My massive impact - A real life tale of small car vs large car safety.

[DBourne]

1) Glad to hear you're ok
2) I'm sad that the megane is dead
3) Don't get worked up with some of the replies. You'd be amazed how many scientists we have on here (apparently) who, as soon as you say anything bad about a "big" car, lose their minds

[Polyal]

There are clearly some cars that are built better than others, but whether its a Falcon, Commy or another 5 star car they are all pretty solid these days.

Lucky to get up and walk away. Upside is a new car, what you looking at?

[2011G6E]

We're not casting doubt on the facts of what happened to you. I too would like to see how the old Navara faired in the crash. I'd be suspecting it might look reasonably OK but a little dinged up, but an impact on one corner would probably result in a bent chassis. Seen that before where a fourbie that looks like it just needs panel beating actually gets written off because of that.

And yes, there's no getting away from the fact involving simple physics that if he had been doing 60 to 70kph as well, you wouldn't be writing this.


And yes...what are you planning on getting next? Another Megane?

[03 GHIA]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

Hang on a minute, ol’ mate.

In your own words, the 4WD was hardly moving, therefore the old small car versus large car argument doesn’t apply. Now if the 4WD was coming at you at the same speed and if it hit you on the exact same angle, you wouldn’t be talking about how safe your little car is because you’d be bloody dead, even with 50 airbags and 5 stars.

Not entirely true imo. The Megane weighs about 1,400kg. The Navara about 1,900kg. So there would be an extra ~35% kinetic energy if the Navara was also moving.
Neutons law of equal and opposite forces apply. The Navara is heavier. It will dissipate the weight of the Megane (to where it would be an equal impact to it being stationary), leaving only the difference between the 2 two vehicles of ~500kg.
Given how relatively unscathed Danny was in this situation, there may be more injury but would likely still come out alive, all things equal.

[Polyal]

You can stick any physics laws fellas, they are not perfectly square blocks made out of the same materials etc.

They have crumble zones, different materials, shapes etc etc..its not as clear cut as mass. E = MC^2...we only know one factor, and a basic definition at that.

[MAGPIE]

Too bad about the car, but it did what it was designed to do. Good to see you came through it relatively unscathed.

Shame about all the experts that just can't accept something for what it is, do we really need all this "stating the obvious" crap.

If I've learnt one thing from 18 years of attending and extricating victims of MVA's it is that nothing is a given !

I have seen people die in the most minor looking accidents and others survive the impossible.

[MAD]

Sorry to hear of your accident, and hope you heal up soon with no lingering injuries.

To the 'other' topic running here....
ANCAP star ratings test the car against itself. You can't argue that.
If the 1900kg is 5 star, it can withstand a 1900kg car hitting it.
Therefore if a 1400kg car hit it, in a circumstance as depicted by ANCAP, the 1900kg would not be at it's 'safety limit'.
On the flip side if a 1900kg hit a 1400kg car, the 1400kg car is 500kg over it's safety limit.
It might fare well enough, but it IS beyond it's design and proof tests.

[danzvtil]

Bottom line, here, is buy the safest car in the category you need or can afford, you don't need to try too hard, even a 11790 Alto has 6 airbags. By some peoples logic we should all drive mack trucks in order to survive any crash.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Danny

You wouldnt be insinuating that I am stretching the truth I hope??
Besides, I thought it might be a little bit insensitive to take photos, seeing as how the driver was still strapped into the drivers seat with oxygen mask, neck brace and ecg wires hanging off him while 2 Ambo's worked on him...

I'm not insinuating anything but having seen a number of 4wd's that have fallen over I was curious as to how this one fared.

If it was me I would have waited until the Ambos had done their thing, then taken pics to show how the Meg stood up to the 4wd.

In any crash luck plays a very big part.

Like the two ladies in the Subaru wagon that tried to make a 'U' turn from an on ramp when my Truck was in the way (at 80kmh) they both walked away with only a cursory check from the Ambos.

[|Nate]

I definitely feel safer in newer cars rather than old, also depending on the size. I'd prefer to be in a larger old car rather than a smaller old car.

My partner and I were involved in a crash in Feb 2012, pretty much a similar accident to OP, except we were driving on a country road in Phillip Island.

This Hiace van was waiting to turn right into another road and actually turned when I was around 10-20m away from him.
I was doing roughly 90, jumped on the brakes as fast as I could but still hit him at 50-70 km/h (I think, it happened pretty damn fast.)

Our car.


The Hiace.


My partner broke her hand in 4-5 places and I had pretty minor bruising with very severe soft tissue damage in my top left ribs.

I think it was extremely lucky that I was driving Mum's Barina at the time, whilist my EB Falcon was getting stuff fixed. I think we'd be a lot worse off if it was in the EB.

Now with my BMW 130i, I feel extremely safe.

Discounting the 8 airbags, the cars structural integrity and crumple zones are really fantastic.

[Danny]

GasOlane - Unbeleivable pictures there, bloody miraculous, I would have expected organs and other yummy stuff all over the road looking at the pics you posted there. As for waiting around, it was never gonna happen, once the Ambo's took me inside, they wouldn't let me out again, I was basically told to lie on the stretcher (even though I argued agaist it) and they took me to hospital.

I went and saw the megane at the salvage yard today to pick up my stuff from in the car, it seems that there is oil/diesel sprayed all over the car from the Navara, and there is a MASSIVE oil/diesel patch sprayed all over the intersection. I must have hit hard enough to shatter his oil sump or something.

Someone here said something about a 5 star car at 1400kg hitting anything heavier than it is punching above its weight. My Megane sure was punching above its weight here. its why I even started this thread in the first place.

Nate: 130i is an awesome car mate. one of my favourite hatches. big six, and RWD, win.

[93EB_SXR6]

You might be surprised at what an EB Falcon is capable of protecting you from...

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Danny

Someone here said something about a 5 star car at 1400kg hitting anything heavier than it is punching above its weight. My Megane sure was punching above its weight here. its why I even started this thread in the first place.

The example depends on them travelling at the same speed. If the heavier one is travelling slower than the small one, then the small one may well be within it's design limits.

This is not to take anything away from what the car has done to protect you, but just to highlight how the ANCAP system works, and how it in no way means that a 5 star Barina car will survive a head-on with a 5 star Ranger.

[|Nate]

Originally Posted by Danny

Nate: 130i is an awesome car mate. one of my favourite hatches. big six, and RWD, win.

I absolutely love it! Likewise with your Megane, they're fantastic cars and excellent handlers.

Are you going to replace it with another Megane? Or are you looking for something else now?

[Nikked]

Can't believe the hide of some people, here we have a perfect example of modern small car safety, walking away from a scene we pray never happens to us...


...then you get the odd few who always have to, gor some reason say the "x car woulda, y car coulda, I'd never drive x car" etc.


Dude servearly banged up a small car and had naught a scratch...

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Danny

once the Ambo's took me inside, they wouldn't let me out again, I was basically told to lie on the stretcher (even though I argued agaist it) and they took me to hospital.

Mate you're safer not being in one of those pieces of crap, believe me I used to build the things lol, surprised it didn't catch fire on the way to the hospital

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Can't believe the hide of some people, here we have a perfect example of modern small car safety, walking away from a scene we pray never happens to us...


...then you get the odd few who always have to, gor some reason say the "x car woulda, y car coulda, I'd never drive x car" etc.


Dude servearly banged up a small car and had naught a scratch...

Yes, and some people seem to think 5 star = 5 star, but it doesn't.

Like for like, bigger is always safer.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by MAD

Like for like, bigger is always safer.

So going by your theory every motor vehicle accident that occurs between different sizes of cars (but with equal star ratings) the occupants of the larger car will always come out better off ?

Doesn't work like that in the real world.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

So going by your theory every motor vehicle accident that occurs between different sizes of cars (but with equal star ratings) the occupants of the larger car will always come out better off ?

Doesn't work like that in the real world.

Some people just cannot fathom how it works...

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Some people just cannot fathom how it works...

I know, tell me about it.

[sct911]

middle aged woman not paying attention turned out of a side street , clipped my mates car while he was doing around 70km/h, sent him spinning into a stationary truck. He might not be here today if the impact would have been with the drivers side door.

[BadMax]

Looks like the frog held up quite well, a real testament to real modern day technology. No, not just air bags, but the construction and in particular the materials used to build the car.

In saying that, I would suggest that the impact speed would be 50 maybe 60kph tops. Bullbar's aren't what they were pre SRS, why? Because a bulbar these days needs to act exactly the same us a normal bumper, why? Well if it in any way shape or form reacts differently the SRS systems will not deploy as the OEM manufacturer designed which can result in failures, injury or death.
To the point some insurance companies will not replace non-compliant bullbars in fear of future litigation.

Impacting a wheel is also a soft spot, with suspension or axles deforming or being torn out quite easily.

After 23 years in the panel trade, you get to see and hear a fair bit.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by MAD

Yes, and some people seem to think 5 star = 5 star, but it doesn't.

Like for like, bigger is always safer.

Not if the bigger car is taller and rolls over when its hit...

Remember seeing a VE T-bone a Territory a few years ago and the VE occupants came out much better as the Terry rolled and ended up on its side.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by MAD

Yes, and some people seem to think 5 star = 5 star, but it doesn't.

Like for like, bigger is always safer.

Bigger is ALWAYS safer if the cars hit perfectly head on and every single factor is perfect.
But real world doesn't work that way. Million and 1 factors can affect a crash and cause the people in bigger cars to end up worse off.

Saying that, I do feel pretty safe when driving my Ranger. But I know that I can still get messed up pretty badly by a smaller car or a car with less than 5 star rating.
I don't drive any different because I am in a large car with a 5 star. I drive my missus' 2 star Echo the exact same way. Although I can't wait until she gets a newer, safer car.

Honestly buying a massive car with a 5 star safety rating is not the way to go just to be safe. Just buy the safest cars that suits your needs and budget.
If I was driving an old classic, I would drive like I would if I was on a motorbike. I would be extra cautious because I know in general I would be worse off than a newer car with a higher star rating.

[furiousgibbon]

Originally Posted by MAD

Like for like, bigger is always safer.

This shouldn't really need explaining, although I'd use the word heavier instead of bigger. A bigger car may have a larger crumple zone, but it's the weight that carries the most... weight.

'Like for like' means assuming both cars have similar structural rigidity.

In a crash between two cars of different weight that are structurally as rigid as each other, travelling at the same speed and hitting exactly head on, the heavier car will have an advantage as it will carry more momentum and more energy. Although as some have pointed out, in a car vs car crash there are too many variables to determine the outcome.

By the way Danny, try not to take comments here so personally, it's a discussion forum and there are always going to be differing views on things. No one is calling you a liar. The Megane series has had world class safety for years,. If I recall correctly the Megane was one of the first to get the 5 star rating in the UK. The RS265 still gets me going, and one would be in my garage if it was a little more practical! Sad to see one all pranged up.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by furiousgibbon

This shouldn't really need explaining, although I'd use the word heavier instead of bigger. A bigger car may have a larger crumple zone, but it's the weight that carries the most... weight.

'Like for like' means assuming both cars have similar structural rigidity.

In a crash between two cars of different weight that are structurally as rigid as each other, travelling at the same speed and hitting exactly head on, the heavier car will have an advantage as it will carry more momentum and more energy. Although as some have pointed out, in a car vs car crash there are too many variables to determine the outcome.

By the way Danny, try not to take comments here so personally, it's a discussion forum and there are always going to be differing views on things. No one is calling you a liar. The Megane series has had world class safety for years,. If I recall correctly the Megane was one of the first to get the 5 star rating in the UK. The RS265 still gets me going, and one would be in my garage if it was a little more practical! Sad to see one all pranged up.

So there are people that can use that thing between their ears.


Like for like, was a very simple generalization. It seems perhaps too simple.
"same situation / different car" is what was meant. And yes bigger = heavier as per previous posts on the topic.

Yeah, it has it's 'assumptions', and 'conditions', (so does ANCAP testing) but for the most part it rings true.


It's not to say at all that a heavy 5 star is invincible. A 1980's bronco, or rodeo for that matter, could line up the drivers side of the car at 100km/h and you can be pretty sure it won't end well.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by furiousgibbon

This shouldn't really need explaining, although I'd use the word heavier instead of bigger. A bigger car may have a larger crumple zone, but it's the weight that carries the most... weight.
.

That weight can act to your disadvantage as well, more transfer to the front of that, more force on the occupants...increased stopping distance etc...

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Nikked

That weight can act to your disadvantage as well, more transfer to the front of that, more force on the occupants...increased stopping distance etc...

Weight is not an issue as it was already designed for. (Remember the ANCAP tests are based on self weight)
The time taken to stop from impact is what hurts.

Braking is pre-accident, not what this side topic is about.

[Franco Cozzo]

Here is how much old cars suck in head on crashes:

http://youtu.be/C_r5UJrxcck

[EL2794]

I think it's ironic I've stumbled upon this thread tonight after seeing a D40 Navara with a bullbar and trailer rear end a current shape Nissan Micra this afternoon. Now I'm not SCU so I'm not going to estimate the exact impact speed (as the Navara locked up for a second or two before impact on a 60kph road), driver attention/inattention and so on, but for the BANG and size comparison as mentioned in this thread already, the Micra's rear end held up really well. I like to hope that their injuries were minor at the most. The Micra's driver was able to get out of the car herself.

This was a rear world example (unfortunately) that brings me straight back to hassling my mum about upgrading her car. She's currently driving a '91 model ED Honda Civic sedan, and waiting for retirement and considering her car options (Gulietta, A1, Golf). I worry all the time when she takes her car out (as sometimes she will drive my dads car where possible). It is so low to the ground it's like a go kart, the window sills are so low that a side impact with a Mazda3 will probably come through the window. Just some of the things I'm concerned about. Even when at a T-Junction and another car pulls up next to you, a Corolla is difficult to see past.

To me car safety is not something you can overlook when given the option. It's not always about yourself as you may be a good driver, it's other people on the road that you need to look out for, whether you hear them coming or not.

All the best Danny, and I'm glad you're ok. As mentioned I hope there are no long lasting side effects. Which brings me on to our Road Toll.

Next time you look at the figures for our Road Toll, look below at the amount of Serious Injuries that get racked up each year. These aren't broken legs, or seat belt bruising injuries. They are debilitating injuries that will potentially live with their victim for the rest of their lives, that we don't hear much about because its not another tally on our road toll.

Even not knowing you Danny, I'm glad you're ok, due to the commitment Renault has towards small/car safety.

Cheers