Mondeo 2011 Turbo Diesel lack of power - Page 3

JustBill · 23-08-2024, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

The chain coloured links can be a bit of a distraction, the main requirements are - as you say - for the belt timing points to be lined up and crank bolt “FT” with thread locker, and the chain sprockets to be synchronised. If they’re out of sync now it’s probably due to the interference event which broke the rockers.

On the cam driven by the timing belt, I’m fairly sure both the belt pulley and chain sprocket are positively keyed; they cannot rotate.

The FAI brand rockers used to be a good aftermarket part for these situations, it may be they’re either much dearer or unavailable now.

Note on the crank bolt. Its torque is given in Nm only, which suggests to me the “always fit a new bolt” rule is driven by thread lock paste or granules pre-coated onto the bolt. If it were a TTY bolt it would have a preload torque plus degrees cited.

Breaking bolts or damaging threads on removal is usually the result of people not having the patience to walk the thread in and out, loosening it progressively.

Gotcha

Re Cam bolt, i've been watching Allan Howatt videos a lot. He reuses the cam bolt.

This is where i am at now.
-Flywheel locked in position.
-8 New rockers placed
-the area cleaned from rocker metal fragments.

Next Stage
-Fit the 2 cams with chain in correct position as per the diagram in my previous post (mark on intake cam pointing 12 oclock - mark on exhaust cam pointing 11 oclock)
-Place the cam belt sprocket in correct position making sure the hole in the sprocket lines up with hole on the engine.
-Place the timing belt and tensioner back on.
-Then remove the pins and by hand spin the crank 2 rotations and check if both flywheel and cam pully both line up again and able to pin them again.
All this before putting the rocker cover on making sure the marks on the cam sprockets also still line up at 12 oclock and 11 oclock. At the same time making sure nothing is hitting the rockers or valves while spinning. Any resistance or knocking sound while hand spinning would be a warning sign i don't have things right.

Make or break time..... Literally

Citroënbender · 23-08-2024, 11:37 AM

I’m relieved it’s coming together. Be sure to hit that torque - with thread locker - before your test turnings-over.

We did some bolts yesterday on a truck head that were 59Nm plus 90° plus 180°. It’s disconcerting to both consider how far you’re twisting it and how tight it’s getting - but evidently parts are designed to take the stresses. You should “overpull” slightly on the 60° as the bolt will naturally spring back.

Citroënbender · 23-08-2024, 12:12 PM

Also, are you sure the rockers which didn’t break, aren’t fractured? It’d be disappointing to find out later.

JustBill · 23-08-2024, 02:30 PM

No thats it. I quit. 4 weeks of killing my self pulling things apart and lots of money spent, i quit.

I put it all together, try spinning it 2 revolutions but turns only 1/4 and locks up. The cam spins independantly as many times you like, so does the crank. but put them on the belt 1/4 turn. These have been up there with the worst period of my life.

Thank you citroenbender and the rest of you for giving me your precious time.
i can never repay yous for what youre worth.

**aussiblue** · 23-08-2024, 04:34 PM

Sounds like you have the timing wrong and a piston is hitting a valve or two. Did you rotate the engine at all when when the belt and or chain was off? Have you check the piston position at number 1 cylinder at TDC?

What city and state are you in? Somebody on the forum more knowledgeable may be prepared to visit and have a look over the engine for you.

goz007 · 23-08-2024, 04:47 PM

I'm thinking 1 of 3 things, either u have a bent valve,but after breaking 8 rockers I'm doubting that's the issue.(Do the valves all look to be moving when u are turning the cams & when u come to the back of the cam lobes do u have correct clearance s for each valve-tight valve lash is very bad as it will make the valve hang, better off lose than tight) 2/ possible that there is a machining difference from old rockers to new & valve lash is to tight making a valve hang & catch a piston....I'm also doubting this 3/ the timing is still out....& This is what I'm putting my money on, I believe that u have pinned the flywheel on No4 tdc & cams are@ No1 tdc.....keep going u are soooo close & we are all happy to help u get there.

**aussiblue** · 23-08-2024, 05:07 PM

Another of the many possibilities perhaps: broken or incorrectly adjusted timing chain tensioner preventing the chain freely turning? Like the one here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jLzRoDQdyo&t=186s

**aussiblue** · 23-08-2024, 05:44 PM

If you have not already done so, it would be worth downloading the factory workshop manual PDF from https://easymanuals.co.uk/ (best) or even one of the ebay resellers (e.g https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/30563927....c100667.m2042) There is a lot of useful info in the that will help you diagnose your issue and check everything is correctly (re) installed.

JustBill · 23-08-2024, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiblue

Sounds like you have the timing wrong and a piston is hitting a valve or two. Did you rotate the engine at all when when the belt and or chain was off? Have you check the piston position at number 1 cylinder at TDC?

What city and state are you in? Somebody on the forum more knowledgeable may be prepared to visit and have a look over the engine for you.

Hi aussiblue im in Melbourne Victoria. Wallan to be exact.

I would have rotated the engine once or twice with the belt off, but always went back to locking the flywheel and pinning the cam cog to its timing position.

I have a thought (but none of my thoughts have worked out) but my thought is going back to one of my posts where i said when undoing the crank bolt on one particular occasion (can't remember why) the flywheel was locked and i used the extension bar with a 1 meter steel pipe for e extra extension and leverage..... The bolt together with the crank cog spun anti clockwise but the pin in the flywheel was still intact. I'm stating to wonder now is the opposite end of the crank bolted onto the flywheel and that back end is now out of position to the flywheel, meaning that hole in the flywheel is no longer the timing position 1 cylinder not in TDC. Or is the crank and flywheel one piece and not possible to spin independently.

**aussiblue** · 23-08-2024, 05:53 PM

Quote:

I would have rotated the engine once or twice with the belt off, but always went back to locking the flywheel and pinning the cam cog to its timing position.

Never a good idea; it might then be 180 degrees out as I think they pass those timing marks twice on an engine revolution and only one is right.

What scan tool are you using? In any event, it might be better to use the windows version Forscan on a laptop https://forscan.org/download.html and one of the two recommended dongles per that link https://www.obdlink.com/products/obd...x/?ref=forscan or https://www.amazon.com/dp/B094Z7PBLS

Note that I am definitely not a Mondeo expert and have actually never owned or worked extensively on one or on this engine so I am just speaking from my general, though perhaps reasonably extensive, mechanical experience albeit mostly with Falcons and Valiants and the like. Another disclaimer; at 71 I am also starting to forget things and are now more prone to making mistakes when relying on my memory.

**aussiblue** · 23-08-2024, 06:17 PM

Also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBs1FLVyxdk after the 21 minute mark; the cog can spin on the camshaft. Bur not being at TDC with the marks aligned suggest the 180 degrees out is the more likely scenario.

goz007 · 23-08-2024, 06:46 PM

It's strange, I've just spent some time looking through the engine manual here(not sure if it's the complete manual) but a few things I noticed is that the crankshaft gear & cam gear both seem to have keyways & there's no call for feeler gauges or valve clearances, so I really feel now that engine timing is still incorrect....so time to release the cams, repin the crank & have anthor go to rest the cams, but I'm also concerned now as the H.P pump is also timed to the back of the cam to tdc1...I'm going to look into the manuals Blue has mentioned & see what I can find, I also have a mate who works@Ford & I'll go & pester him next week & see if I can look@his manual's. But other than that I to don't have a lot of knowledge of this engine.

JustBill · 23-08-2024, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goz007

It's strange, I've just spent some time looking through the engine manual here(not sure if it's the complete manual) but a few things I noticed is that the crankshaft gear & cam gear both seem to have keyways & there's no call for feeler gauges or valve clearances, so I really feel now that engine timing is still incorrect....so time to release the cams, repin the crank & have anthor go to rest the cams, but I'm also concerned now as the H.P pump is also timed to the back of the cam to tdc1...I'm going to look into the manuals Blue has mentioned & see what I can find, I also have a mate who works@Ford & I'll go & pester him next week & see if I can look@his manual's. But other than that I to don't have a lot of knowledge of this engine.

You really going to do all that for me? reading the manual and going to pester your friend? wow mate you give me hope that society isn't in that much trouble as i first thought. There are still good people in this world. Because of this undeserved favor you are giving me i can't just sit back and give up now, i must press on.

I have released the cams, repined the crank & flywheel just today. But ill have another go to rest the cam.

JustBill · 23-08-2024, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiblue

Never a good idea; it might then be 180 degrees out as I think they pass those timing marks twice on an engine revolution and only one is right.

What scan tool are you using? In any event, it might be better to use the windows version Forscan on a laptop https://forscan.org/download.html and one of the two recommended dongles per that link https://www.obdlink.com/products/obd...x/?ref=forscan or https://www.amazon.com/dp/B094Z7PBLS

Note that I am definitely not a Mondeo expert and have actually never owned or worked extensively on one or on this engine so I am just speaking from my general, though perhaps reasonably extensive, mechanical experience albeit mostly with Falcons and Valiants and the like. Another disclaimer; at 71 I am also starting to forget things and are now more prone to making mistakes when relying on my memory.

I think you are doing great Aussie, i'm 55 and you are much brighter and more alert than me.

goz007 · 23-08-2024, 07:16 PM

Just watched the utube that blue linked & appears there's no keyways......

**aussiblue** · 23-08-2024, 07:34 PM

I also wonder if the share this issue from the PSA derived engine: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dyccm9kM0JA

JustBill · 23-08-2024, 07:56 PM

Here is a video i did which i think was before smashing the rockers. My intention for recording it was to show Allan.

I followed Allans instructions on changing the timing belt (The second youtube video link from 2minute mark onwards).

notice near the end how i had to turn the cam pully anti clockwise to line up the holes. Why anti clockwise? because just like now, it wouldnt spin clockwise just locked up. And that was without the belt attached. Now it spins clockwise without the belt but won't spin more than 1/4 with the belt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ2KrPmTRZk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWkT...dD6A74IVh2RzKf

**aussiblue** · 23-08-2024, 08:17 PM

Also see https://www.talkford.com/threads/for...m-help.388487/ did you have it locked on both the front and rear holes and are you sure they were the correct holes and number 1 piston was at or close to TDC?

JustBill · 23-08-2024, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiblue

Also see https://www.talkford.com/threads/for...m-help.388487/ did you have it locked on both the front and rear holes and are you sure they were the correct holes and number 1 piston was at or close to TDC?

"Flywheel on auto is solid and the hole is drilled in the plate so this can be used to lock the crank, but there are two important things to consider:
1. Pin can easily slot into one of holes for the torque converter bolts misaligning the crank
2. Pin will be difficult to install into the locking hole due to very tight tolerances and rust".

Possibly this is where i'm going wrong. Pin is slotting into one of the holes for the torque converter bolts and i'm mistakenly thinking its in the proper hole in the plate.

**aussiblue** · 24-08-2024, 02:09 PM

Maybe it would be worth investing the $30 in one of these kits so you also have the plate to check the camshafts positions https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/14502289...Bk9SR860paKwZA

JustBill · 25-08-2024, 12:12 PM

New issue now. I pulled the timing belt off and reset everything knowing now for certain i have the crank and cams lined up to perfection. But boy did the crank bolt give me trouble coming out I used a rattle gun to remove it all the way till the end. It wasn/t stiff just at the initial break but all the way till it came out. It was that hard that the socket attached to the rattle gun become so hot it singed my finger tips when grabbing the socket. I am astonished the bolt didn't snap. Reason i believe it was so hard was due to the JB weld perma lock i applied on the entire bolt.

Now for this new issue, i can't get the crank bolt going back in. It starts off going in 4 twists by hand but then tightens up where i need the rattle gun or spanner. When applying the rattle gun, i get a couple of more minor spins then thats it and the bolt goes half way in and doesnt budge any further where the socket gets really hot. I am going to get a new bolt, but looking the the old bolt with one eye (as i am bling with the other) i can't see any damage such as threading. i'm guessing the female thread (in the crank) could be clogged with this excess amount of JB weld perma lock. But then again, you would think during the unscrewing of the bolt the JB weld in the thread in the crank would have rubbed out somewhat.

This is my plan, Find a tap and screw it in the crank thread back and forth causing to clean the thread and repairing it incase there is a cross thread somewhere in the shaft. All i need to know is how do i find what size tap i need and is it a special thread.

I now know i have the timing fixed. How do i know? well the devil has just said "Yes you fixed the timing..... but let me see you get out of this problem"

Franco Cozzo · 25-08-2024, 12:30 PM

The bolt hasn't stretched by any chance? Especially if its been hit with an impact gun on the way in and out a couple times now.

They snapped it in the crank on my Focus, and then had to have a thread specialist come in extract it and retap the crank, was the same deal it tightened up on the way out, but unfortunately in their case it snapped

There's a timing belt change tool kit for these engines:

https://www.endeavourtools.com.au/ET1686-psa-timing-kit

Also, there's a few other people who have had the same problem:

https://frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v...ic.php?t=66064

Bit late on this video but it shows how to lock the cam and crank in position with the timing kit:

I'd be inclined to get a new bolt from Ford spare parts, that way you know its the right one

In that thread they reckon its M14 x 1.5 which could be a fine(?) thread,

Maybe worth getting a kit of thread gauges to confirm:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/135067072219

Be inclined to get ones made out of steel, but something along those lines.

Or just buy a new one from Ford.

You could even take the bolt to an industrial hardware place, usually there's some old bloke who has been working there for 30 years who knows everything about bolts that when he retires because everything is in his head no one knows shit from clay anymore

**aussiblue** · 25-08-2024, 02:32 PM

Are you aware of this forum resource https://fordforums.com.au/vbportal/v...articleid=1882 and especially https://fordforums.com.au/wsmpub/mc/303-01J.html ? It will also refer you to https://fordforums.com.au/wsmpub/mc/303-01J.html which warns against using power tools/ rattle guns on the crankshaft the bolt. The generally are secured with a lots of very strong thread locking compound that make them difficult to remove. Alan Howat recommends applying hear to the head of the bolt with a heat gun to soften the thread locking compound before trying to remove the bolt (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gThEBrwkw&t=713s) . If you have an old belt this technique may also work https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-MTR_...?feature=share or even https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JNt4H...?feature=share and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udwbtwub8XQ

Quote:

The bolt hasn't stretched by any chance? Especially if its been hit with an impact gun on the way in and out a couple times now.

Always a risk.

**aussiblue** · 25-08-2024, 03:05 PM

As I have mentioned on this forum a few times (e.g. https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11463160) my go to tool for undoing them is a power/impact bar like this https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/26249211...Bk9SR6b92P6wZA. But I would still apply some heat first.

There some other Mondeo related crnak bolt stuff on that https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11463160 thread too.

Citroënbender · 25-08-2024, 09:12 PM

Definitely not a place to use a regular thread cutting tap. The clearance grades of threads such as this in the crank, are not matched to common taps and the result does not guarantee design-correct response to tightening procedures.

The simplest tool is an old bolt that’s had its locking paste removed with paint stripper and no more than two helical slits cut along its entire thread length with a grinder and cutoff disc. A light/quick buff with wire wheel in the unscrewing direction across the cuts, will sufficiently deburr.

goz007 · 26-08-2024, 12:05 AM

Yeah that's the best thread cleaner/reclaimer + cheapest u can make....can't say I've ever tried 2 helical cuts, but I've often done it with 3 straight ones, I imagine doing the helical cuts a little difficult....any trix with doing that Citreon?

Citroënbender · 26-08-2024, 04:41 AM

No, I just freehand them. Sit the bolt on the vice with jaws open a few mm just to make a “cradle” so you can carefully twist it as you cut. Mostly we don’t keep improvised tools like this so the work is a bit rough.

JustBill · 26-08-2024, 04:37 PM

Engine has had it. Got the timing 100%

But after rotating the crank, crank wheel spins to easy without any noticeable resistance/compression at 90 degree intervals.

i gave it one last crack. That's it.

Blind in one eye, recently lost hearing in one ear after nearly losing my 2 year old grandson. Just call me lucky........ not. But at least i don't have to waist anymore weeks now with this car and instead spend precious time with the grandson. And i'll repay that money to my son, he'll understand.

Thanks again to you all your your guidance. We gave it a good crack. Expensive crack but hindsight is always 20/20

**aussiblue** · 26-08-2024, 06:23 PM

Check it not leaking at the intake manifold or at the injectors or at the turbo. If they leak it can not create compression as it escapes through the leak point. Or worse case a badly cracked head or block. Also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feOpfrKeU5w for example. Also see CB's post on the first page of this thread. Also see https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php...f-help.441554/ Unless the valve train has been damaged or the head or block cracked it doesn't sound like it has done enough kms to be worn to the point of having no compression on all cylinders.

Franco Cozzo · 27-08-2024, 06:12 AM

Mine copped an absolute rogering, it was heavily modified, put down the drag strip 6x and survived me flogging the *** out of it for every one of its 230,000km I had it for, as well as pulling overloaded 6x4 trailers on the regular - it's still limping along to this day coming up close to 260,000km with it's current custodian but it's tired, was used to pull a 1.7 tonne excavator on its machinery trailer recently

I'd be inclined to keep at it, they're not overly fragile mechanically, except for retarded French electronics and some silly design choices.

Aussiblue is onto something, mine had leaky injector seals a few times, it's a copper washer, and I'm pretty sure the intake manifold on mine was leaking as well.