Hypothetical-would Ford be in better position if it had FG wagon instead of Territory

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by kahless351

Ford will be releasing the 7 seater Ranger Wagon soon, what does this mean to Territory if the price is comparable?

2 different cars .... 1 is a true 4x4, the other is a soft SUV. In saying that though the Everest has been for sale in RHD countries for years and has never made it to these shores. Even when the old Ranger was selling well. Hopefully the new one makes it here this time round. Would complete the line up!

[joolz]

I would have loved to buy an FG wagon if they were produced as the Territory was too big for my needs. So i was forced to go the sedan. I think the LWB was an option Ford didnt want anymore hence the Fairlane also gone.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by kahless351

Ford will be releasing the 7 seater Ranger Wagon soon, what does this mean to Territory if the price is comparable?

Well, Toyota seem to be able to make it work with the Kluger and Prado tag team. So I see it as Ford dishing out some of Toyota's own medicine.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by joolz

I would have loved to buy an FG wagon if they were produced as the Territory was too big for my needs. So i was forced to go the sedan. I think the LWB was an option Ford didnt want anymore hence the Fairlane also gone.

So what was wrong with the mondeo wagon, it is about the same size internally as a BF Wagon?

[Itsme]

Take away the terri & I still think the wagon would be a flop in sales, it out priced itself for what you got.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by joolz

I would have loved to buy an FG wagon if they were produced as the Territory was too big for my needs. So i was forced to go the sedan. I think the LWB was an option Ford didnt want anymore hence the Fairlane also gone.

Do you realise the Territory is actually shorter than a Falcon sedan?

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Do you realise the Territory is actually shorter than a Falcon sedan?

It's actually shorter than the Falcon wagon!

[Bossxr8]

By a long way. When I first bought mine and put it in the garage I was shocked how much shorter it actually was compared to the BA XR8 I traded in on it.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by wildrider

that's my biggest problem with the commodore sportswagon is the useless cargo space. the VZ had a bigger cargo area. I doubt a FG wagon would help sales. the wagon days are over as these people are going for SUVs nowdays. I just hope if there is another falcon wagon (highly unlikely). it wont be a sportswagon like holden have.

A few points to cover here....

I have compared my BF2 with the Sportswagons we have at work.... All VE's are made on (what would traditionally be considered) a LWB (it's virtually the same as the Falcon Wagon's)... this gives the VE Sedan and S-wagon more legroom for the back seat passengers (think "Fairlane" legroom more than "Falcon").... and allows the front seat to move back further without crushing the rear passenger's legs (Better for many of the really tall, over 6ft Drivers out there)... but this space is then lost to the cargo area. The Falcon Wagon has traditionally been built on the same (& in latter years, similar) wheelbase as the Fairlane... but it's back seat possition has always been set up the same as the standard SWB Falcon (ie: same legroom as a normal Falcon). Not as good for the rear passengers... but the extra space goes directly into the cargo area.
The VE S-wagon also has a shorter rear overhang than the Falcon Wagon.. add to that the sloping "sports roof" (which does look cool), and the enclosed side panels (to house the battery etc..)... then the S-Wagon starts to loose out in many ways to the much larger load capacity of the Falcon Wagon.
VE's coil sprung IRS rear end may deliver a better ride and handling package than the Falcon's leaf sprung rear end (which I doubt the average punter could really pick much difference, in "normal" drivng terms)... but it loses out to the Falcon Wagon in load carrying capability terms. So... as a Wagon.. the VE has less load space (seat's up or down) and can legally carry a lot less too ! As a Wagon.. the Falcon's ability to seat 5 people, carry a good sized load and tow a fair weight too, made it an ideal all-rounder !
Looking at the S-Wagon... I reckon it's the sort of vehicle you would get if you crossed a Falcon Wagon with a Territory (if you get my drift !??)

Something else to consider... not everyone updates their car every 2 - 3 yrs.... it could be 5 - 10 yrs for many !??? With that in mind.... there could be many traditional Falcon Wagon buyers out there, who are now looking to upgrade their current Wagon... so if Ford was to consider making, say, an FG version of the "traditional" Falcon Wagon... there could be many people who would now be ready to buy one !?? After all.. there isn't any "real" alternative for it elsewhere !

If the new 7 seat Ranger Wagon does start stealing a lot of sales away from the Terry... this could leave room for the re-introduction of a Falcon Wagon (??) albeit on whatever "1 Ford" platform that may apear ? Maybe??

Remember... the "Aussie" Falcon started out as an Australian built Amarican car.... and that "heratige" was still evident in all Falcon's right up until the release of the EA! There's nothing yet to say that the next "all new" Falcon in 2016 can't start that "tradition" all over again !?? If you listen to the rhetoric coming out of Holden lately... that's the way they'll be going with the next "all new" Commodore around the same time frame!???

What Ford end up doing... only time will tell... But as a BIG fan of the Falcon.. and Wagon especially... I am certainly hoping they will start making something like the Wagon again !!

As before... these are just my thoughts !

[Road_Warrior]

If they wanted to really do it and do it on a budget, they could have carried over the EA169 LWB platform and added the FG's front end, cabin and powertrains, they would have had to have designed unique back doors, tailgate, roof, glass and 1/4 panels. But the big cost would have been for engineering, certification and ADR approvals. for a few hungie sales per month = not worth it.

[Brazen]

I think for most larger cars in this country wagons will eventually outsell sedan. Passat, Liberty, Mazda 6 and Mondeo already are mostly wagons, and the Sportwagon is starting to hit over 40% of Commodore sales some months.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by flappist

So what was wrong with the mondeo wagon, it is about the same size internally as a BF Wagon?

No way ! Although, suprisingly, the Modeo is listed as a bit wider than a BF outside (from memory)... the interior space in the cargo area nowhere near as big.
It suffers a similar problem as the Holden S-wagon in that the side panels intrude way too much into the cargo area. They say it can carry the same weight as the Falcon... but it can't tow as much... and FWD is not as good when you're fully loaded with a good trailer load on the hitch as well. As an alternative to the S-Wagon (exclusing V8 & SS versions of course), for the people they are pitched at?? Probably ok though ?? (although... it hasn't been that well received :( ) Though... if the Mondeo keep growing at the same rate, with each "all new" model.... it could one day be as big as a "current" Falcon !??

My understanding is that Wagon boot capacities are measured as though you had filled the cargo area with water, up to the underside of the window line. This can give quite a false impression, when comparing Wagon for Wagon. Especially when you compare the roofline of Wagons like the Holden Sportswagon to a Falcon's.

Inerestingly, the Terry's body structure is about 150mm taller than the Falcon Wagon's (from floor to roof, excluding ground clearace)... yet inside, it's cargo floor to ceiling height is only about 50mm taller. (no doubt due to it's under floor storage thingamys and/or 3rd row seat) And its' tailgate opening is not all that different in dimension to Falcon's either. Take away the LWB and extra rear overhang... and the reason the Terry's boot is not as "useful" as a Wagon starts to become more evident.

Don't get me wrong... I think the Terry is a great vehicle !! It's something the team at Ford Oz can be really proud of !! I just don't think it should have been pitched as an alternative to the Falcon Wagon. I think, in the main, they are different vehicles for different markets.

[arronm]

Yep I agree with the load space. With my drivers seat in about the mid range, comfortable for me, the load length in our EF is 2200mm and the VE 2050. VE still good enough for a set of 6 foot steps or a single bed or wardrobe etc. With the seat up VE 1100mm and EF 1300mm. The advantage of the VE is the small area required to open the tailgate , haven't measured it but its a big difference especially in a garage. The design was purposely done like that, but sacrifices space.

The leaf springs may be good for load carrying but the ride control and and feel is chalk and cheese compared to the IRS. And I have driven plenty of BA and BF wagons at work.

[arronm]

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

No way ! Although, suprisingly, the Modeo is listed as a bit wider than a BF outside (from memory)... the interior space in the cargo area nowhere near as big.
It suffers a similar problem as the Holden S-wagon in that the side panels intrude way too much into the cargo area. They say it can carry the same weight as the Falcon... but it can't tow as much... and FWD is not as good when you're fully loaded with a good trailer load on the hitch as well. As an alternative to the S-Wagon (exclusing V8 & SS versions of course), for the people they are pitched at?? Probably ok though ?? (although... it hasn't been that well received :( ) Though... if the Mondeo keep growing at the same rate, with each "all new" model.... it could one day be as big as a "current" Falcon !??

My understanding is that Wagon boot capacities are measured as though you had filled the cargo area with water, up to the underside of the window line. This can give quite a false impression, when comparing Wagon for Wagon. Especially when you compare the roofline of Wagons like the Holden Sportswagon to a Falcon's.

Inerestingly, the Terry's body structure is about 150mm taller than the Falcon Wagon's (from floor to roof, excluding ground clearace)... yet inside, it's cargo floor to ceiling height is only about 50mm taller. (no doubt due to it's under floor storage thingamys and/or 3rd row seat) And its' tailgate opening is not all that different in dimension to Falcon's either. Take away the LWB and extra rear overhang... and the reason the Terry's boot is not as "useful" as a Wagon starts to become more evident.

Don't get me wrong... I think the Terry is a great vehicle !! It's something the team at Ford Oz can be really proud of !! I just don't think it should have been pitched as an alternative to the Falcon Wagon. I think, in the main, they are different vehicles for different markets.

Side panels in the cabin, I think you will be surprised. Just measured the EF 1140mm. Measure your BF and post it up.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

If they wanted to really do it and do it on a budget, they could have carried over the EA169 LWB platform and added the FG's front end, cabin and powertrains, they would have had to have designed unique back doors, tailgate, roof, glass and 1/4 panels. But the big cost would have been for engineering, certification and ADR approvals. for a few hungie sales per month = not worth it.

The way I understand it.... that's basically all an FG Sedan is now... a new 'top hat" on a slightly reworked version of the existing platform (albeit with an all new front steering/supension package)
Think more VG - VJ Valiant, or VL - VN Commydore... than XC - XD Falcon... as the FG grew a bit in width etc... ( I could be wrong... but I'm sure it wasn't a ground up, all new design ??)

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by arronm

Side panels in the cabin, I think you will be surprised. Just measured the EF 1140mm. Measure your BF and post it up.

(Side panels inside the cargo area )

No worries... Just out of interest I have taken a few measurments (in the dark mind you... so they may not be to the exact mm )

Cargo length - seat up
seat back to tailgate (floor level) 1330
seat back to tailgate (top of seat to top of tailgate panel) 1120 (as the seat leans back, as it gets higher)
seat back to top of tailgate opening 970 (approx - measured parallel to the floor)

Cargo width
between wheel arches 1170
between rear most side panels 1380 (behind the wheel arches - from Drivers side to the base of the fuel filler bump on the passenger side)

Tailgate opening height
760 (nearer the middle)
720 (approx nearer the sides, as it actually curves there it's a bit hard to say where the top stops and the sides start )

Tailgate opening width
1260 (twards the bottom - tail light height)
900 (approx near the very top - again because it curves there)

So, theoretically... the biggest single cube I could fit in the Wagon with the seat up and the tailgate closed is approx 900w x 970d x 720h (but there would be a fair amount of space around that to shove some other stuff !

Or at wheel arch width... the biggest cube would be 1170w x 990d x 550h
How'd I go ??

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

The way I understand it.... that's basically all an FG Sedan is now... a new 'top hat" on a slightly reworked version of the existing platform (albeit with an all new front steering/supension package)
Think more VG - VJ Valiant, or VL - VN Commydore... than XC - XD Falcon... as the FG grew a bit in width etc... ( I could be wrong... but I'm sure it wasn't a ground up, all new design ??)

Its not 100% ground up, as they pinched a few things to make a bigger impact on BA amongst other issues. It was my understanding though that XD did infact share alot with XC under the skin, so maybe that isnt too inappropriate of a comparison.

An earlier point you made though, there is still a SWB and LWB version of VE. They just dont compare to what Ford offer anymore, and therefore the Sportswagon is now built on the SWB Commodore as opposed to the LWB Statesman.

I could imagine a scenario where Ford does give the wagon another look. Given the impending next generation Edge followed by next gen Explorer, theres every chance Ford will see the Territory cannibilised and if Falcon is given the right future, they may target those resources back into Falcon if they feel there will be markets that demand such a model again. I dont think they'd do that though just to go back to the same style wagon they had before.

[jmack]

got another question would ford be in a better position if it hadnt have made such a bad decision in 1982,lost generations!

[arronm]

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

(Side panels inside the cargo area )

No worries... Just out of interest I have taken a few measurments (in the dark mind you... so they may not be to the exact mm )

Cargo length - seat up
seat back to tailgate (floor level) 1330
seat back to tailgate (top of seat to top of tailgate panel) 1120 (as the seat leans back, as it gets higher)
seat back to top of tailgate opening 970 (approx - measured parallel to the floor)

Cargo width
between wheel arches 1170
between rear most side panels 1380 (behind the wheel arches - from Drivers side to the base of the fuel filler bump on the passenger side)

Tailgate opening height
760 (nearer the middle)
720 (approx nearer the sides, as it actually curves there it's a bit hard to say where the top stops and the sides start )

Tailgate opening width
1260 (twards the bottom - tail light height)
900 (approx near the very top - again because it curves there)

So, theoretically... the biggest single cube I could fit in the Wagon with the seat up and the tailgate closed is approx 900w x 970d x 720h (but there would be a fair amount of space around that to shove some other stuff !

How'd I go ??

(Side panels inside the cargo area )



Cargo length - seat up
seat back to tailgate (floor level) 1100mm I allowed for the tailgate section once its closed.

Cargo width
between wheel arches 1220mm, I bet that surprised you. Its that width all the way through


Tailgate opening height
710 (nearer the middle)
700 (approx nearer the sides

Tailgate opening width
1140 (twards the bottom - tail light height)
920 (approx near the very top - again because it curves there)

With my tailgate open it only adds 270mm to the total length of the car. BUT the glass slope limits load height.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by jmack

got another question would ford be in a better position if it hadnt have made such a bad decision in 1982,lost generations!

I don't think so.
Ford sold well without the V8, XF was 6 cylinder only and it comfortably sold well.
I think it was the XR6 from the EB and the XR6 Turbo from BA that brought some much needed credibility back to the Falcon performance.

[arronm]

In the end I just need a vehicle that drives like a CAR, fits a ladder in the back, a few sheets of mdf, a plasma tv, treadmill etc.

If Ford brings out a new wagon I would definitely consider it, but I dont want no povo pack. My VE runs DVD players and brembo brakes.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Its not 100% ground up, as they pinched a few things to make a bigger impact on BA amongst other issues. It was my understanding though that XD did infact share alot with XC under the skin, so maybe that isnt too inappropriate of a comparison.

An earlier point you made though, there is still a SWB and LWB version of VE. They just dont compare to what Ford offer anymore, and therefore the Sportswagon is now built on the SWB Commodore as opposed to the LWB Statesman.

Yeah... I spose more what I was trying to show... was that, as with VG - VJ and VL - VN... the manufacurers basically started with the same base platform and (to describe it very basically) extended out the sills, slipped the platform length... and then built on that to create a "bigger" car (than the last one) rather than them being "All new" models. Of course.. to varying degrees, there were minor & major changes/upgrades/etc throughout these cars during the course of that process.

With XC - XD.... although it was a complete new "top hat" upgrade, the basic platform size didn't change all that much.. other than some overall dimensions due to body styling etc... (just a very basic description... not getting down to the level of types & thicknesses of steel etc.. from one to the other )

Similarly... the FG is a slightly wider bodied car on a "carry over" platform (so to speak... the way I understand it) not an "All new" ground up design.

On the VE wheelbase.... yep... though I was just calling it "LWB" and "extra-LWB" (rather than SWB & LWB) for a more direct comparison with the Falcon & earlier Commydore versions... as (again, very basically) the VE's SWB of 2915mm (VZ SWB 2789mm) is closer in length to the VZ LWB of 2939mm... and the new Statesman/Caprice is now longer than that again at 3009mm (like the P5 & P6 LTD used to be at 3074mm compared to Fairlane/Wagon at 2946mm)

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by arronm

(Side panels inside the cargo area )



Cargo length - seat up
seat back to tailgate (floor level) 1100mm I allowed for the tailgate section once its closed. (me too )
Cargo width
between wheel arches 1220mm, I bet that surprised you. Its that width all the way through


Tailgate opening height
710 (nearer the middle)
700 (approx nearer the sides

Tailgate opening width
1140 (twards the bottom - tail light height)
920 (approx near the very top - again because it curves there)

With my tailgate open it only adds 270mm to the total length of the car. BUT the glass slope limits load height.

It is interesting to compare them Yep, I did realise that the VE was 1220 wide ( I did measure it at work) but as you said, it's like that all the way through... so, the biggest cube aside... the Falcon's overall extra space/less sloping rear "styling" allows a lot more "stuff" to be loaded in, say, behind the cargo barrier. drop the back seat and it grows again.
Whether you need to use all that space or not... is down to personal requirements ?? I know I do, with all my camping gear when I'm off touring OZ for months on end

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

By a long way. When I first bought mine and put it in the garage I was shocked how much shorter it actually was compared to the BA XR8 I traded in on it.

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Do you realise the Territory is actually shorter than a Falcon sedan?

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

It's actually shorter than the Falcon wagon!

Just out of interest... the wheel base & Overall length dimensions of VE Wagon, Falcon Sedan & Wagon and Terry are (as I have found listed)

VE Wagon 2915 & 4896
Terry 2842 & 4856
FG Sedan 2838 & 4955
BF Wagon 2921 & 5066

[onfire]

I think Ford would be in a much better position if they had invested heavily in an Australian developed and built mid-sized sedan, rather than the Mondeo.

[Gobes32]

I own a Falcon wagon and I absolutely love it, also own a Territory and it is also great. What does the Territory have that the wagon doesn't? Soccer mum credibility..........

Towards the end of BF3, it is a well known fact that the wagon was being sold to fleets on a POA basis. Telstra were probably paying mid to high 20's for all their cars. If Ford had a glut of wagons, the sales teams would go out and find buyers. In fact, in the last three years of wagon production, I would be shocked if more than 10% of vehicles went to private buyers. In stark contrast is the Territory which is probably 80% private sales.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

I own a Falcon wagon and I absolutely love it, also own a Territory and it is also great. What does the Territory have that the wagon doesn't? Soccer mum credibility..........

Towards the end of BF3, it is a well known fact that the wagon was being sold to fleets on a POA basis. Telstra were probably paying mid to high 20's for all their cars. If Ford had a glut of wagons, the sales teams would go out and find buyers. In fact, in the last three years of wagon production, I would be shocked if more than 10% of vehicles went to private buyers. In stark contrast is the Territory which is probably 80% private sales.

Well, if they actually made some effort with the B-series wagon and made it less povvo and more appealing, they could have shifted some to private buyers. But they went with the Territory and that is fine. There is no way in hell they would be selling as many wagons as they do Territories. Having come from a Falcon wagon to a Territory just this week I can't say there is anything the wagon could or would have done better, save for *maybe* fitting more stuff in the load space.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Well, if they actually made some effort with the B-series wagon and made it less povvo and more appealing, they could have shifted some to private buyers. But they went with the Territory and that is fine. There is no way in hell they would be selling as many wagons as they do Territories. Having come from a Falcon wagon to a Territory just this week I can't say there is anything the wagon could or would have done better, save for *maybe* fitting more stuff in the load space.

This same comment comes up over and over again.

FORD DID make up market wagons with V8, luxury and sport options and they DID NOT sell more than a handful.

That is they they were discontinued......

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by flappist

This same comment comes up over and over again.

FORD DID make up market wagons with V8, luxury and sport options and they DID NOT sell more than a handful.

That is they they were discontinued......

And I also said they went with the Territory which was an inherently better decision...

[arronm]

Originally Posted by flappist

This same comment comes up over and over again.

FORD DID make up market wagons with V8, luxury and sport options and they DID NOT sell more than a handful.

That is they they were discontinued......

Thats exactly right and if I want an up market wagon and shop "A" doesnt have it I will buy it from shop "B". Then all my servicing and parts money will go to shop "B" and then when I need a new car I may look in shop "B" first and may consider shop "A"

But I am probably the minority.