V8SC Hypothetical

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im not sure how to vote on this, with the heart or with the head, the answers would be miles apart......

On a slight tangent if V8SC's are dead how come race attendances and TV ratings are up nearly 10% on last year?

The real question is what they will be like this time next year, I am tipping they will be down. In this house, recent events were the last straw.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by MO

Ok gotcha,then why aren't the sponsors etc pushing it in the media to try and build a following/fan base.
This is where the V8SC have got the game sewn up their pushing their product and hard.

Agreed. Looking at the line up in there its actually quite good.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

The real question is what they will be like this time next year, I am tipping they will be down. In this house, recent events were the last straw.

Maybe.. but then again there are more holden bogans out there than Ford.... and if holden start winning again ratings and crowd numbers could potentially climb....
I hate to say it but the series is extremely popular as far as motorsport categories go...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im not sure how to vote on this, with the heart or with the head, the answers would be miles apart......

On a slight tangent if V8SC's are dead how come race attendances and TV ratings are up nearly 10% on last year?

That is part of the hypothetical.

IF Ford withdrew would V8SC be dead?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by MO

Ok gotcha,then why aren't the sponsors etc pushing it in the media to try and build a following/fan base.
This is where the V8SC have got the game sewn up their pushing their product and hard.

Fans determine where sponsors spend their money, sponsors want the biggest bang for their buck, if the pcca was popular or worth the effort sponsors would support it, fact is it isnt a patch on V8sc for value or entertainment so it will never work...

[MO]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Fans determine where sponsors spend their money, sponsors want the biggest bang for their buck, if the pcca was popular or worth the effort sponsors would support it, fact is it isnt a patch on V8sc for value or entertainment so it will never work...

Ok while I was waiting for this to load(site is slow?) I just saw an ad on tv for Home hardware...'are you a V8SC expert' win $500.00 gift/dollars take the quiz.
V8SC keep changing,venues,regs etc it keeps an interest for some and they also push the sponsors.
You own a business how hard do you push for customers.
For me its become somewhat monotenous all you see is a freight train going round the track as some one else said'bring back the biff' but V8SC have ruled that out,you cant do that anymore. Mind you R.Kelly seems to now and again.
Anyway back to the point of the hypothetical..'if Ford pulled out would you..'

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Fans determine where sponsors spend their money, sponsors want the biggest bang for their buck, if the pcca was popular or worth the effort sponsors would support it, fact is it isnt a patch on V8sc for value or entertainment so it will never work...

Your right, for pcca to work it would need alot of people to start watching the category. I guess one would need to ask the people who bag V8SC and say bring back production car racing, do they go and watch it? If enough people moved over then we know where the money would go.

[MO]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Your right, for pcca to work it would need alot of people to start watching the category. I guess one would need to ask the people who bag V8SC and say bring back production car racing, do they go and watch it? If enough people moved over then we know where the money would go.

But first ppl have got to know its there and how good it is.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by MO

But first ppl have got to know its there and how good it is.

It wouldn't be easy to do as V8SC is big. It would need a few things to get it running. Unfortunately I don't see it happening.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

After all the media hype over the 888 transfer to Holden and a review of the costs of sponsoring the V8supercircus FORD have decided enough is enough.

As of the end of this season Ford are pulling out of V8SC completely and FPR will concentrate its efforts on other events.

They have announced the FPR drag team, the FPR drift team and the FPR production racing team.

In addition they are partially financing "Australian Touring Series", a series of events held all over the country that are loosely based on the spirit of the pre 1970 competition, that is, the cars raced must be based DIRECTLY of ones that are sold to the public.

The V8SC ringmaster huffs and puffs and then announces that V8SC will include a new model next year, BMW.

Do you this this is a good idea and will you rise to the events or will you remain a V8SC fan.

Ok.. im trying to get my head around how to answer this interesting and good question without upsetting the fanbois and bogans...

Your hypothetical first: "If" Ford pulled out of V8SC im not sure much would change unless the Ford teams stopped running Falcons.. to be honest with the COF (car of the future) 2 years away it might be playing into TC's hands for the single chassis catagory that he wants with the tribal emphasis on teams and driver rivalry, and the manufacturers fade into the background.

"If" FPR left V8SC and invested in drifting, drag racing, and prody racing they might as well throw a massive staff party with the money because the ROI from those minor categories would be abysmal....

Would i like to see prody racing come back? my heart says sure id Love to see it, bring on homologation specials again like the GTHO!!!

Do i think it would work? now the brain kicks in... not a hope in hell, Group C and later on Group A were total farces... im not sure why people want a return to a class of racing that allows 1 make to completely dominate year on year till another make out guzumps them to dominate themselves, then everyone fights and squabbles over parity..., the car companies hated it because if forced them to build factory racers, only the rich euro makes could compete on that level, FPV/HSV wouldnt stand a chance.

Prody racing already exists, if people think its a good idea go and watch it and support it, but take a good book with you, because you could read a chapter between laps and passes....

[MO]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im not sure how to vote on this, with the heart or with the head, the answers would be miles apart......

On a slight tangent if V8SC's are dead how come race attendances and TV ratings are up nearly 10% on last year?

So have you voted yet??

[flappist]

In this hypothetical Ford withdraw completely including the license to use it trademarks and shapes.

In the new production rules there is a limit to the max price of the car AND a minumum number need to be sold IN AUSTRALIA to retail end user customers before the model is eligible.
e.g. if the number is 300 then 300 EVO X or BMW 335i or whatever have to be sold and delivered in AUSTRALIA before that model can be raced.
This will also prevent another "7 litre monaro" debacle.
Of the other hand, if there had not been 300 FG GTs sold before Jan 1 2009 then only the BF2 would be allowed.
You can't have one without the other.

With regard to the lap times, sprint tracks will not be an issue although Bathurst may. Still, if your attention span is less than ten seconds then there is always WSID....

[MO]

Ah good old homolagation,umm will polarisers be allowed??

[minheim]

For my part I too have slowly been losing interest in the series. Increasingly i tape it and fast forward it or like today just bin the recording I'd much rather see a series like the v8 Brutes but sedan based. Surely that would be a better formula for the future cheaper to run, closer racing and we could get rid of sprint tyres, compulsory pitstops, minimum fuel stops etc. Indeed it might be so close to real cars that the big spending euros might leave because they can't realise a technology advantage. A lower cost formula would also allow more cars and sponsors; heck we might even see individual Ford dealers co -sponsoring like in the late 60s/early 70s. Imagine if the current crop of drivers had to nurse cars in enduros like Moffat and Brock had to and if we had fields of 40 plus.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

In this hypothetical Ford withdraw completely including the
license to use it trademarks and shapes.

In the new production rules there is a limit to the max price of the car AND a minumum number need to be sold IN AUSTRALIA to retail end user customers before the model is eligible.
e.g. if the number is 300 then 300 EVO X or BMW 335i or whatever have to be sold and delivered in AUSTRALIA before that model can be raced.
This will also prevent another "7 litre monaro" debacle.
Of the other hand, if there had not been 300 FG GTs sold before Jan 1 2009 then only the BF2 would be allowed.
You can't have one without the other.

....

Im not against homologation specials... trust me, id absolutely love to see FPV and HSV lock horns with showroom racers again!!
But the brain tells me FPV/HSV wont build them and Comrade kev would just kill them off....

Originally Posted by flappist

With regard to the lap times, sprint tracks will not be an issue although Bathurst may. Still, if your attention span is less than ten seconds then there is always WSID....

im not touching that one.... maybe FPV will bring out the first performancecar without a steeringwheel....

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im not against homologation specials... trust me, id absolutely love to see FPV and HSV lock horns with showroom racers again!!
But the brain tells me FPV/HSV wont build them and Comrade kev would just kill them off....
im not touching that one.... maybe FPV will bring out the first performancecar without a steeringwheel....

New meaning to the word 'rail' car Norm :
But i agree bring back Homologation specials love to see it all though i bet my left it wont happen.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ok.. im trying to get my head around how to answer this interesting and good question without upsetting the fanbois and bogans...

Your hypothetical first: "If" Ford pulled out of V8SC im not sure much would change unless the Ford teams stopped running Falcons.. to be honest with the COF (car of the future) 2 years away it might be playing into TC's hands for the single chassis catagory that he wants with the tribal emphasis on teams and driver rivalry, and the manufacturers fade into the background.

"If" FPR left V8SC and invested in drifting, drag racing, and prody racing they might as well throw a massive staff party with the money because the ROI from those minor categories would be abysmal....

Would i like to see prody racing come back? my heart says sure id Love to see it, bring on homologation specials again like the GTHO!!!

Do i think it would work? now the brain kicks in... not a hope in hell, Group C and later on Group A were total farces... im not sure why people want a return to a class of racing that allows 1 make to completely dominate year on year till another make out guzumps them to dominate themselves, then everyone fights and squabbles over parity..., the car companies hated it because if forced them to build factory racers, only the rich euro makes could compete on that level, FPV/HSV wouldnt stand a chance.

Prody racing already exists, if people think its a good idea go and watch it and support it, but take a good book with you, because you could read a chapter between laps and passes....

You've hit the nail on the head.

Originally Posted by geckoGT

A good one as usual Flappist.

Tori and I were talking yesterday after we saw Jamie say the fans will follow them to Holden, these guys need to get in touch with reality.

V8SC need to also get in touch with reality, they are in serious trouble here. Their category is based solely on the ford vs holden thing, as enforced by it being a 2 manufacturer series. Now that the series will be 2/3 holden next year and the only ford backed outfit is not really that competitive, that spells trouble.

We are also pretty over V8SC at the moment and have been since the cars have increasingly gotten further and further away from what we can actually buy. I personally would welcome a category where modified road cars are raced and I can identify with what is parked in my driveway, not some ground up race car that shares no common components except a few body panels.

Now I just have to figure out if I should remove the craig lowndes signature off our steering wheel.

Good post.

The problem is, for the great majority of people who pay to watch, they're not concerned about the reality of these cars, that they're identical except for the badge and shell.

What brings them to watch, or what they're interested in, I have no eye deer.

Maybe it's the "tribal" thing, Ford v Holden, which is dying by the look of it. Maybe it's just watching big V8s running about all day. It could be the popular drivers.

Or it could be, as JW would tell you, that some people love Vodafone, or something poofy like that.

I'm sure there are plenty more reasons.

For me personally, as soon as one marque or team starts dominating, it becomes boring. Or when "racing" isn't encouraged, it gets boring. I like to see good close racing, and where it's anybody's cc till the end of the year.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by MO

Ah good old homolagation,umm will polarisers be allowed??

Of course that will make the cars be as fast as V8SC's!!!

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Fans determine where sponsors spend their money, sponsors want the biggest bang for their buck, if the pcca was popular or worth the effort sponsors would support it, fact is it isnt a patch on V8sc for value or entertainment so it will never work...

Perhaps, but if the Production Car class was actually promoted AND given more airtime on Tv, I believe it would be just as successful. Sponsors are usually late comers...they jump on the bandwagon AFTER it has started rolling...usually...As a techno nerd I love V8 Super Taxis as a sport or category unto itself but what I do find frustrating is the musical chairs that has beset the sport due to the massive dollar and elitism component. It's a great formula and excellent sport...but one that has lost it's lustre for me. It now has nothing to do with it's origins and should not be promoted as such.

I grew up with improved production and it is what gave me the sentimental attachment made me a lifelong Ford devotee as I could (to all intents and purposes) buy the winning race car on Monday after the race.

I would MUCH rather support (and do now) a Improved Production class as I can MORE readily identify with the gadgetry regardless as to whether Ford are looking a bit average compared to the AWD/Turbo component.

Make a better car...that's why you race isn't it? To improve the breed for the average punter? Not just throw money at an elite category which is now as relevant to me as a billycart is to Formula 1.

Just my 2c.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by platinumXR

Perhaps, but if the Production Car class was actually promoted AND given more airtime on Tv, I believe it would be just as successful. Sponsors are usually late comers...they jump on the bandwagon AFTER it has started rolling...usually...As a techno nerd I love V8 Super Taxis as a sport or category unto itself but what I do find frustrating is the musical chairs that has beset the sport due to the massive dollar and elitism component. It's a great formula and excellent sport...but one that has lost it's lustre for me. It now has nothing to do with it's origins and should not be promoted as such.

I grew up with improved production and it is what gave me the sentimental attachment made me a lifelong Ford devotee as I could (to all intents and purposes) buy the winning race car on Monday after the race.

I would MUCH rather support (and do now) a Improved Production class as I can MORE readily identify with the gadgetry regardless as to whether Ford are looking a bit average compared to the AWD/Turbo component.

Make a better car...that's why you race isn't it? To improve the breed for the average punter? Not just throw money at an elite category which is now as relevant to me as a billycart is to Formula 1.

Just my 2c.

Its chicken and egg stuff, why would sponsors and TV jump on board a series that's seen as amateur/backyard and no where near as professional as V8SC?
Unless the "product" is right it won't get attention, there are hundreds of amateur sports nationally that would kill for TV or corporate sponsorship but will never get it as well because it just isnt as popular....

The early concept of Bathurst in the 60's and early 70's WAS that, a reliability test where Manufacturers could showcase their products and gain reputation for speed and reliability, and DNA could filter off the track into production vehicles, that's what Bathurst used to be about....
The Bathurst 12 hr still exists, but it has only got "enthusiast" interest because there are more exciting classes to watch AKA V8SC...
The product already exists, but its upto fans to support it first.....

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Its chicken and egg stuff, why would sponsors and TV jump on board a series that's seen as amateur/backyard and no where near as professional as V8SC?

The early concept of Bathurst in the 60's and early 70's WAS that, a reliability test where Manufacturers could showcase their products and gain reputation for speed and reliability, and DNA could filter off the track into production vehicles, that's what Bathurst used to be about....

The Bathurst 12 hr still exists, but it has only got "enthusiast" interest because there are more exciting classes to watch AKA V8SC...
The product already exists, but its upto fans to support it first.....

Proving my point as to why I have lost interest and I suspect countless others.

Bathurst 12 hour is lucky, VERY LUCKY to get 2 hours of highlights at the best of times. True motorsport fans (of the PCCA and other similar) will go, watch and be enthused and will not even notice this ripple in the general scheme of things with regard to the V8SC.

You hit the nail on the head with the product already existing but it needs the support of the fans, it's not that PCCA is less exciting than V8 Commodore Cup, it's just that the multimedia juggernaut that wafts along with it [V8SC] tells (the majority) of non-technical, non-Red or Blue which is "the best racing to watch and/or be a part of"...not exactly brainwashing...but...

The point I am making is that this evolution category (and that is what it is) tries to keep fans by tugging at the heart strings with war stories of battles past with glorious machinery which are totally irrelevant in respect to current weaponry and deeds ensued. Chalk and cheese. How can a V8 Supercar be relevant to an XR6 Turbo? Flop molded body shell and a badge are not all that impressive to a potential buyer really except by trying to evoke misty eyed rhetoric of days of yore.

V8 Supercars has always been marketed as an allegiance sport/category, one or the other ...that's why they got booed on Sunday.

[Powdered Toast Man]

Originally Posted by MO

So wheres the ads on tv and radio and in the paper??

It was well promoted when the class was first established and even supported some of the big races at the time like Indy, F1 and I think even the V8s.

Obviously the interest wasn't there to keep it in the spotlight. Don't get me wrong I would like to see it flourish myself but the fan base just isn't there.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man

It was well promoted when the class was first established and even supported some of the big races at the time like Indy, F1 and I think even the V8s.

Obviously the interest wasn't there to keep it in the spotlight. Don't get me wrong I would like to see it flourish myself but the fan base just isn't there.

That is true... ive been to a few meetings and its simply boring, too much performance difference between all the cars and not much "racing"....

Don't forget that the reason we've ended up with the current V8SC formula is because of the failures of previous category formulas...

As i said i'm not against production class racing at all, and id love to see FPV and HSV build homologation specials again, but unless they govern it like the V8SC series or Utes with parity adjustments its just plain boring...

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

but unless they govern it like the V8SC series or Utes with parity adjustments its just plain boring...

Well then what's the point?

Parity means you might as well make it an all or one make make race. What's the difference...a badge? British Telecom plastered all over it? That would make me rush out and but one...but...what is it? a Toyota?

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Don't forget that the reason we've ended up with the current V8SC formula is because of the failures of previous category formulas...

As i said i'm not against production class racing at all, and id love to see FPV and HSV build homologation specials again, but unless they govern it like the V8SC series or Utes with parity adjustments its just plain boring...

Exactly, it's working.

The V8's are racecars they aren't going to have much in common with a road car. As long as the engine and body are branded, its alright.

A shift to production car racing won't mean well have production specials either. They would be watered down, as much as its everyones love to see a racing verison of the GT sold. What level of homologation special are we talking anyway? Something like a GT3RS with rollcage? or a car with some red recaros and a 't'wing, and a GT-RS sticker...

If ford pulled out its commitment to the V8's it will be the AU days allover again,,,,

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by platinumXR

Well then what's the point?

Parity means you might as well make it an all or one make make race. What's the difference...a badge? British Telecom plastered all over it? That would make me rush out and but one...but...what is it? a Toyota?

There is no point...

Without parity the racing is boring and every one crys "unfair" because 1 make dominates.....

Group C and Group A failed miserably for 2 reasons: Ford and Holden didnt want to have to make homologation specials and the racing was boring because 1 make always dominated in a whitewash till the rules reeled them in, which meant the off track politics, squabbling, bitching and fighting was out of control...

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

There is no point...

Without parity the racing is boring and every one crys "unfair" because 1 make dominates.....

Group C and Group A failed miserably for 2 reasons: Ford and Holden didnt want to have to make homologation specials and the racing was boring because 1 make always dominated in a whitewash till the rules reeled them in, which meant the off track politics, squabbling, bitching and fighting was out of control...

I guess we'll be forever polarized on this issue as I believe exactly the same reasons why parity causes whingeing, bitching and squabbling already.

One manufacturer does not want to be shown up by bringing an inferior product to the race track, so instead of actually creating a comparable opponent...they whine like a 4 year old that they have not got the same spoiler, diffuser or whatever and they are taking their bat and ball home in a huff if they can't have the same one.

Doesn't resemble competition to me.

I thought Group A & C failed because Holden and Ford got sick of being flogged by Nissan and whomever else turned up to compete...so they just shut everyone out and basked in their own glory. I suppose it's (PCAA) boring because Ford are not dominating and getting their butt's handed to them by turbo 4's much to MY DISMAY too as I am a Ford devotee as well.

As I should have said: it only reinforces my view as to why I could care less about the current category after this incident as they are just advertising space on wheels and neither component or driver loyalties mean anything to anyone, anymore.

[greenfoam]

Holden fans have been sick of V8 SC since 1996, suprised it's taken 888 leaving for the Ford guys to wake up to this . Something similar to Group C is the only way foreward and has been for along time. The only thing they need to make sure of is that there will be base model racing only and no "Race specials"

[flappist]

Guys.....

Remember this is just a hypothetical not real life. I made the whole thing up.

It is an event from an alternate universe (flappiverse) designed to stimulate conversation on what might be the result if this did infact actually happen.

[MO]

Originally Posted by flappist

Guys.....

Remember this is just a hypothetical not real life. I made the whole thing up.

It is an event from an alternate universe (flappiverse) designed to stimulate conversation on what might be the result if this did infact actually happen.

Don't you just love the way things evolve,much like chinese whispers or in this case flappist whispers.