Nissan hits back at Porsche cheat claim

[flappist]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Yes yes,but when some little rice boy,who dreams of blow off valves while he is having his coco pops calls someones pride and joy crap I will defend it..
Besides,some may only care about straight line acelleration.
I wont buy anyting turbo personally,a car made for track work in any case,they just keep getting slower as the day goes on..

Yes I am not supporting loltastic at all. But this thread has more tangents than an advanced geometry class......

[loltastic]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Yes yes,but when some little rice boy,who dreams of blow off valves while he is having his coco pops calls someones pride and joy crap I will defend it..
Besides,some may only care about straight line acelleration.
I wont buy anyting turbo personally,a car made for track work in any case,they just keep getting slower as the day goes on..

The car in question may be the best car in the world to the owner, you, and others. But not me, that's my own opinion - I don't like old heaps. Not my cuppa tea. Not saying it's not other peoples cuppa tea, just not mine.

Better go install a new blow off valve. :

You skipped over my whole point tho and concentrated on defending a car. Flappist basically said what I said only in a more long winded way. Problems with cars that are thrashed - wow, it happens. Cars aren't bulletproof. The owner of the GTR is a moron and deserves to pay for a new transmission, but being America, the land of the free, he will probably sue Nissan and win.

[bdave351]

Hmm by loltastic and the rice boys view then all those 'old' godzilla nissans are old pieces of crap now then too.

Guess its hard to admit that your new 135,000 easily broken P.O.S gets owned off mark by a XD that can repeat it over and over again

And yes I agree with the comments that circuit wise nothing generally localy produced can cut the mustard in such company. But then if Ford put out a 150,000 4wd version of the F6 would we still be having this conversation?

[loltastic]

Originally Posted by bdave351

Hmm by loltastic and the rice boys view then all those 'old' godzilla nissans are old pieces of crap now then too.

Guess its hard to admit that your new 135,000 easily broken P.O.S gets owned off mark by a XD that can repeat it over and over again

And yes I agree with the comments that circuit wise nothing generally localy produced can cut the mustard in such company. But then if Ford put out a 150,000 4wd version of the F6 would we still be having this conversation?

Well an XD Falcon is from 1979 and the oldest of the Skylines is from 1989, so a bit of difference there. But yes, an R32 is an old heap of crap to me too. And I seriously doubt you could get a stock XD Falcon with no modifications and run it down the quarter mile in under 11.4s (GTR time) time and time again without breaking anything.

[mongoloid]

its ridiclous comparing in a wholistic way an old ford with a GTR, comparing them in similar tests is much more reasonable. After you leave the track in your old ford you suffer no aircon, crap ride and handling etc. After you leave the track in your GTR, you turn your air con on and settle into you nice leather seat, but your wallet is 150k lighter and you are starting to worry about your next trip to Nissan for a service.

I know many arguments here stem from comparing two incomparable things and this is one of them.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by loltastic

An old crap Ford isn't a good car mate, not to me. Maybe to you, but not me.

The point made initially, before you all got lost in protecting your infallable Fords, was that any car will break after constant abuse on the drivetrain. I don't care if some million year old Ford with a rattly interior and square tyres doesn't break something, I'm talking about new cars you can actually buy. Go redline clutch dump your new F6 3 times a day for the next 2 weeks and see how your clutch goes. That's my point.

The new F6 has Launch Control in the manual, which if anything extends the life of the drivetrain.

If a 351 Clevo was as highly strung as the new GTR it would be pumping out around 700hp at the wheels, probably still cost less then the Datsun.

In conclusion Nissan has gone done a certain route for the design of the GTR which I personally wouldn't support compared to Porsche who's cars can be used as either a "look at me" street car or "track day" racer. Thats what Porsche aims for and its what it often achieves. Nissan has just tried to be the best. Which is kinda like taking drugs to win a footrace, sure you win but you didn't honestley beat the competition. :

[xurbanx]

Seems like everyone here's bashing the GTR. Aren't all they doing is building a car to live up to the expectations of the badge?

Personally I'll choose to believe that the GTR completed the `Ring at 7:29. Why? It's a GTR, the guys at Nissan would've spend a truckload of funds developing this thing, not to mention benchmarking it against the heavy hitting Porsche's.

Having the mentality that whoever likes Japanese cars are "Ricer boys" is just plain ignorant and stupid.

[bdave351]

Proble is xurbanx that they did NOT build a car to live up to the expectation in that it seems very fragile AND they have had to LIE again about its performance.

You know what, Im sure they completed the ring in 7:29 too. But Im also very sure they didnt do it in a showroom standard car.

Im calling them rice boys because they are blind to any truth about the 'fully ' gtr not being the worlds best car.......hell I drive a turbo rice mobile myself these days since unfortunately fords best domestic V8 cant keep up with the competition right now.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by loltastic

The car in question may be the best car in the world to the owner, you, and others. But not me, that's my own opinion - I don't like old heaps. Not my cuppa tea. Not saying it's not other peoples cuppa tea, just not mine.

Better go install a new blow off valve. :

You skipped over my whole point tho and concentrated on defending a car. Flappist basically said what I said only in a more long winded way. Problems with cars that are thrashed - wow, it happens. Cars aren't bulletproof. The owner of the GTR is a moron and deserves to pay for a new transmission, but being America, the land of the free, he will probably sue Nissan and win.

You missed the whole point of the thread,that the times nissan are claiming are to put it lightly *unrealistic* and to put it bluntly *marketing BS*..

Something being not you cup of tea,and calling it an old heap are 2 different things,anyway you can show us all how good this car is when you buy one..

[Bad Bird]

Originally Posted by loltastic

run it down the quarter mile in under 11.4s (GTR time) time and time again without breaking anything.

The GTR can't even do that. The GTR is a mid 12s at ~ 114 mph car without launch control.

Originally Posted by loltastic

But yes, an R32 is an old heap of crap to me too

I knew you people would jump ship when your precious cars became old. Why? The R32 was the best of the breed, as it was the lightest. New cars are too heavy.

[flappist]

I reckon that if I started a thread on the price of eggs in Iceland it would end up as V8 eggs are better than turbo eggs and turbo eggs break more easily......

[Bad Bird]

It has nothing to do with with V8s and turbos; it is more to do with Nissan being dishonest.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Bad Bird

It has nothing to do with with V8s and turbos; it is more to do with Nissan being dishonest.

Well that was the case until the usual skirmishes started.....

The facts as I see them:

Nissan did a run on the Northern Ring and claimed it was faster than Porsche.

Porsche said "liar liar pants on fire" because they could not match it in a GTR they bought.

Nissan have yet to respond either with "hey this is us doing it again with umpty zillion witnesses" or "oops, sprung".

All the rest is malcontents with differing agenda sparing and attempting to make virtual personal attacks while staying within the T&C of AFF.

This is not uncommon.
How many LS1 or BOSS owners were sure that a F6 was slower because they or their mate drove one once and could not get it to launch.
How many BA XR6T owners were sure the BA GT was slower for the same reason.

Nissan will either back this up and Porsche will look like dorks or fail and then Nissan will look like dorks.

It is interesting that the time is not is question, only the "stockness". Looking back over AFF you can find several threads where the term "stock" does not count tyres, CAI, removed spare tyre, seats, "anything heavy", fueled with "secret herbs and spices" and driven by a midget.

All part of the fun of AFF

[TZENU]

Porsche bought a GTR, fresh off the showroom from the US and raced it on the ring. They only got a 7:54 (+25min)and their 911 covered it in 7:34 (+5sec).

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...6?OpenDocument



I wonder if nissan would be prepared to do the test again in front of Porsche

[loltastic]

Originally Posted by Bad Bird

The GTR can't even do that. The GTR is a mid 12s at ~ 114 mph car without launch control.



I knew you people would jump ship when your precious cars became old. Why? The R32 was the best of the breed, as it was the lightest. New cars are too heavy.

Why would you NOT use launch control? That's like taking a manual car to the strip and not launching it, or not stalling up an auto. There's a bajillion clips on the net of the GTR doing mid 11's @ 116-120mph.

You people? Huh? I'm a car enthusiast. New cars are too heavy, this is true.

Nissan have basically come out now and said that Porsche don't know how to drive a GTR and would offer them some driving lessons. It just seems like Porsche are carrying on like a kid whose lollipop got stolen.

To Nissan and Porsche. Get your best 2 drivers in a 911 Turbo and GTR respectively, put them side by side at the ring, same day, empty track, and go at it hammer n tongs. Settle it.

[bdave351]

Nissan coming out and saying Porsche cant drive has to be the most stupid reply since OJ.

Anyone who thinks that Nissan drivers can defy the laws of physics while porsche drivers are only fit to drive Ms Daisy around need to go back to school (if they arent still there)

As for the launch control? Six times and my new GTR is on the back of a tow truck? haha I wont be worried at all next to one in my T even as no one can afford to use it.

[Bad Bird]

Originally Posted by loltastic

Why would you NOT use launch control?

Because it voids warranty.

[loltastic]

Originally Posted by bdave351

Nissan coming out and saying Porsche cant drive has to be the most stupid reply since OJ.

Anyone who thinks that Nissan drivers can defy the laws of physics while porsche drivers are only fit to drive Ms Daisy around need to go back to school (if they arent still there)

As for the launch control? Six times and my new GTR is on the back of a tow truck? haha I wont be worried at all next to one in my T even as no one can afford to use it.

I said Nissan have said Porsche don't know how to drive a GTR, not that they don't know how to drive.

Will show tyres and video as evidence, offers Porsche driving tips

Nissan is standing firm on its claim to the production car lap record at the Nurburgring despite a blistering attack from Porsche.

And it has the tyres to prove it.

The German sports car maker accused Nissan of using special semi-race tyres when it set the Nurburgring benchmark at 7 minutes 29 seconds in April but the Japanese company is now going public with the actual Dunlop SP Sport 600 DSST CTT tyres used for the hot lap.

It is also offering video footage shot by the Japanese magazine 'Best Motoring" during the high-speed runs.

Nissan has also questioned the preparation of the customer GT-R used by Porsche for its in-house testing last month, where it claimed it could not get within 25 seconds of the Nissan time and that its 911 GT2 and Turbo were both quicker.

And, in a back-handed slap at Porsche, it has offered driving tips for anyone trying to get the best from a GT-R.

The man who led development of the Nissan supercar, chief engineer, Kazutoshi Mizuno, says the lap record car is a regular production GT-R.

“Testing a car with specialized parts such as unique tires or suspension has no meaning for us. The GT-R was designed from the start to be a supercar that could be driven anywhere, anytime and by anyone. For us, testing the car in standard production specification is far more relevant than creating a one-off vehicle that our customers cannot buy," Mizuno says.

Nissan has taken nearly a week to assemble the evidence it says clearly refutes the Porsche claims.

It has even offered to show the actual tyres from the record run, which were taken back by Sumitomo in Japan for promotional work, to prove they are identical to the rubber fitted to production cars.

"It is clear that there are some important facts that were not accurately represented," Nissan says in its official press release on the Porsche claims.

It states that the record run, by former F1 driver Toshio Suzuki, was even compromised by carrying around 50 kilograms of data logging equipment supplied by Marelli and camera equipment.

Without attacking Porsche directly, it has also questioned everything from the tyres on the customer car its rival used to its preparation and the skill of the driver - who Porsche describes as one of its chassis test engineers.

Nissan says there are two types of tyre fitted to the GT-R, and the clear inference from its reference to the Bridgestone Potenza RE070R is that these were fitted to the Porsche-run GT-R and not as quick on a track as the Dunlops it uses.

It has also indirectly questioned the preparation of Porsche's car by referring to the run-in and service procedure, as well as the special technique for driving the all-wheel drive supercar.

"We are aware that several auto makers have purchased the GT-R for their own testing and evaluation. Like all GT-R customers, we recommend that any auto maker buying a GT-R should follow the recommended run-in procedures, service schedules and maintenance to ensure the maximum performance from their car," Nissan says.

"In addition, we offer performance driving courses for prospective and current GT-R owners to help them get the best performance from their car. We would welcome the opportunity to help any auto manufacturer with understanding the full capabilities of the GT-R."

Nissan has gone into great detail on its work with the GT-R at the Nurburgring, including documenting its various track tests earlier this year and the method - the same one used by Sport Auto Magazine in Germany - it used to time the car.

And Mizuno even says the Nurburgring lap record was not the prime objective of the GT-R program.

“We have used circuits like the Nurburgring and Sendai extensively during the development of the GT-R. The fastest lap-time was never the objective but a simple parameter for us to measure the GT-R in a consistent way against other world class supercars," he says.

Where is this use Launch control 6 times and it's buggered nonsense coming from? Plenty of guys use it all the time at the drag strip - just because one idiot broke his gearbox doesn't mean they're all the same and doesn't mean they're fragile. If we used that method of thinking, then all Falcons brakes are absolute rubbish because the BA's had a problem with warping discs.

[loltastic]

Originally Posted by Bad Bird

Because it voids warranty.

That's true, it does. But for the point of doing a quarter mile run, what does that have to do with anything? The car will do an 11 second quarter, with launch control and a low 12 without it.

[schnoods]

Originally Posted by xurbanx

Seems like everyone here's bashing the GTR. Aren't all they doing is building a car to live up to the expectations of the badge?

Personally I'll choose to believe that the GTR completed the `Ring at 7:29. Why? It's a GTR, the guys at Nissan would've spend a truckload of funds developing this thing, not to mention benchmarking it against the heavy hitting Porsche's.

Having the mentality that whoever likes Japanese cars are "Ricer boys" is just plain ignorant and stupid.

It isnt bashing the GTR, its more or less having a go at it being "that" fast.

Its a quick bit of gear, I have seen it down the motorplex do a 11 second quarter, its that quick.

But when people take it as a gospel that they can run a lap on a track in 7.29 while saying thats how they are off the shelf is another can of worms. Then porsche come along and try it for themselves and cant get anywhere near it. Its more than a set of tyres to get that time.

Then there are the people who have fallen in love with the car and putting posters all over their wall, who will defend it to the day it ever gets proven otherwise. Im surprised no one has gone back to the days of bathurst and bringing in the V8 supercars series arguement, etc to try and prove the GTR is unbeatable.

When a case where a new GTR is on the back of a truck because of hard launching people get all defensive over it, saying It happens and Your not supposed to do it that often.

[Bad Bird]

Originally Posted by loltastic

Where is this use Launch control 6 times and it's buggered nonsense coming from?

GTR factory manual.

It isnt bashing the GTR, its more or less having a go at it being "that" fast.

The main problem I have against the GTR is that Nissan are pulling the same rubbish they did last time they ran a ringer at the Nurburgring. Nissan have no qualms with being sneaky and underhanded. History just repeats itself.

[bdave351]

Originally Posted by loltastic

I said Nissan have said Porsche don't know how to drive a GTR, not that they don't know how to drive.

Its just a car, not a interplanetary starship taking the hopes of the human race to place far far from home.

If its that bloody hard to drive a 4wd weighting 1750kg with as much power as a mildly modded T then porsche should give up all racing and car development and wind up the white flag (the one with a little sun in the middle) to the warp driver over boost power that is "Gawd zilla"

[mr_xr8]

some more fuel to the fire out:

http://www.gtrblog.com/index.php/200...iving-t?blog=4

[schnoods]

The main problem I have against the GTR is that Nissan are pulling the same rubbish they did last time they ran a ringer at the Nurburgring. Nissan have no qualms with being sneaky and underhanded. History just repeats itself.

Exactly mate. Nail on the head.

Then the skyline fans get all antsy over how much better the GTR is and how much cheaper it is...

[Bad Bird]

some more fuel to the fire

http://www.gtrblog.com/index.php/20...riving-t?blog=4

That isn't fuel to the fire. That is Nissan going "Nuh uh". Nissan need to bring the tech.

[mr_xr8]

Originally Posted by Bad Bird

That isn't fuel to the fire. That is Nissan going "Nuh uh". Nissan need to bring the tech.

i believe porsche said nuh un
where nissan said yeah eh

[AusM]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

This GTR thing is rapidly turning into what appears to be a one lap wonder.....
Early signs are it'll be more fragile than a T series owner's ego... (joking ok!)
Grab a GT2 and GTR, 100 laps of Lemans, lets see who makes the distance...

A 24 year old recently won Targa West in a GTR he didn't even have comp practice time in. Funnily enough he also couldn't work out why others didn't listen to music while they raced and he prepared for stages by listening to Speed Racer in the pits at volume and annoying the oldies!

[loltastic]

Originally Posted by bdave351

Its just a car, not a interplanetary starship taking the hopes of the human race to place far far from home.

If its that bloody hard to drive a 4wd weighting 1750kg with as much power as a mildly modded T then porsche should give up all racing and car development and wind up the white flag (the one with a little sun in the middle) to the warp driver over boost power that is "Gawd zilla"

Different cars drive differently and behave differently on the limit. Apparently with the new GTR you have to get on the power as you hit the apex of a corner and let the car start to slide out and let the cars computers sort out the yaw and pitch of the car. It's not a stretch to think that the Formula 1 driver Nissan used in all its ring testing and for its fast laps knew the car better than the driver Porsche used. Nissan claimed to have done thousands of laps with Mr. Suzuki in the drivers seat. Who knows if they cheated or not, who cares. Ring times are a moot point IMO. The thing that is terrible is when people just jump on the bandwagon that Nissan are cheating rar rar. They might be.

I find that transmission replacement picture hilarious. I'm not a GTR fanboy BTW, I couldn't really care about the car, I think it's a sweet ride and would own one, I'm more concerned with peoples attitudes towards certain events and the way things unfold.

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by bdave351

Its just a car, not a interplanetary starship taking the hopes of the human race to place far far from home.

If its that bloody hard to drive a 4wd weighting 1750kg with as much power as a mildly modded T then porsche should give up all racing and car development and wind up the white flag (the one with a little sun in the middle) to the warp driver over boost power that is "Gawd zilla"

Brunno Senna went 5 seconds faster on a wet/damp track in the GTR than the Porsche engineer in the dry. I'd question the driver's efforts too.

[Bad Bird]

The thing that is terrible is when people just jump on the bandwagon that Nissan are cheating rar rar

Uh, my opinion is made up due to a 40 page thread on Corner-Carvers.com, perhaps the most technically switched-on suspension forum on the internet.

You know what, I'm not going to bother with this. The GTR is not a crappy car by any stretch of the imagination, but I truly believe that anything claimed by Nissan should be taken with a grain of salt.