it's bullshit.

But if you want to have this argument then fine. Look at our dyno video. In the top left hand corner you will see a torque figure that climbs with the dyno graph. It says the torque stays around the 570Nm mark (+/- a couple Nm) for the whole run.

Motoring.com.au are claiming 150Nm more. That's a massive difference. how does a car limited to 570Nm via its factory tune make 721Nm?

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

ahh the irony

its ok for you to call in to question the honesty and integrity of ford, but believe you are above reproach yourself?

and clearly you are the type that resort to violence when question as well. bravo.

to be fair though, this is just another example of you being defensive. after all, SM didn't dyno the cars, VCM did. its not SM's credibility in question, well, it wasn't, until they started being ultra defensive.

Manufacturers have a history of handing magazines cars that have been tickled up to make themselves look better.

In this case I think they never expected us to dyno the car, then they panicked. Then I reckon they handed the car off to another publication to get the results they wanted. The timing was very convenient, they managed to delay Wheels just enough to get "their" figures out.

We'll see what the retest delivers.

flooded one · 13-07-2014, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownvn

Does it matter where you do it? It's a dyno, it's the same dyno for both cars and the workshop wasn't left alone with the cars at any time.

Do you think performance testing shouldn't be done at a track that's sponsored by Ford of Holden?

They actually releasing a new Ford tuning program soon so I don't see that having VCM do the testing over someone like Herrods makes any difference.

and whats it to you?? you say you don't have a dog in this fight but judging by your answer you do. All I asked was a question and you snapped

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildrider

and whats it to you?? you say you don't have a dog in this fight but judging by your answer you do. All I asked was a question and you snapped

LOL, that's not snapping. My response is why should it matter where the cars are tested?

flooded one · 13-07-2014, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownvn

Because basically those that are questioning then "honesty" of the test are calling MY honesty and integrity into question. If you were standing in front of me and questioned my honesty I'd push your face in.

You don't hear much from Wheels because they don't know much about dynos. They don't usually dyno test cars and they know little about them. On the other hand we at SM are constantly seeing cars dyno'ed. We have a fair idea of what to expect.

Before all this came about Ford never made any claims about power other than the GT-F made 351kw "anywhere, anytime" and up to 15% more when the conditions are right. To now claim their cars are making up to 351rwkw is just laughable.

Ford has never talked to SM about the results, only Wheels.

I don't consider the GT-F figure to be low, after all you can't race dynos. No point comparing dyno figures from other workshops or manual cars.

well what it got to do with street machine then??? yea good one threaten someone when being question. well explains this... why so many standard GT's producing more then 320kw at the treads?? you should know this being involved in the street scene

flooded one · 13-07-2014, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownvn

LOL, that's not snapping. My response it why should it matter where the cars are tested?

It is so snapping. you even threaten a member on here for questioning you. it does matter because if one place that has affiliation with a car company and tests another car companies vehicle of course ***** gunna hit the wall. I find the results weird as most stock GT's are putting out this figure or more at the wheels. plus we have another mob claiming the GT-F makes more power

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildrider

well what it got to do with street machine then??? yea good one threaten someone when being question. well explains this... why so many standard GT's producing more then 320kw at the treads?? you should know this being involved in the street scene

LOL, you call that a threat.

All these 320rwkw figures quoted. My first question would be are they auto or manual? Are they on a Dyno Dynamics dyno? A manual car on a DD dyno will probably see the highest result.

My mates GT-P manual made 308rwkw when it was new, but again different dyno, different day.

You can only compare two cars using the same dyno, same time.

prydey · 13-07-2014, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownvn

You can only compare two cars using the same dyno, same time.

so why are you accusing Ford of fiddling with the car for the 'motoring' test?? perhaps its just the fact that its a different day and different dyno?

i still think SM have been way too defensive. should have taken a leaf out of 'wheels' book and just gone to ground and let the public argue it out.

flooded one · 13-07-2014, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownvn

LOL, you call that a threat.

All these 320rwkw figures quoted. My first question would be are they auto or manual? Are they on a Dyno Dynamics dyno? A manual car on a DD dyno will probably see the highest result.

My mates GT-P manual made 308rwkw when it was new, but again different dyno, different day.

You can only compare two cars using the same dyno, same time.

http://www.motoring.com.au/news/spor...-hsv-gts-44638

like this hey. this thing made 348kw at the wheels. can you explain this?? the same dyno was used for the GTS it made more then what wheels got (8kw difference) but yet the GT-F made 37kw more then what wheels claimed?? please explain this??

and as far as I know GT-F number 14 is auto

blownvn · 13-07-2014, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

so why are you accusing Ford of fiddling with the car for the 'motoring' test?? perhaps its just the fact that its a different day and different dyno?

i still think SM have been way too defensive. should have taken a leaf out of 'wheels' book and just gone to ground and let the public argue it out.

Yep, I reckon they removed the ECU's torque protection for 'motoring' test. I think there's more to it than different day, different dyno. The timing was suggestive too.

Even with different dynos cars don't just jump 37kw and 150Nm overnight.

Anyway, I'm going to leave it there. I've said my piece.