HSV Turns up the heat (updated with official details) - Page 3

kpcart · 04-07-2009, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT69

I think it would be nice to lose the KW rating on the FPV's. Maybe then the buying public wont be readily able to compare them on propaganda value alone....mind you i dont believe people actually buy cars because when the badge says.

I dont think you understand how the car market works. on your principles ford will go broke in 2 weeks. At the moment Holdent is SELLING their product better then Ford. You may think Ford has the better product, but that is just you, and not the thousands of potential buyers who look at what you call 'propoganda'. Maybe Ford should do some propoganda, by installing more powerful engines, heck it will even increase the performance of the car!
Dont kid yourself. People look at the numbers, and most people will not drive the car at maximum revs, they like the feeling of knowing their car makes more power then another car, or 'propoganda' as you call it.
In Summary, Ford would sell a lot more cars if they used what you call propoganda, but it isnt really propoganda for Holden as their engine has more cubes so will always be able to out power a Ford motor. I bet the 6.2 Holden doing 317kw is less stressed then Fords again Boss doing 315kw from 5.4L

kpcart · 04-07-2009, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOSSGT302

Just look at Corvette v Mustang, if my memory serves me right, the LS3 6.2ltr Blown Corvette has 476kw and 5.4ltr Blown Shelby Mustang produces 514kw but no drive train warranty. .8ltr difference and the numbers go to Ford. Add the blower and let the party begin. Remember these cars are the top of the range and not the common day ride.

That is an extremely bad example. that supercharged ls3 will last forever, and the 5.4l ford wont, thats why it has no warranty! it is too highly tuned. If the Chev motor and Ford motor were tuned at the same level, with the same amount of Supercharging pressure, the Chev will win everytime as it is a light economical engine and it has more cubes. you can not just say '.8ltr difference and the numbers go to Ford' because you are not looking at the type of supercharger and all the other factors that you have disregarded to try to make 'Ford' look better when everyone who has actually played with both engines actually knows the real story.

'

kpcart · 04-07-2009, 06:07 AM

sorry, reposted - deleted

kpcart · 04-07-2009, 06:11 AM

sorry, reposted - deleted

GT69 · 04-07-2009, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpcart

I dont think you understand how the car market works. on your principles ford will go broke in 2 weeks. At the moment Holdent is SELLING their product better then Ford. You may think Ford has the better product, but that is just you, and not the thousands of potential buyers who look at what you call 'propoganda'. Maybe Ford should do some propoganda, by installing more powerful engines, heck it will even increase the performance of the car!
Dont kid yourself. People look at the numbers, and most people will not drive the car at maximum revs, they like the feeling of knowing their car makes more power then another car, or 'propoganda' as you call it.
In Summary, Ford would sell a lot more cars if they used what you call propoganda, but it isnt really propoganda for Holden as their engine has more cubes so will always be able to out power a Ford motor. I bet the 6.2 Holden doing 317kw is less stressed then Fords again Boss doing 315kw from 5.4L

prydey · 04-07-2009, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpcart

I dont think you understand how the car market works. on your principles ford will go broke in 2 weeks. At the moment Holdent is SELLING their product better then Ford. You may think Ford has the better product, but that is just you, and not the thousands of potential buyers who look at what you call 'propoganda'. Maybe Ford should do some propoganda, by installing more powerful engines, heck it will even increase the performance of the car!
Dont kid yourself. People look at the numbers, and most people will not drive the car at maximum revs, they like the feeling of knowing their car makes more power then another car, or 'propoganda' as you call it.
In Summary, Ford would sell a lot more cars if they used what you call propoganda, but it isnt really propoganda for Holden as their engine has more cubes so will always be able to out power a Ford motor. I bet the 6.2 Holden doing 317kw is less stressed then Fords again Boss doing 315kw from 5.4L

i think from this post you clearly demonstrate that you have no grasp on how the car market works. people definitely do NOT buy cars depending on which one has the best peak power figure. some do, yes, but i would say most don't. go down to your local shopping centre and survey some people regarding the power output of their cars and where it stands in relation to its competition. fair enough, HSV and FPV aim their cars at a slightly different market and as mentioned before in this thread by 4vman, only one manufacturer has buyers that spend based on badge numbers. the other manufacturer shoots your arguement in the foot on its own. the F6 is clearly faster than the GT and yet has never yet outsold its 'slower' brother.

also hoden MAY be selling cars but either they have less profit margin than ford or they are doing something very wrong. also the sales figures for the large cars are fast becoming a lot closer.

**Fordman1** · 04-07-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpcart

I dont think you understand how the car market works. on your principles ford will go broke in 2 weeks. At the moment Holdent is SELLING their product better then Ford. You may think Ford has the better product, but that is just you, and not the thousands of potential buyers who look at what you call 'propoganda'. Maybe Ford should do some propoganda, by installing more powerful engines, heck it will even increase the performance of the car!
Dont kid yourself. People look at the numbers, and most people will not drive the car at maximum revs, they like the feeling of knowing their car makes more power then another car, or 'propoganda' as you call it.
In Summary, Ford would sell a lot more cars if they used what you call propoganda, but it isnt really propoganda for Holden as their engine has more cubes so will always be able to out power a Ford motor. I bet the 6.2 Holden doing 317kw is less stressed then Fords again Boss doing 315kw from 5.4L

What ?

Road_Warrior · 04-07-2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpcart

I dont think you understand how the car market works. on your principles ford will go broke in 2 weeks. At the moment Holdent is SELLING their product better then Ford. You may think Ford has the better product, but that is just you, and not the thousands of potential buyers who look at what you call 'propoganda'. Maybe Ford should do some propoganda, by installing more powerful engines, heck it will even increase the performance of the car!
Dont kid yourself. People look at the numbers, and most people will not drive the car at maximum revs, they like the feeling of knowing their car makes more power then another car, or 'propoganda' as you call it.
In Summary, Ford would sell a lot more cars if they used what you call propoganda, but it isnt really propoganda for Holden as their engine has more cubes so will always be able to out power a Ford motor. I bet the 6.2 Holden doing 317kw is less stressed then Fords again Boss doing 315kw from 5.4L

lol wut

4Vman · 04-07-2009, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpcart

That is an extremely bad example. that supercharged ls3 will last forever, and the 5.4l ford wont, thats why it has no warranty! it is too highly tuned. If the Chev motor and Ford motor were tuned at the same level, with the same amount of Supercharging pressure, the Chev will win everytime as it is a light economical engine and it has more cubes. you can not just say '.8ltr difference and the numbers go to Ford' because you are not looking at the type of supercharger and all the other factors that you have disregarded to try to make 'Ford' look better when everyone who has actually played with both engines actually knows the real story.

'

Oh Really???

Bossxr8 · 04-07-2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Well if wheels said it we know its wrong then....

They claim the quote came directly from Rod Barrett himself, so I doubt wether they would make it up and claim it was him who said it, they have to be right some of the time, but the rest of their crappy GTHO story was pretty poor.

XR6_190 · 04-07-2009, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpcart

I dont think you understand how the car market works. on your principles ford will go broke in 2 weeks. At the moment Holdent is SELLING their product better then Ford. You may think Ford has the better product, but that is just you, and not the thousands of potential buyers who look at what you call 'propoganda'. Maybe Ford should do some propoganda, by installing more powerful engines, heck it will even increase the performance of the car!
Dont kid yourself. People look at the numbers, and most people will not drive the car at maximum revs, they like the feeling of knowing their car makes more power then another car, or 'propoganda' as you call it.
In Summary, Ford would sell a lot more cars if they used what you call propoganda, but it isnt really propoganda for Holden as their engine has more cubes so will always be able to out power a Ford motor. I bet the 6.2 Holden doing 317kw is less stressed then Fords again Boss doing 315kw from 5.4L

You aren't serious are you? Then going by your logic a Ferrari V8 will last about 2 minutes, what with 'only' being 4.3L but producing a whopping 375kw (F430 scuderia). This is not the 1970s, it doesn't just come down to 'cubes', good technology counts for a lot more than size. Also I pity the poor ignorant fool that buys a car solely on peak power output, actually, they probably deserve to put up with the crap interior of a VE.

Transfiguring R · 05-07-2009, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpcart

I dont think you understand how the car market works. on your principles ford will go broke in 2 weeks. At the moment Holdent is SELLING their product better then Ford. You may think Ford has the better product, but that is just you, and not the thousands of potential buyers who look at what you call 'propoganda'. Maybe Ford should do some propoganda, by installing more powerful engines, heck it will even increase the performance of the car!
Dont kid yourself. People look at the numbers, and most people will not drive the car at maximum revs, they like the feeling of knowing their car makes more power then another car, or 'propoganda' as you call it.
In Summary, Ford would sell a lot more cars if they used what you call propoganda, but it isnt really propoganda for Holden as their engine has more cubes so will always be able to out power a Ford motor. I bet the 6.2 Holden doing 317kw is less stressed then Fords again Boss doing 315kw from 5.4L

Without jumping fully on the bandwagon here (see above posts), I have to ask, do you know anything about engineering? How about I ask you another question... Why can these 5.4l Boss V8's be supercharged, without strengthening the internals and other mechanical components, and still run fine for many kilometers?

Part of the answer to those questions, the part I'm thinking of mostly, is that the engine components are designed to take twice, maybe close to three times, the power output that they support from factory. In engineering it's called 'factor of safety'.

mcnews · 05-07-2009, 01:09 PM

Did they just forget the oil pump gears etc. then at engineering school?

Transfiguring R · 05-07-2009, 01:13 PM

Possibly, I wasn't involved in the development, so I can't answer your question. The answer to that could be anything. Things like that occasionally happen where I work... I still stand by what I said.

Maybe you can tell me why these engines can be supercharged and still run fine?

mcnews · 05-07-2009, 01:49 PM

Some will no doubt, some will go bang no doubt.

No doubt the factory Supercharged engine in the Ford GT (The Supercar one) has plenty of nice goodies inside to ensure it hangs together. That engine pulls damn hard actually, I have what is left of the 315 boots in the shed off the one I drove.

Transfiguring R · 05-07-2009, 02:02 PM

You lucky devil! That's my dream car. How did it compare to the Porsche you drove: good or bad?

greenfoam · 05-07-2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Aren't they going to the MY nomenclature?? I also think the Falcon is going to go the same way.

Just for interest, internally Holden have been using MY for a long time, at least since 1995, I had a factory upgraded tune for a VS here marked MY95 not long ago

Green X · 05-07-2009, 02:36 PM

Power figures not that bigger deal and i think only interest's a small % of buyers . My Boss buy's a new HSV evry 3 years, not because of the power over ford. Because he has always driven Holden's, and as he says after 3 years when he sell's it there is no shortage of 25 Yo guys ready to get a Car loan to buy the thing.

Bent8 · 05-07-2009, 05:17 PM

Hmm, interesting...do the guys at HSV really think their buyers are only interested in raw power figures?....

Last year when they stuck the 6.2L (LS3) in their VE's and only gained 10kW, I knew there was something fishy going on.

A properly tuned 6.2L V8 (even in pushrod form) should be cranking out well over 320kW and an easy 580Nm!

Probably not a fair comparison but just for reference here, the AMG tuned 6.2L DOHC V8 makes 386kW/630Nm or 69kW/80Nm more than the current LS3!

It could just be a simple matter of an ECU re-tune and some driveline strengthening for the guys at HSV to achieve their next technological milestone.

I'll bet FPV will wait and see (like us) what the final power figure is and will give their tried and true 5.4L BOSS it's final power tweak to annoy the General one last time, before the supercharged Coyote comes to take over the reigns.

Now I'm off to wonder how different the world would be if FPV had a 6.2L V8 to play with.......

phillyc · 05-07-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent8

Hmm, interesting...do the guys at HSV really think their buyers are only interested in raw power figures?....

They haven't been too far wrong with that in the past.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent8

I'll bet FPV will wait and see (like us) what the final power figure is and will give their tried and true 5.4L BOSS it's final power tweak to annoy the General one last time, before the supercharged Coyote comes to take over the reigns.

No, that is it until Coyote comes out. The costs for just 2000 engines doesn't justify it. I'd rather FPV spend the money on the new engine, alloys and visuals.

4Vman · 05-07-2009, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent8

Hmm, interesting...do the guys at HSV really think their buyers are only interested in raw power figures?....

Last year when they stuck the 6.2L (LS3) in their VE's and only gained 10kW, I knew there was something fishy going on.

A properly tuned 6.2L V8 (even in pushrod form) should be cranking out well over 320kW and an easy 580Nm!

Probably not a fair comparison but just for reference here, the AMG tuned 6.2L DOHC V8 makes 386kW/630Nm or 69kW/80Nm more than the current LS3!

It could just be a simple matter of an ECU re-tune and some driveline strengthening for the guys at HSV to achieve their next technological milestone.

I'll bet FPV will wait and see (like us) what the final power figure is and will give their tried and true 5.4L BOSS it's final power tweak to annoy the General one last time, before the supercharged Coyote comes to take over the reigns.

Now I'm off to wonder how different the world would be if FPV had a 6.2L V8 to play with.......

Comparing the pushrod LS3 to a DOHC performance engine like the AMG 6.2 is like comparing a Harley V twin to a Yamaha R1...
You wont get anywhere near the KW/L in euro 4 guise..

burnz · 05-07-2009, 06:31 PM

i'd like to see tha AMG with the holden/ford in bathurst 24 hour.

philstoj · 05-07-2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Comparing the pushrod LS3 to a DOHC performance engine like the AMG 6.2 is like comparing a Harley V twin to a Yamaha R1...
You wont get anywhere near the KW/L in euro 4 guise..

Id like to see how much it would be to purchase a complete new 6.2L AMG engine and then compare the price to a brand new LS3...

The harley vs R1 is going way too far isnt it?

mcnews · 06-07-2009, 08:00 AM

I would say it is. Bigger cubes and two valves per cylinder are no barrier to making a killer road engine, particularly in the all important lower and mid-range where in these days of draconian law enforcement is where we spend 99% of our driving time. Two valve engines generally breathe better at low rpm, while four valves breathe better at high rpm.

But yes comparing a Harley engine that is 1.5 times the size of an R1 engine but makes about a third of the power is a bit harsh :-)

SSbaby · 06-07-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

I would say it is. Bigger cubes and two valves per cylinder are no barrier to making a killer road engine, particularly in the all important lower and mid-range where in these days of draconian law enforcement is where we spend 99% of our driving time. Two valve engines generally breathe better at low rpm, while four valves breathe better at high rpm.

But yes comparing a Harley engine that is 1.5 times the size of an R1 engine but makes about a third of the power is a bit harsh :-)

Yes. And you can't really compare a GM 6.2L V8 to an MB 6.2L V8. Here's why...

The GM engine is designed to be upgrade friendly and comes severely detuned from the factory (cast iron headers anyone?). The MB engine, on the other hand, is a no excuses, purpose built engine for those who pay good money to have their engine fully developed by the factory instead of the aftermarket! ;)

You get what you pay for but there is no doubt the GM engine can be made to play with relatively little effort.

flappist · 06-07-2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Yes. And you can't really compare a GM 6.2L V8 to an MB 6.2L V8. Here's why...

The GM engine is designed to be upgrade friendly and comes severely detuned from the factory (cast iron headers anyone?). The MB engine, on the other hand, is a no excuses, purpose built engine for those who pay good money to have their engine fully developed by the factory instead of the aftermarket! ;)

You get what you pay for but there is no doubt the GM engine can be made to play with relatively little effort.

SSbaby · 06-07-2009, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSbaby

The MB engine, on the other hand, is a no excuses, purpose built engine for those who pay good money to have their engine fully developed by the factory instead of the aftermarket! ;)

Correction. That should read "fully developed (while emissions compliant) by the factory".

Eu-GenixX · 06-07-2009, 11:57 AM

i've said it before.. and i'll say it again...

You can't polish a !

Eu-GenixX · 06-07-2009, 12:00 PM

doh... bloody filter.. tho i didn't think that word would be filtered.. :S

Bossxr8 · 06-07-2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent8

Hmm, interesting...do the guys at HSV really think their buyers are only interested in raw power figures?....

Last year when they stuck the 6.2L (LS3) in their VE's and only gained 10kW, I knew there was something fishy going on.

A properly tuned 6.2L V8 (even in pushrod form) should be cranking out well over 320kW and an easy 580Nm!

The LS3 makes 325 and 575 nm in the Vette, HSV just kept it to 317 with the same 550 nm as LS2 so they could magically develop it to make 320-325 kw in the VF, without actually doing anything bar a few key strokes to undo the de-tuning they did previously, and then an emmisions test.

They will then get their marketing department onto it to advertise how much development work and money went into the said upgrade. The advertising budget will probably cost more than the re-tune.