DSC - What does it ACTUALLY do?

[Qwerty321]

Originally Posted by Sprint

Eliminates understeer

I mean laugh all you want but it really does do the job mate. The idea of big heavy FWD sedans, especially when they're putting out decent power, is a horrible idea. Without ESC my Lexus would under steer like crazy in low traction, but with ESC it was greatly reduced. IMO understeer is possibly the worst thing a car could do, cause at least with oversteer you can counter steer and correct, it's quite predictable and you can physically tell when it's about to go and know to ease off. Understeer on the other hand, the only thing you can do is ease off and pray.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by castellan

I know what DSC is for, amateurs ...
...and remember loose dirt roads are different and ABS or DSC are worthless then and only more of a burden then and you have bugger all control over the car then and I will tell you it's dangerous not being in control. I know it for a fact.

Well I'm glad you're happy with your facts

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

The calibration done by Ford Australia with Bosch on the Falcon/Territory DSC systems has included significant amounts of gravel road work and from my experience in the Territory they have done an excellent job and if you care to read some of the motoring reports comparing these systems with others the journo's seem to agree.

You and Sprint seem happy living in the past so who I am to stop you.

Here's hoping your luck holds out.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Well I'm glad you're happy with your facts

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

The calibration done by Ford Australia with Bosch on the Falcon/Territory DSC systems has included significant amounts of gravel road work and from my experience in the Territory they have done an excellent job and if you care to read some of the motoring reports comparing these systems with others the journo's seem to agree.

You and Sprint seem happy living in the past so who I am to stop you.

Here's hoping your luck holds out.

Luck what's luck got to do with it, I just said it's not as good as some think it is.
Journo's are not talking about things from my perspective, they are on about the average driver.
I own a 2015 car with it all you know, not living in the past at all, but I would go back to living in the 1980's in the drop of a hat, when men were men and a woman was a woman in them days before all the new age political correctness trash, oh might keep the VF SS

[Sprint]

I'm just at odds with the Eliminates understeer comment in all due respect, thousands of race car drivers and cars in general suffer from this all the time, this is why race cars struggle for the 50/50 weight, I'm sure if they knew putting DCS in they could take corners at 100 mph, it might even shave 100 kg of the heavy front end boss falcons. I'm not laughing at anyone but its a tall statement, perhaps helps understeer is a better comment.

I may be in the past but I don't want computers driving for me, I'm dead against driverless cars. I work with computers on a engineering level and they sure aren't trouble/error free, ive always been a Indy type guy and not Formula 1. Drivers aids blahh.

[Qwerty321]

Originally Posted by Sprint

I'm just at odds with the Eliminates understeer comment in all due respect, thousands of race car drivers and cars in general suffer from this all the time, this is why race cars struggle for the 50/50 weight, I'm sure if they knew putting DCS in they could take corners at 100 mph, it might even shave 100 kg of the heavy front end boss falcons. I'm not laughing at anyone but its a tall statement, perhaps helps understeer is a better comment.

I may be in the past but I don't want computers driving for me, I'm dead against driverless cars. I work with computers on a engineering level and they sure aren't trouble/error free, ive always been a Indy type guy and not Formula 1. Drivers aids blahh.

Well let me put it to you this way. It eliminates understeer under normal driving conditions. The average driver isn't taking corners at 100mph, they're taking corners at like 40kph, even less under bad conditions. For the non race driver who's just getting places and obeying the road laws (news flash mate, that 95% of drivers!) it effectively emilinates understeer. You can feel the car start to slip but the system brings it back in line, so you just perpetually feel like its about to go and slide but it never actually goes.

Driver aids were never created for race driving or any form of fancy driving. It was designed for mediocre drivers (most people) and drivers who aren't paying much attention and find themselves in a bad situation. It helped me a tonne when I was the former as a learner and an inexperienced young driver and now it'll help us all a tonne when we fall in the latter. DSC is like airbags to me, saying "I don't need DSC I can handle a skid/I'm always paying full attention" is like saying "I don't need airbags, I'll never crash".

EDIT : My Fairlane doesn't have DSC, but my old ES did. I'm not a fanatic saying DSC is a must , cause then I'd be a hypocrit. But I'll be honest, with DSC I was far more lenient with my tires. Im just saying there's never a reason turn down the option of DSC, especially when you can switch it off.

[ratter]

Many of the safety features or driving aids have come from Motorsport

[DRU842]

These developments, as stated help the average driver in the majority of conditions.
The worrying trend is that over reliance on the electronic safeguards versus proper engineering and driver training.

[Gothefalcon]

These modern systems, such as Trac Control & DSC, are designed as Driver Aids... not as driving skill replacements. As mentioned before, if your car has them, they are there to assist the inexperienced/poor driver when they find themselves in various "newbie" trouble... and equally, for the more experienced also, when road, weather or traffic conditions etc. turn bad. Eg: Black ice on the road... Animals (or even people) walk out in front of you... Some idiot badly cuts you off on the freeway at speed or pulls out from a side street across your path without enough time. etc.. etc.. etc..

Whilst it's true... in certain circumstances, these systems can be of a slight hindrance... these circumstances make up a very small percentage in real world driving for the other say, 99.9% of the time.

Falcons & Territories fitted with DSC all have the same basic systems included... EBD, ABS, TCS & DSC. The programs for these are all in the "ABS" computer in the engine bay. (not the BEM or PCM or anywhere else you might have heard).

Generally... these systems can do things you can't... not even the most experienced Driver's amongst us !

EBD (Electronic Brake-force Distribution) can modulate the amount of brake force applied front to rear as the weight balance shifts in the car... and it can do it as many times as 'required" during a braking event. It will only intervene during braking.
ABS (Anti-lock Braking System) can modulate brake pressure to 1 or more individual brakes at any given time during a braking event, to help prevent brake lock up... to ensure the maximum brake pressure is applied to each individual brake, that can be applied, without that brake locking wheel rotation. Again.. as many times as is "required"... and to as many individual brakes that require it. Again... it will only intervene during braking.
TCS (Traction Control System) can assist to prevent 1 or more wheels from spinning at any given moment... it does this by applying 1 or more brakes as "required" at any given time, on the driven wheels. If it is initially struggling to do so... it will also intervene by taking control of the throttle input/engine output, by modulating the torque demand as "required" to achieve it's goal of preventing wheel spin. It will only intervene during acceleration (essentially).
DSC (Dynamic Stability Control) can assist to reduce/correct oversteer & understeer, by braking 1 or more individual brakes as 'required", in an attempt to torque the vehicle back into the correct alignment/balance... for any given situation. It can intervene at any time the vehicle is in motion

The common thing with all these systems is that they can all modulate the brake pressure to individual wheels... as many times a second as the particular computer program (with input from the sensors etc.) deems "required". No Driver can do this... or can react as quickly to changing grip levels, as these systems can.

The more experienced the Driver... the less intervention "required" from the systems will occur (under "normal" driving conditions).

AWD Territories have a two stage shut down of the TCS & DSC systems... where you can disable the TCS basically... to allow the vehicle to "dig" in soft/low grip surfaces, but maintain DSC... or complete shut down of both systems. (EBD & ABS are always on)

Agreed... the systems aren't "perfect" for ALL conditions at ALL times... and each system upgrade brings further improvements etc.. but they are serious advancements in vehicle safety, which generally makes driving safer for ALL of us !
You might be the "Gun Driver who can handle any situation thrown at you in YOUR car"... but you share the roads with others that aren't (unfortunately)... so if these systems make it less likely that Drivers can loose control, and more likely that Drivers can regain control if they do find themselves in trouble... then it's more likely those Drivers can avoid hitting me (& you)... and we are all better off !

Hope this helps the OP and others who didn't quite understand the differences before

D

[kypez]

Originally Posted by castellan

It was a loose dirt marble type of road mate, ABS is hopeless on loose dirt roads as such.

As for the DSC, I wanted the car to turn to be at 90 degrees to the road, as it stops you faster that way, but you do have to go left then right type of trick, so as to control the cars slide.

I take it you don't rally drive.

I take it you haven't rally driven a modern car with DSC/ABS calibrated for gravel. Falcon systems are fantastic on gravel.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by kypez

I take it you haven't rally driven a modern car with DSC/ABS calibrated for gravel. Falcon systems are fantastic on gravel.

My car is a 2015.
Gravel ? they can stop well on a dirt road but when it's a type of loose marbles type ect they don't.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by castellan

It was a loose dirt marble type of road mate, ABS is hopeless on loose dirt roads as such.

As for the DSC, I wanted the car to turn to be at 90 degrees to the road, as it stops you faster that way, but you do have to go left then right type of trick, so as to control the cars slide.

I take it you don't rally drive.

Am I reading this correctly are you saying the car stops better sideways?

The reason Rally drivers do the left-right switch coming into a corner is to line the car up to power out, its got nothing to do with stopping.

So can you explain what how ABS is hopeless on Dirt roads?

[arronm]

Just don't drive on marbles. And if you do go slow.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by castellan

My car is a 2015.
Gravel ? they can stop well on a dirt road but when it's a type of loose marbles type ect they don't.

Gravel -
ˈɡrav(ə)l/
noun
1.
a loose aggregation of small water-worn or pounded stones.

Car works a treat on "loose marbles type".

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Am I reading this correctly are you saying the car stops better sideways?

The reason Rally drivers do the left-right switch coming into a corner is to line the car up to power out, its got nothing to do with stopping.

So can you explain what how ABS is hopeless on Dirt roads?

First off can you really drive or do you race ?
Dirt road is about a lot of types of such.
I have this road called the marble road that the mates and I went out too, it was fantastic to cut loose on, but you have to be a very good driver to have a ball, old mate and his VL Turbo lost it and never went back and does not like me going on about that fantastic road, but his VL was stock setup and would understeer and that something you don't ever want, that's only for hopeless fool drivers.

ABS on such loose stuff does not cut into that stuff so it does not slow you down as fast.

The left right you are on about is not what I am on about at all, you set the car at 90 deg to the road on loose type dirt, this helps bite through the dirt better not to mention the side of a tyre has more width like to do as such (not that a wide tyre front on will be better in stopping you on loose dirt or help with traction powering you off any better mind) but you have to switch left to right in doing so as to be in control the car.

You may come up to a corner and you can use the hand brake to help point the car and some times just change back a gear will do it and then you give the steering wheel a bit of a flick and steer out with the rear wheels as you feed the peddle into it.

ABS is the ducks nuts on wet bitumen roads, no one will beat it at that.
I did a test up to 230KM/H on a crap road raining with big puddles everywhere and just hit the brakes full on, it was just magic with giving total control.

I am not bagging ABS but it's not everything some think it is.
Some may idolise ABS because they do not truly know what they are talking about, because they have never experienced all in all such for themselves.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by arronm

Just don't drive on marbles. And if you do go slow.

You think a Rally driver will slow right down because of it, no he wont he will love it.
I would be like floating like a butterfly and stinging the others like a bee, I am the greatest the world has ever seen, I would be singing, ha ha the others can't keep up to what they can't even see.

[whynot]

Interesting paper from Australasian Road Safety Conference, 1st, 2015, Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia

The impact of airbags, electronic stability control and autonomous emergency braking on Australian light vehicle fatalities: methodology and findings

This paper presents estimates of the current and potential impact of airbags, electronic stability control, and autonomous emergency braking on fatalities in light vehicle crashes. This analysis draws on a number of sources to provide estimates and projections of the proportion of the light vehicle fleet equipped with these technologies. It combines these with estimates of the impact of each technology to provide estimates and projections of the impact on fatalities. It is estimated that frontal airbags have reduced light vehicle fatalities by 13%, side airbags by 4%, and electronic stability control by 6% to 2014. It is also predicted that the impacts of side airbags and electronic stability control will increase significantly as newer vehicles filter through the fleet, and that autonomous emergency braking will begin to lead to significant fatality reductions. Combined, these technologies are predicted to reduce fatalities a further 30% by 2033. This paper draws on the underlying research in BITRE Information Sheet 68 and Report 140 and provides a more in-depth description of the data and research methodology. The paper will be of relevance to those engaged with road safety policy, and to other researchers.

[whynot]

The Effectiveness of Electronic Stability Control (ESC) in Reducing Real Life Crashes and Injuries

Traffic Injury Prevention, Volume 7, Issue 1, 2006

Electronic Stability Control (ESC) was introduced on the mass market in 1998. Since then, several studies showing the positive effects of ESC have been presented.

Objective. In this study, data from crashes occurring in Sweden during 1998 to 2004 were used to evaluate the effectiveness of ESC on real life crashes. The effectiveness was analyzed for different road conditions, and some accident types and injury levels.

Methods. The study used statistical analysis. To control for exposure, induced exposure methods were used, where ESC-sensitive to ESC-insensitive crashes and road conditions were matched in relation to cars equipped with and without ESC. Cars of similar or, in some cases, identical make and model were used to isolate the role of ESC.

Results. The study shows a positive and consistent effect of ESC overall and in circumstances where the road has low friction. The overall effectiveness on all injury crash types, except rear end crashes, was 16.7 ± 9.3%, while for serious and fatal crashes; the effectiveness was 21.6 ± 12.8%. The corresponding estimates for crashes with injured car occupants were 23.0 ± 9.2% and 26.9 ± 13.9%.

For serious and fatal loss-of-control type crashes on wet roads the effectiveness was 56.2 ± 23.5% and for roads covered with ice or snow the effectiveness was 49.2 ± 30.2%. It was estimated that for Sweden, with a total of 500 vehicle related deaths annually, that 80–100 fatalities could be saved annually if all cars had ESC.

Conclusions. ESC was found to reduce crashes with personal injuries, especially serious and fatal injuries. The effectiveness ranged from at least 13% for car occupants in all types of crashes with serious or fatal outcome to a minimum of 35% effectiveness for single/oncoming/overtaking serious and fatal crashes on wet or icy road surface. No difference in deformation pattern was found for cars with or without ESC.

[whynot]

Reduction in Fatal Longitudinal Barrier Crash Rate Due to Electronic Stability Control

Transportation Research Record: Journal of the Transportation Research Board

Abstract

Electronic stability control (ESC) is a vehicle safety system designed to keep vehicles moving in the direction commanded by the driver and thereby prevent loss-of-control crashes. Previous research has shown that ESC has been highly effective at reducing road departures related to loss of control. ESC is mandatory in all U.S. passenger vehicles manufactured from model year 2012 onward; by a 2014 estimate, ESC is in approximately one-third of passenger vehicles on the road. The proliferation of ESC may therefore alter benefit-to-cost ratios for roadside barriers. The objective of this analysis was to determine the effect of ESC on fatal crashes with roadside barriers. This objective was a first step toward determining whether ESC reduced the overall rate of crashes with roadside barriers and whether ESC had any effect on impact conditions or injury outcomes in barrier crashes. For cars, ESC reduced the odds of fatal crashes with roadside barriers by about 50% and reduced the odds of fatal rollovers that occurred in association with roadside barriers by about 45%. For light trucks and vans, ESC reduced barrier fatality odds by about 40% and barrier-associated rollover fatality odds by about 55%. By 2028, when an estimated 75% of passenger vehicles will have electronic stability control, ESC will have the potential to prevent about 410 out of an estimated 1,180 possible barrier-related fatalities per year. In the long term, once installed in every U.S. passenger vehicle, ESC could prevent about 550 of those same 1,180 possible barrier-related fatalities each year.

[FPV+fteT3]

All the above is good reading or you could drive a car with a properly engineered chassis, matched suspension, and quality brakes and achieve the same result but… no its cheaper to build a compromised chassis that you can fit multiple bodies on, cheap suspension with just adequate brakes and rely on electronics to do what engineering could have done if the money was spent on building the car right in the first place.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

All the above is good reading or you could drive a car with a properly engineered chassis, matched suspension, and quality brakes and achieve the same result but… no its cheaper to build a compromised chassis that you can fit multiple bodies on, cheap suspension with just adequate brakes and rely on electronics to do what engineering could have done if the money was spent on building the car right in the first place.

I am not sure if your argument stacks up. It was the premium manufacturers like Mercedes-Benz and BMW that were the first to make available ABS, ESC, etc. It is hard to argue that these manufacturers do not delivery premium suspension, tyres, and brakes.

When I did the advanced driver training a few years ago, the instructors made a point of showing each student a braking run with and without ABS. The instructors could stop the car in a shorter distance without ABS than relying on ABS, and one of the challenges of the day was for each student to master the same skill. However, the instructors also made it very clear the importance of ABS and ESC as a backup safety device in case we became overwhelmed by the situation.

The electronics are definitely getting better at assisting driver control in marginal situations. And I suspect that it will not be long before the electronics can do a better job than a driver.

A final comment, I would not have a clue as to the correct technique to safely start a manual cranked engine. And to be frank, I do not care for this skill (and I suspect that most forum participants would feel the same way). One of the prime reasons for introducing “self-starters” was consumer safety. If ABS/ESC are that “bad”, why not strip out of the car other safety devices like seat belts, disk brakes, vacuum assist brakes, window demisters, self-starters, indicators, stop lights, etc.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by whynot

.When I did the advanced driver training a few years ago, the instructors made a point of showing each student a braking run with and without ABS. The instructors could stop the car in a shorter distance without ABS than relying on ABS,

How many years ago? The systems make generational leaps every couple of years. The leap from FG MK1 to FG MK2 was massive alone.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by castellan

First off can you really drive or do you race ?
Dirt road is about a lot of types of such.
I have this road called the marble road that the mates and I went out too, it was fantastic to cut loose on, but you have to be a very good driver to have a ball, old mate and his VL Turbo lost it and never went back and does not like me going on about that fantastic road, but his VL was stock setup and would understeer and that something you don't ever want, that's only for hopeless fool drivers.

ABS on such loose stuff does not cut into that stuff so it does not slow you down as fast.

The left right you are on about is not what I am on about at all, you set the car at 90 deg to the road on loose type dirt, this helps bite through the dirt better not to mention the side of a tyre has more width like to do as such (not that a wide tyre front on will be better in stopping you on loose dirt or help with traction powering you off any better mind) but you have to switch left to right in doing so as to be in control the car.

You may come up to a corner and you can use the hand brake to help point the car and some times just change back a gear will do it and then you give the steering wheel a bit of a flick and steer out with the rear wheels as you feed the peddle into it.

ABS is the ducks nuts on wet bitumen roads, no one will beat it at that.
I did a test up to 230KM/H on a crap road raining with big puddles everywhere and just hit the brakes full on, it was just magic with giving total control.

I am not bagging ABS but it's not everything some think it is.
Some may idolise ABS because they do not truly know what they are talking about, because they have never experienced all in all such for themselves.

Ok so what you are doing is deliberately sliding, because you have a theory that it will dig in, and more so if going sideways...
of course safety aids like ABS will stop you being able to do this. hence your dislike of it.

And the reason for that, despite what you may think is sliding sideways is not the best way to stop.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Ok so what you are doing is deliberately sliding, because you have a theory that it will dig in, and more so if going sideways...
of course safety aids like ABS will stop you being able to do this. hence your dislike of it.

And the reason for that, despite what you may think is sliding sideways is not the best way to stop.

It's not a theory it's fact, in the correct circumstance mind.

I love ABS but I would have a switch to turn it off if need be, just for my self to feel comfortable at times, because it scares the hell out of you when you have bugger all braking power and bugger all control because of it.

I could still toss it into a 90 deg slide just the same with ABS but you can't do that all the time as the road has to be straight ect.

Have a test and sit on 160KM/H on a real loose stone road and I bet you a old drum brake EH Holden could stop better than a ABS car.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by whynot

Reduction in Fatal Longitudinal Barrier Crash Rate Due to Electronic Stability Control

Transportation Research Record: Journal of the Transportation Research Board

Abstract

Electronic stability control (ESC) is a vehicle safety system designed to keep vehicles moving in the direction commanded by the driver and thereby prevent loss-of-control crashes. Previous research has shown that ESC has been highly effective at reducing road departures related to loss of control. ESC is mandatory in all U.S. passenger vehicles manufactured from model year 2012 onward; by a 2014 estimate, ESC is in approximately one-third of passenger vehicles on the road. The proliferation of ESC may therefore alter benefit-to-cost ratios for roadside barriers. The objective of this analysis was to determine the effect of ESC on fatal crashes with roadside barriers. This objective was a first step toward determining whether ESC reduced the overall rate of crashes with roadside barriers and whether ESC had any effect on impact conditions or injury outcomes in barrier crashes. For cars, ESC reduced the odds of fatal crashes with roadside barriers by about 50% and reduced the odds of fatal rollovers that occurred in association with roadside barriers by about 45%. For light trucks and vans, ESC reduced barrier fatality odds by about 40% and barrier-associated rollover fatality odds by about 55%. By 2028, when an estimated 75% of passenger vehicles will have electronic stability control, ESC will have the potential to prevent about 410 out of an estimated 1,180 possible barrier-related fatalities per year. In the long term, once installed in every U.S. passenger vehicle, ESC could prevent about 550 of those same 1,180 possible barrier-related fatalities each year.

All good, but my new 2015 car could do with much better shocks that's for sure to make me feel much safer, if I jump on the brakes real hard the car will bottom out in the front and the rear bottoms out up in the full travel of the shock, that's 3rd rate in safety in my books and I can't find a decent shock for the car they just only sell rubbish for it.

[castellan]

Hey has anyone drove along and hit the brakes deal hard and seen the passengers fold over with there head down near there knees ? what happens then if you hit something real hard ?
Seat belts are near worthless then are they ?
How about a harness ?

[whynot]

Originally Posted by mcnews

How many years ago? The systems make generational leaps every couple of years. The leap from FG MK1 to FG MK2 was massive alone.

I wrote up my experiences here

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11207751

Article dates from Feb 2008. It describes in detail my experiences with ABS and ESC (DSC) on the skidpad.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by castellan

All good, but my new 2015 car could do with much better shocks that's for sure to make me feel much safer, .

Could you please clarify what make/model we are discussing here?

[whynot]

Originally Posted by castellan

It's not a theory it's fact, in the correct circumstance mind.

Have a test and sit on 160KM/H on a real loose stone road and I bet you a old drum brake EH Holden could stop better than a ABS car.

Still not sure what make/model vehicle we are discussing here. Ever since ABS came out in Australia, ALL Australian manufacturers (Ford, GMH, Mitsubishi) have "deep pulse" settings on their ABS. The deep pulse deliberately allows the pad to grab and lock the rotor, thereby allowing the tyre to bite through the gravel on dirt roads to the soil underneath. This overcomes the issue of ABS on loose stones. A read through old Wheels magazines should find an article or three were this setting in the Australian ABS is discussed at length.

"Marble-gravel" is not a geological feature restricted to just Australia. Most overseas countries have it as well.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by mcnews

How many years ago? The systems make generational leaps every couple of years. The leap from FG MK1 to FG MK2 was massive alone.

Sabine Scmidt took the brand new Audi R8 to Laguna Seca in the new top gear (which is crap by the way). Anyway she was 7 seconds a lap faster with the driver aids disabled.

[Danny]

FFS... They're not designed to make you go faster!!!

They're designed to be a safety net in times of emergency. The foolish notion that Sabine can pilot an Audi R8 faster around a track without ESC would be liitle consolation to someone who may have had a loved one who died swerving for a kid in a non esc equipped car..... How bloody ridiculous.