Buick 3800 V6 the BEST engine ever!

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by coo

Before I switched to the Territory, I had a VP, VS, VT and VY.


VP and VS were company cars replaced at 100,000 ish
VS at 170, VY at 270.



They had absolutely minimal maintenance on them. Fluids, brakes, battery. The VY had a radiator (my fault), and replacement power steering pipes due to a shudder under warranty.


Regardless of whether you're talking Aussie built Ford or Holden, I beleive both are strong and reliable cars. I've had to replace the German build Barina at 130 and about to replace the Korean Getz at 140. The getz is becoming unreliable and the Barina simply died and wasn't worth repairing.


I have no idea what to get and the only choice is really Japanese.


It's saddening that we have lost our manufacturing industry based on some dumb desicions over the $ exchange rate...... when right now, if they kept them, they would be enjoying the reversal and we'd be a cheap but high quality manufacturer again.

Coo I'd suggest a Yaris - it's 20 year old drivetrain will just keep on going and going and going, they are tough little buzzboxes.

[Sprintey]

Dad had the VR 3.8 wagon, suffered from the timing light sender unit on harmonic balancer shutting down in heat. He had some adventures over round abouts, as the whole car including power steer and brake would shut down.

He traded it on new runout 2003 VY wagon in that wine colour. In recent years, every time I've taken it to Holden for service, they always say VY was the best.
Car now has 100,000 on it.

Now at independent mechanics, every time she takes it in, she gets an offer on it. I say no way, I'm inheriting it!

It is rougher, way rougher than our Territory (300K km). But the overall package of VY, when suspension tuned, is a very relaxing car to tootle around town in, points smoothly with some understeer, a bit of body roll (VY1), but smooth and accurate. I think Holden won the ride feel although AU had a more robust suspension. VY is great on highway as well.

You don't need the most hi tech engine, not in Australia. Those VW twin grenade motors have to have a run in the 'worst' motor awards. Driving the work van DSG in a carpark does my head in, almost dangerous how it surges. A Barra or 3.8 with auto, much nicer.

Now's the time to store and keep good examples of VS-VY and E Series/AU/BA-F sixes... If you look at how much the XY Fairmonts are valued now, they were also the most refined/reasonably well built/best drivetrains of their era...


One question for you all:


Any of you owned the L67 Supercharged Ecotec? I reckon that would be a weapon in a VS Calais.

[Swordie]

I haven't owned L67. In its day it was reviewed by journalists as the better motor compared to the 5.0. Its hard to beat the 5.0 for sound though. Its sounds better than many modern V8s.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Swordie

I haven't owned L67. In its day it was reviewed by journalists as the better motor compared to the 5.0. Its hard to beat the 5.0 for sound though. Its sounds better than many modern V8s.

L67 is weaksauce because of the undersized blower on it from factory - I think it was the Eaton M90 on it.

Though an L67 seems to be cheap as chips on eBay - would be a good motor to disappear the blower and fit a turbo to as it's already stout enough to handle boost.

I've got a 5L Caprice - the letdown is 8.4:1 compression ratio - it's lazy as and my peak power is at 4200 RPM - I'm guessing that's because of the switch over from leaded to unleaded fuel while the 304 was undergoing redesign for the VN.

It's a light weight car for its size, it's only 1550KG

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

solid clear coat, fuel flap and non saggy roof lining will pull $$$

My kids asked me the other day.. why those old commodores were all missing fuel flaps??

[Express]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

My kids asked me the other day.. why those old commodores were all missing fuel flaps??

The flap can be a bit flimsy but in many cases when the fuel flap solenoid packs it in a lot of owners don’t know how to release the flap manually which needs to be accessed from the inside by removing interior panels and such.
Simple solution is to break the flap so they can get to the fuel cap in a hurry.
That means they are then up for the price of a new solenoid with harness, a new flap and possibly paint to match.
Economics then come into play.


.

[Sprintey]

Thanks for the info on the L67, tbh the factory tune would be fine for me if I want to keep the car original more than create a drag weapon.

I see them a bit like getting a 2502V XY Fairmont, a bit under the radar.

Special mention to EL Fairmont Ghia, better product than competing Calais, better motor, XR6 driveline...

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

My kids asked me the other day.. why those old commodores were all missing fuel flaps??

Also VR-VS - the passenger airbag cover seems to peel up on every single one

[Craig@AUDI]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Also VR-VS - the passenger airbag cover seems to peel up on every single one

Safety feature, the airbag pops out faster!

[Sprintey]

haha! Yeah, if buying one, do you take the thing out, bend it around a frame & try to put back in? Put it in an oven, try to bend it to shape? Try to find the remaining 8 new-old stock ones left?

Also I did a little espionage mission in the VS and VT sections of the big Commodore forums, and there were lots of electrical gremlins mentioned that we don't see so much of in our Fords, the big ecotec one being the wire going into the alternator getting loose and shorting out everywhere.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Express

The flap can be a bit flimsy but in many cases when the fuel flap solenoid packs it in a lot of owners don’t know how to release the flap manually which needs to be accessed from the inside by removing interior panels and such.
Simple solution is to break the flap so they can get to the fuel cap in a hurry.
That means they are then up for the price of a new solenoid with harness, a new flap and possibly paint to match.
Economics then come into play.


.

VN-VZ didn't have a solenoid, they had a cable which doesn't give much trouble. The real reason is that the flaps have gotten quite brittle with age & if the owner is a bit heavy handed & opens the flap just that little but too far it snaps off at the hinge.

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Also VR-VS - the passenger airbag cover seems to peel up on every single one

VS only, the VR only got a driver's airbag. But yes, after a few years in the sun, they are not a good look.

Dr Terry

[Sprintey]

This thread shows that the 3.8 Ectoec is the best Holden 6 in recent history. As I'm not a facebooky person, would one of you be so kind as to start a

"Storm the Old Elizabeth Factory and Restart VY Commodore Production"

event?

I'll have a supercharged Calais 3.8 - as a wagon.

[roKWiz]

I'll be in that if I can order a Kingswood panel van, (Pagewood) oh I don't do facebook either.

[Sprintey]

Here's a couple of nice wrap ups for the VT-VX and VY-VZ:

https://www.shannons.com.au/club/new...e-sedans-ever/

https://www.shannons.com.au/club/new...anges-forever/

By the 'market changes forever' bit I assume that is the rise of the SUV which Ford Oz timed perfectly with the Territory.

Geez Holden screwed the pooch with the Alloytec. Just as much as they absolutely nailed excellent product planning with the VT - Ford were having their turn with the pooch with AU1 at the same time. Engineering wise, I'll have the AU any day of the week, not much fun having a car that alters its rear suspension and steers with the rear on limit (fixed VXII).

https://www.tradeuniquecars.com.au/f...-vt-vx-history

https://www.whichcar.com.au/features...rt-three-vt-vz

Not being much of a Commodore historian it's been fun to see how the cars developed. To my way of thinking these models are the modern day HQ-HZ and are significant Australian cars.

Dr Terry, do you have any info on how the mechanicals/models changed over VT to VZ? I think the major rear suspension fix was VXII as stated above.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Dr Terry, do you have any info on how the mechanicals/models changed over VT to VZ? I think the major rear suspension fix was VXII as stated above.

The list of developments from the 1st VT to the last VZ, including the Statesman, Caprice, Ute, Monaro & HSV models could fill a book, but suffice to say that they saw steady 'improvements' spread over all 4 model series, in similar fashion to XR to XY or EA to EL for example.

Some changes were the result of long-term planned designs, others were 'fixes'
like the rear suspension upgrade for VXII. Others like VZ were used to introduce new engines & transmissions for use in the next generation.

These Commodores were the result of a good mix of the German Omega & lessons learnt from Aussie upgrades to earlier Commodores. Having engines like the 3.8 V6 Ecotec, the old Holden 5.0 & 5.7 V8s, plus the LS1 V8 as power plants was a bonus.

The rear suspension was one of those 'lessons learnt'. Many believe that the rear tyre wear was caused by too much negative camber, this is not correct. This same design used on the German Opel saw no such wear, but the big difference was that our versions were heavier & far more powerful. A typical Opel Omega had a 2.0 or 3.0 N/A engine, where our base engine was 3.8 N/A with 3.8 S/C, 5.0 & 5.7 options. The cause of the tyre wear was the rear wheels 'toeing-in' when accelerating. The VXII 'toe-link' reduced this considerably.

Dr Terry

[Sprintey]

Thanks Dr Terry,

It's the same extra weight on the chassis/suspension parts that led to the one Territory foible - rebuilding the Control Blade and the front ball joints needing redesign (lived through both of those, wasn't so bad except for cost of IRS rebuild with nolathane bushes).

Since I've found this:

http://www.users.on.net/~%20nweber/c.../vx/index.html

Site gives more of a technical overview of each series, a bit like the old book "45 years of Holden" I have at home that finishes at VR.

Reading further on the net, I've come across some astounding owner fuel consumption claims, VX base model sedans getting highway consumptions in the 5's and 6's... although 7's are more typical.

Dad's VY wagon will sit on high 7's with a combined of about 8.4 last time for country and some town driving. I did Syd to Melb once in a diesel XTrail hire car and that returned high 7's, so it really makes the torquey Aussie 3.8 and 4.0 with a 4 speed auto look pretty good, considering petrol is cheaper than diesel and is far cheaper to maintain.

Has anyone here achieved 6L/100km highway figures with the Ecotec?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Thanks Dr Terry,

It's the same extra weight on the chassis/suspension parts that led to the one Territory foible - rebuilding the Control Blade and the front ball joints needing redesign (lived through both of those, wasn't so bad except for cost of IRS rebuild with nolathane bushes).

Since I've found this:

http://www.users.on.net/~%20nweber/c.../vx/index.html

Site gives more of a technical overview of each series, a bit like the old book "45 years of Holden" I have at home that finishes at VR.

Reading further on the net, I've come across some astounding owner fuel consumption claims, VX base model sedans getting highway consumptions in the 5's and 6's... although 7's are more typical.

Dad's VY wagon will sit on high 7's with a combined of about 8.4 last time for country and some town driving. I did Syd to Melb once in a diesel XTrail hire car and that returned high 7's, so it really makes the torquey Aussie 3.8 and 4.0 with a 4 speed auto look pretty good, considering petrol is cheaper than diesel and is far cheaper to maintain.

Has anyone here achieved 6L/100km highway figures with the Ecotec?

I've got a cammed 5L Caprice - I put a VT distributor in it to give it CKP and CMP sensors and converted to 8x LS2 truck coils and sequential injection from batch fire with a Wolf V550 and it dropped fuel usage from 17.5L/100km to just under 14L/100km on highway and picked up a lot of torque in part throttle driving.

The sensor resolution from a distributor for both triggers isn't the best but it works.

7L/100km would be nice but a cam and 8.4:1 compression ratio isn't a recipe for using fuel efficiently

I'm tempted to pick up an L67 Caprice as well to have some fun with.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

a bit like the old book "45 years of Holden" I have at home that finishes at VR

Do you realise that I wrote that book & its 2 sequels ?

Dr Terry

[cs123]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Do you realise that I wrote that book & its 2 sequels ?

Dr Terry

How does it end?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by cs123

How does it end?

Jesus dies and Christmas becomes about economic stimulation for the ailing retail market - Jesus died for our $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by cs123

How does it end?

The 4th book is now in production, but like Ford Aust, 2016 & 2017 weren't good years.

Dr Terry

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Do you realise that I wrote that book & its 2 sequels ?

Dr Terry

Not at all Dr Terry, I had no idea I was in the presence of my automotive literary heroes! Good on you for that, thank you so much!

Edit: has there been a VT-VZ version of the marque publishing books like HQ-WB, or XD-E-F? Those are all good references. I haven't bought any for years but would love EA-EL, AU, BA-BF and FG volumes -and all equivalent Holden ones, and would buy all keenly.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Jesus dies and Christmas becomes about economic stimulation for the ailing retail market - Jesus died for our $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Io, Saturnalia!

(much more fun)

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I've got a cammed 5L Caprice - I put a VT distributor in it to give it CKP and CMP sensors and converted to 8x LS2 truck coils and sequential injection from batch fire with a Wolf V550 and it dropped fuel usage from 17.5L/100km to just under 14L/100km on highway and picked up a lot of torque in part throttle driving.

The sensor resolution from a distributor for both triggers isn't the best but it works.

7L/100km would be nice but a cam and 8.4:1 compression ratio isn't a recipe for using fuel efficiently

I'm tempted to pick up an L67 Caprice as well to have some fun with.

Temptation sounds fun. I'm not a mechanic, but you could go more outrageous on the supercharger I am sure. Someone on one of the Shannons comments mentioned putting in the 3.2 Alfa V6, hmmm, apparently that one sounds great.

VT Calais - standard with L67? I've seen quite a few for sale with just ecotec
VX Calais - standard with L67?
VXII Calais was standard with L67, ecotec as delete option. Also L67 became optional on Acclaim and executive... does that mean I can find a supercharged Acclaim wagon somewhere?
VY Calais, standard with L67, I think.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Temptation sounds fun. I'm not a mechanic, but you could go more outrageous on the supercharger I am sure. Someone on one of the Shannons comments mentioned putting in the 3.2 Alfa V6, hmmm, apparently that one sounds great.

The 3.2 Alfa V6 is actually the much maligned Alloytec HF V6 used in the VZ/VE, Rodeo, Colorado & Captiva. The short motor was built by GMH in Melbourne & Alfa made their own heads & intake.

Originally Posted by Sprintey

VT Calais - standard with L67? I've seen quite a few for sale with just ecotec
VX Calais - standard with L67?
VXII Calais was standard with L67, ecotec as delete option. Also L67 became optional on Acclaim and executive... does that mean I can find a supercharged Acclaim wagon somewhere?
VY Calais, standard with L67, I think.

L67 availability was all over the shop. It was first released as an option for the VSII LWB models (Statesmen & Caprice) & then immediately made an option for VSII Calais, at that time.

For VTI it was also made optional for S & SS.

For VTII it was made standard for Calais & optional for S & SS & now for Berlina (sedan only)

For VXI was still standard for Calais & optional for ALL other sedans (except SS).

For VXII it was strictly limited to Calais (standard) & optional for S. It remained this way for VYI & VYII.

In all cases the Calais had the standard Ecotec as a delete option (if the L67 was standard) & also had the V8 as an extra cost option.

For VZ the Calais got the new LY7 (190 kW) Alloytec & 5-speed auto. The Ecotec & the Supercharged L67 were not fitted to any VZ.

To my knowledge the L67 was never (officially) fitted to any wagon or ute.

Dr Terry

[BENT_8]

The 3.8 in the series 1 VN Commodore was lethal in the hands of an inexperienced driver, no wonder they fitted the restrictor in I think the series 2 as combined with the 4A's 1st gear it was hard to keep traction at the sight of a drop of rain.
I've heard it said that the cone shaped restrictor resulted in the front 2 cylinders running rich as the air flow was directed to the rear of the plenum, however, I always found a Buick with it fitted had a better idle so perhaps it was a case of the front 2 were actually lean without it.
I had a S1 Berlina and put a modified restrictor in it, I made a cut horizontally across the outlet and back towards the intake and up so it looked like a scoop, this allowed full air flow whilst still directing air to the entire length of the plenum, the result was full power with balance idle.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

The 3.2 Alfa V6 is actually the much maligned Alloytec HF V6 used in the VZ/VE, Rodeo, Colorado & Captiva. The short motor was built by GMH in Melbourne & Alfa made their own heads & intake.



L67 availability was all over the shop. It was first released as an option for the VSII LWB models (Statesmen & Caprice) & then immediately made an option for VSII Calais, at that time.

For VTI it was also made optional for S & SS.

For VTII it was made standard for Calais & optional for S & SS & now for Berlina (sedan only)

For VXI was still standard for Calais & optional for ALL other sedans (except SS).

For VXII it was strictly limited to Calais (standard) & optional for S. It remained this way for VYI & VYII.

In all cases the Calais had the standard Ecotec as a delete option (if the L67 was standard) & also had the V8 as an extra cost option.

For VZ the Calais got the new LY7 (190 kW) Alloytec & 5-speed auto. The Ecotec & the Supercharged L67 were not fitted to any VZ.

To my knowledge the L67 was never (officially) fitted to any wagon or ute.

Dr Terry

They're hard to find on the second hand market too - there's one VSII Caprice in VIC on car sales - 242,000km on the clock.

Maybe the SWB stuff is easier to find.

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

The 3.2 Alfa V6 is actually the much maligned Alloytec HF V6 used in the VZ/VE, Rodeo, Colorado & Captiva. The short motor was built by GMH in Melbourne & Alfa made their own heads & intake.

To muddy your waters there, the last iteration of the legendary Busso Alfa V6 was also a 3.2, but production stopped before the Alfa 159 and Brera - they received the GM derived 3.2 you describe.

[Pis-ton broke]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

if we are talking 'best ever' then the Nissan TD42 is right up there

i reckon toyota 1hd-fte ( diesel turbo) is very good.