BF XR8 price puts it out of market

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

IMO the VT to VZ facelifts are clearly more noticeable than the BA to BF. I seriously wouldnt be able to pick the difference between a BA and BF.

But if you were to consider EL to BF which covers the same timespan VT to VZ would you still be prepared to say the Holden had made the more noticeable evolution?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SSBUB

I dont need to do research, it was a general question..most of my ford research is here because i drive a holden....and i wont ask you again because i know your answer but i will put it to others:

for arguments sake, what would you prefer, a MANUAL (read it again 4vman, a MANUAL) xr8 vs a MANUAL ssz

Forgetting new boxes, auto or not, its just a general question that if you were faced with this choice, would an SSZ be more appealing to the Ford Bretheran if the box's were the same? Just a general question,, putting a twist on the original post is all.

:hihi: Why argue using hypotheticals or selectively dismiss part of the range or options for comparrison?
So what you're saying is for the purposes of trying to make a stronger case for the SSZ you're selectively limiting peoples choice to manual only because the SSZ auto cant compete with the XR8 auto?
Its a bit like saying "would the SSZ be a more appealing car to the XR8 if the SSZ was a better optioned car" ......

[SunDrifter]

Meh, let SSBUB compare manuals to manuals, id still go for the XR8, because as stated above, i'm sure i could pay the same price for the same optioned XR8, which IMO is also technically far superior.

[Bucknaked]

Just wait for run out models and marathon sales. Prices always come down.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by JC-XRWgn

Holden will hold the price (or heavily discount - employee discount) their product as they are in trouble all through the market. They are getting rid of 8000 employees, where Ford are probably putting on additional employees to cope with demand.

You sure it's 8000?? I thought it was only 1600.

Anyway, Like alot of people have said, the SSZ is an older model and I'll bet the new VE will be on par with the BF on price.

The VZ's front has been fixed but the back end still looks ugly IMO. I know I would gladly pay the extra money to have the 6-speed auto if it's an option. When you buy a car an extra $1600 dosn't mean s#it. If your griping over that amount of money dont buy a V8.

[SSBUB]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

:hihi: Why argue using hypotheticals or selectively dismiss part of the range or options for comparrison?
So what you're saying is for the purposes of trying to make a stronger case for the SSZ you're selectively limiting peoples choice to manual only because the SSZ auto cant compete with the XR8 auto?
Its a bit like saying "would the SSZ be a more appealing car to the XR8 if the SSZ was a better optioned car" ......

Its a hypothetical yes, but not to make a stronger case fo the SSZ, to make things more even on this forum itself, how since most go on about how good the tranny is in the falcon, i was interested to see if the opinions were still the same if the new auto wasnt an option.
In other words, if the hype about the BF transmission was dismissed as a factor, would you still prefer the xr8 and on what basis.....for eg, Sundrifter said its technically far superior, but i would like to know, tranny aside, what makes it so? Not flaming or anything, im just seeking opinions as my familiarity with the BF, tranny and 'big brakes' aside (did the xr8 even get the brake package?), i dont know a lot about.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SSBUB

Its a hypothetical yes, but not to make a stronger case fo the SSZ, to make things more even on this forum itself, how since most go on about how good the tranny is in the falcon, i was interested to see if the opinions were still the same if the new auto wasnt an option.
In other words, if the hype about the BF transmission was dismissed as a factor, would you still prefer the xr8 and on what basis.....for eg, Sundrifter said its technically far superior, but i would like to know, tranny aside, what makes it so? Not flaming or anything, im just seeking opinions as my familiarity with the BF, tranny and 'big brakes' aside (did the xr8 even get the brake package?), i dont know a lot about.

To keep things fair and even i think its best to judge and compare both vehicles exactly how they're presented forsale.
To restrict evaluation or comparrison by adding or remove production variables such as transmissions, brakes, engines etc in the name of evening up the ledger because these variables create an advantage is pointless because it artificially alters the very essence of the comparrison, and it kind of smells of sour grapes.
You could argue along these lines by saying the BFXR8 could have brembo's and the Boss 290 motor or that the VZ should carry 150kgs extra or loose 20kw's so where does it stop?
I dont buy into this arguement that BF is at an advantage against VZ because its an outgoing model either, the VE is a while away yet, BFII or Orion will take on VE.
Apples V Apples, if Ford turns out to be better value at the moment then so be it, we've copped it the other way before, Ford has worked very hard to improve, now its our turn to lead.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by SSBUB

Its a hypothetical yes, but not to make a stronger case fo the SSZ, to make things more even on this forum itself, how since most go on about how good the tranny is in the falcon, i was interested to see if the opinions were still the same if the new auto wasnt an option.
In other words, if the hype about the BF transmission was dismissed as a factor, would you still prefer the xr8 and on what basis.....for eg, Sundrifter said its technically far superior, but i would like to know, tranny aside, what makes it so? Not flaming or anything, im just seeking opinions as my familiarity with the BF, tranny and 'big brakes' aside (did the xr8 even get the brake package?), i dont know a lot about.

No offence dude, but you must be going for the trifecta in the dumbest arguements anyones ever heard.

Firstly, you say the Euro3 arguement isn't valid. Why. Is the Gen3 all of a sudden compliant? (Maybe this is another of your hypotheticals)

Secondly, other posters talk of the technological merits of the BF over the SSV, and you argue that we should remove these same tech merits for a more even comparison.

Thirdly, you argue that there's quite a significant price increase, (when in actual fact it's about $55) and someone mentions that in jest that they'd pay $10000 more for the BF. You took it literally and based your arguement on not the real figure of $55, not the alleged $1300 from the original derogatory poster, but now the $10000 from someone who was obviously having a lend. Then you run away with it whilst us reasonable people laugh and think that those of your ilk must be jealous of ford.

Fourthly, you defend the indefensible. Whilst this can be seen as meritorious, we are not all stupid to believe that ford in any way have problems severely handicapping their engines in the way of power and torque delivery. On earth, we actually are subject to the laws of physics so for us things like cylinder capacity and its coefficient of air induction (2V versus 4V and the overall greater area for induction of 4V) are important, regardless of what some Holden lackey on the payroll tells us. Especially when the 5.4 has superior torque that is also delivered a lot sooner than a rattling, slapping, pushrodded, oil drinking, toyota sounding hunk of junk coupled to a 1981 3 speed valve bodied auto with a lock up torque converter.

Finally, after protestation by other posters you admit that the Holden is a technological dinosaur, yet you want to denigrate the leaps and bounds made by ford for "hypothetical" comparisons.
"If holden had a car and didn't make it look like a magna, and then put a ford engine and gearbox, and changed the 1988 FE2 suspension to something decent, and then made it Euro3 compliant, and put proper brakes on it, and made it go from 0-100 in 1 second whilst simultaneously massaging your genitals and calling you big boy; would you buy it?

OR

"If ford had the BF but it was only allowed to have the EL driveline and suspension, would you prefer the SSV?"

Stupid indeed.

Here's a hypothetical for all you Holden crazed fans that feel the need to occupy a Ford forum because your forums are like your cars - not quite there.
"If Holden somehow miraculously find $500 million to finalise the VE program because the parent company is in trouble with the US Government and is likely to go into chapter 11, and if they're able to get an old (would be boat anchor except for oil seepage laws) engine to somehow become Euro3 compliant, and if in fact their customer base hasn't deserted like mitsubishi's as further financial details come to light; would you buy a VE commodore"

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by ltd

.......Here's a hypothetical for all you Holden crazed fans that feel the need to occupy a Ford forum because your forums are like your cars - not quite there.......

Lets turn things down a notch, can we please!

This is a Ford Forum, but it is not a narrow minded one! Nor is it insular!

Vigorous debate is fine, but lets not make this personal. We are all entitled to our opinion and to debate them. Whilst i do not agree with SSbub's arguement he has presented it without personal denigrations.

[ltd]

Oh I forgot, to answer the question posed earlier by another nervous SS owner, I would buy the BF because regardless of what anyone tells you, Piston Slap makes second hand car buyers nervous.

[4Vman]

This raises an interesting question, what will be under the hood of an SS come Jan 06?
Gen 3 isnt Euro 3 compliant, HSV have said LS2 is theirs only, Holden dont have the $ to finish VE, so what's going to happen?
Will we see a new engine so quickly? will Holden be forced to go a Euro 3 compliant VZIII till 07 while VE is finished?

[geckoGT]

My interpretation so far is the price rise is less than that of inflation, the BF is compliant to the new laws (SSV is not), BF has superior trans, driveline, brakes, suspension and a motor with a future and the SSV has leather (BF does not). It is a no brainer as far as I am concerned. Did I mention thta in my opinion BA/BF looks tougher?

Not as an attack, but I would suggest some of our holden loving brethren do a little research and base their argument on fact before taking on the blue oval hordes on their own turf.

I can see that lock coming on.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

This raises an interesting question, what will be under the hood of an SS come Jan 06?
Gen 3 isnt Euro 3 compliant, HSV have said LS2 is theirs only, Holden dont have the $ to finish VE, so what's going to happen?

I am tipping no V8 until the finances of the parent company are looking a bit better. I bet the new donk will be less than 5.7L capacity as it will probably come from the US or europe and will not be an aussie production. We will have to wait and see but I would not be surprised if holden goes through a 2 year V8 drought (poor buggers, we went longer than that). Who knows, their replacment may be a superchanged VVT six, they have that technology already.

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by SSBUB

for arguments sake, what would you prefer, a MANUAL (read it again 4vman, a MANUAL) xr8 vs a MANUAL ssz

the 6sp manual in the XR8 is a far better box than the SS anyway (same make - but ratios etc are far superior)

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

I am tipping no V8 until the finances of the parent company are looking a bit better. I bet the new donk will be less than 5.7L capacity as it will probably come from the US or europe and will not be an aussie production. We will have to wait and see but I would not be surprised if holden goes through a 2 year V8 drought (poor buggers, we went longer than that). Who knows, their replacment may be a superchanged VVT six, they have that technology already.

So you're suggesting Holden will cease SS (and all other V8 car) production till VE?
Is the latest campaign to "presell" some of next years V8 cars before the hiatis?
Should people read between the lines with this campaign as holden saying "buy before 06 or you'll have to wait a while"?

[Falcon Coupe]

Pardon my ignorance, but what about the gen makes it not comply, is it simply emissions ? if so how does the larger cappacity LS2 comply ?

[macca_779]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSBUB
Its a hypothetical yes, but not to make a stronger case fo the SSZ, to make things more even on this forum itself, how since most go on about how good the tranny is in the falcon, i was interested to see if the opinions were still the same if the new auto wasnt an option.
In other words, if the hype about the BF transmission was dismissed as a factor, would you still prefer the xr8 and on what basis.....for eg, Sundrifter said its technically far superior, but i would like to know, tranny aside, what makes it so? Not flaming or anything, im just seeking opinions as my familiarity with the BF, tranny and 'big brakes' aside (did the xr8 even get the brake package?), i dont know a lot about.


No offence dude, but you must be going for the trifecta in the dumbest arguements anyones ever heard.

Firstly, you say the Euro3 arguement isn't valid. Why. Is the Gen3 all of a sudden compliant? (Maybe this is another of your hypotheticals)

Secondly, other posters talk of the technological merits of the BF over the SSV, and you argue that we should remove these same tech merits for a more even comparison.

Thirdly, you argue that there's quite a significant price increase, (when in actual fact it's about $55) and someone mentions that in jest that they'd pay $10000 more for the BF. You took it literally and based your arguement on not the real figure of $55, not the alleged $1300 from the original derogatory poster, but now the $10000 from someone who was obviously having a lend. Then you run away with it whilst us reasonable people laugh and think that those of your ilk must be jealous of ford.

Fourthly, you defend the indefensible. Whilst this can be seen as meritorious, we are not all stupid to believe that ford in any way have problems severely handicapping their engines in the way of power and torque delivery. On earth, we actually are subject to the laws of physics so for us things like cylinder capacity and its coefficient of air induction (2V versus 4V and the overall greater area for induction of 4V) are important, regardless of what some Holden lackey on the payroll tells us. Especially when the 5.4 has superior torque that is also delivered a lot sooner than a rattling, slapping, pushrodded, oil drinking, toyota sounding hunk of junk coupled to a 1981 3 speed valve bodied auto with a lock up torque converter.

Finally, after protestation by other posters you admit that the Holden is a technological dinosaur, yet you want to denigrate the leaps and bounds made by ford for "hypothetical" comparisons.
"If holden had a car and didn't make it look like a magna, and then put a ford engine and gearbox, and changed the 1988 FE2 suspension to something decent, and then made it Euro3 compliant, and put proper brakes on it, and made it go from 0-100 in 1 second whilst simultaneously massaging your genitals and calling you big boy; would you buy it?

OR

"If ford had the BF but it was only allowed to have the EL driveline and suspension, would you prefer the SSV?"

Stupid indeed.

Here's a hypothetical for all you Holden crazed fans that feel the need to occupy a Ford forum because your forums are like your cars - not quite there.
"If Holden somehow miraculously find $500 million to finalise the VE program because the parent company is in trouble with the US Government and is likely to go into chapter 11, and if they're able to get an old (would be boat anchor except for oil seepage laws) engine to somehow become Euro3 compliant, and if in fact their customer base hasn't deserted like mitsubishi's as further financial details come to light; would you buy a VE commodore"

clap clap clap clap
lol awesome
I can't wait to see the respone SSBUB has for that.

[macca_779]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

I am tipping no V8 until the finances of the parent company are looking a bit better. I bet the new donk will be less than 5.7L capacity as it will probably come from the US or europe and will not be an aussie production. We will have to wait and see but I would not be surprised if holden goes through a 2 year V8 drought (poor buggers, we went longer than that). Who knows, their replacment may be a superchanged VVT six, they have that technology already.

LS2 meats EURO standards so its a given that this is the engine the 06 will get

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by macca_779

LS2 meats EURO standards so its a given that this is the engine the 06 will get

HSV only im told.
Maybe t5he lack of options will force them to use it? Its going to add allot of expence to an SS if they do..

[macca_779]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

HSV only im told.

I've been informed otherwise. But think about it what engine does holden have at its disposal that meets EURO Spec? LS2 Don't believe the quote's from HSV that its exclusive to them, of course their saying that. If it was public that HOLDEN were about to offer LS2 sales would suffer. And also what do you think is HOLDENS priority, to sell cars or keep HSV happy? O and yeah not sure about the expense but it might even go up by $1300 ""shock horror""

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by macca_779

I've been informed otherwise. But think about it what engine does holden have at its disposal that meets EURO Spec? LS2 Don't believe the quote's from HSV that its exclusive to them, of course their saying that. If it was public that HOLDEN were about to offer LS2 sales would suffer. And also what do you think is HOLDENS priority, to sell cars or keep HSV happy? O and yeah not sure about the expense but it might even go up by $1300 ""shock horror""

Yes i understand your theory, and given holdens dilema it may just happen, imagine how pee'd off HSV owners will get, especially if its only computer de powered!!

[MrSparkle]

I think the bigger issue, which has been around since BA1, is the price discrepancy between XR6T/XR8 ute and XR6T/XR8 sedan.

[macca_779]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yes i understand your theory, and given holdens dilema it may just happen, imagine how pee'd off HSV owners will get, especially if its only computer de powered!!

I don't think it will be that bad I don't believe the majority of people buy HSV's because of their power its more about the package same as FORD/FPV. Remember this happened to VT1 GTS owners and not much happened over it.

[galaxy xr8]

And who pay's full retail price anyway, really the fiqure you see as qouted in the openning post is just a fiqure that goes into magazine's, walk into a dealer's office and see if they will match the opposistion's price and I bet they will come very close to it, dealer's allway's haggle.

[SSBUB]

Originally Posted by ltd

No offence dude, but you must be going for the trifecta in the dumbest arguements anyones ever heard.

Firstly, you say the Euro3 arguement isn't valid. Why. Is the Gen3 all of a sudden compliant? (Maybe this is another of your hypotheticals)

Secondly, other posters talk of the technological merits of the BF over the SSV, and you argue that we should remove these same tech merits for a more even comparison.

Thirdly, you argue that there's quite a significant price increase, (when in actual fact it's about $55) and someone mentions that in jest that they'd pay $10000 more for the BF. You took it literally and based your arguement on not the real figure of $55, not the alleged $1300 from the original derogatory poster, but now the $10000 from someone who was obviously having a lend. Then you run away with it whilst us reasonable people laugh and think that those of your ilk must be jealous of ford.

Fourthly, you defend the indefensible. Whilst this can be seen as meritorious, we are not all stupid to believe that ford in any way have problems severely handicapping their engines in the way of power and torque delivery. On earth, we actually are subject to the laws of physics so for us things like cylinder capacity and its coefficient of air induction (2V versus 4V and the overall greater area for induction of 4V) are important, regardless of what some Holden lackey on the payroll tells us. Especially when the 5.4 has superior torque that is also delivered a lot sooner than a rattling, slapping, pushrodded, oil drinking, toyota sounding hunk of junk coupled to a 1981 3 speed valve bodied auto with a lock up torque converter.


Finally, after protestation by other posters you admit that the Holden is a technological dinosaur, yet you want to denigrate the leaps and bounds made by ford for "hypothetical" comparisons.
"If holden had a car and didn't make it look like a magna, and then put a ford engine and gearbox, and changed the 1988 FE2 suspension to something decent, and then made it Euro3 compliant, and put proper brakes on it, and made it go from 0-100 in 1 second whilst simultaneously massaging your genitals and calling you big boy; would you buy it?

OR

"If ford had the BF but it was only allowed to have the EL driveline and suspension, would you prefer the SSV?"

Stupid indeed.

Here's a hypothetical for all you Holden crazed fans that feel the need to occupy a Ford forum because your forums are like your cars - not quite there.
"If Holden somehow miraculously find $500 million to finalise the VE program because the parent company is in trouble with the US Government and is likely to go into chapter 11, and if they're able to get an old (would be boat anchor except for oil seepage laws) engine to somehow become Euro3 compliant, and if in fact their customer base hasn't deserted like mitsubishi's as further financial details come to light; would you buy a VE commodore"

You have way too much time on your hands...to answer your post:
The gen3 is not compliant, we all know that, so what are they going to do, rip all the current gen3's out of cars that are running around with them? Im talking about ther here and now which is the BF XR8 and SSZ. Euro compliance isnt a factor JUST YET.

Noone has explained the tech merits to me, all i ever here is 'wow the box is good'. Hence me asking what these merits are.

I never argued there was a significant price increase. If you look over my posts i even said if your paying upwards of 50k, another 2k is nothing. And i responded to a one eye who said they would pay 10k more for a Falcon rather than a Commodore. And no i didnt run away with it, i just found this amusing and you 'reasonable' people can laugh all you want, you should be laughing at the person who wasnt actually having a lend but more likely being serious, and no, im not jelous of YOUR fords as you so aptly put it.

And to quote yourself '
Especially when the 5.4 has superior torque that is also delivered a lot sooner than a rattling, slapping, pushrodded, oil drinking, toyota sounding hunk of junk coupled to a 1981 3 speed valve bodied auto with a lock up torque converter.'
This is just opinion mate. I could rattle off some ford faults, but i wont stoop to your level because i respect ford vehicles for their plusses and minuses. It seems you are Ford or nothing which is a shame.

Im not even going to answer your last statement because its just a holden attack. Come back to me with something useful, not deragatory.

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

I think the bigger issue, which has been around since BA1, is the price discrepancy between XR6T/XR8 ute and XR6T/XR8 sedan.

I agree with this. Last week Ford had ads in the papers running out the BA XR6 at $32,000. I thought this is pretty good - and heck, how much more can they be asking for the BA XR8? Drove down to the dealer to find out. Turned out to be $13,000 more.....

And then they offered me a $7,000 trade-in on the AU Ghia 5.0 with 91,000km.

I decided to keep the AU.

[csv8]

MOPAR MAN . 300C is nearly here!!!!

[geckoGT]

Find very many other manufacturers that still use push rod, single cam, not many! it is dinosaur technology that is running in borrowed time. Don't give the "it's proven technology" line, so was the side vavle before it died a evolutionary death. The single cam V8 will die, the fickle market place will see to that.

SS (from holden web page)

POWER (ECE, kW) 175 @ 6000 rpm 190 @ 6500 rpm 250 @ 5600 rpm

TORQUE (ECE, Nm) 320 @ 2800 rpm 340 @ 3200 rpm 470 @ 4800 rpm

Obviously the last line are the figures for the V8

XR8 (from ford web site)

260kW of power @ 5250rpm and 500Nm of torque @ 4000rpm1

Power and torque are both higher in the XR8 and both come in at lower revs.
Although I will agree that the argument of which engine has which problem should be left out, as both have issues and we are talking of cars that have not been on the market long enough to know if they still have those problems. Therefore such an argument would be totally unproductive.

[ozzyjim]

Originally Posted by macca_779

I don't think it will be that bad I don't believe the majority of people buy HSV's because of their power its more about the package same as FORD/FPV. Remember this happened to VT1 GTS owners and not much happened over it.

I think HSV will be hit and hurt hard if the SS does go 6lt, i believe the whole package bit, but i personally think that the SS package is quite good and getting better, stuff a 6lt in it and i would not even think about the extra cash for a HSV vehicle. Didnt one of the lastest motor mags have the SS with quicker times at the track (not strip) than the HSV? Now imagine its quicker at the track, equals it at the strip, with all the SSV goodies, bye bye HSV.

Cheers
Jim

[ltd]

Originally Posted by SSBUB

The gen3 is not compliant, we all know that, so what are they going to do, rip all the current gen3's out of cars that are running around with them? Im talking about ther here and now which is the BF XR8 and SSZ.

OK then I'll bite.

Originally Posted by SSBUB

Read your 2nd paragraph. We are talking SSZ not SS. The SSZ is out now with the Ls1, so the euro3 compliance argument is out the window. As for the VE, who can fortune tell?

Seems like you're inferring that the LS1 is compliant

Originally Posted by SSBUB

This is just opinion mate. I could rattle off some ford faults, but i wont stoop to your level because i respect ford vehicles for their plusses and minuses

Hmmm. As for the opinion thing it is an opinion shared by a large proportion of the members of this forum. (check the title and tell me where the holden name is). I admire your objectivity in the matter though by not listing Ford's faults because you would know. You told us.

Originally Posted by SSBUB

As for the Boss i wouldnt know. I dont pretend to know.

Originally Posted by SSBUB

Im not even going to answer your last statement because its just a holden attack. Come back to me with something useful, not deragatory.

Ahh, the moral high ground. After insinuating that we are "one eye", yet we are all expected to sit here and take your subtle jibes at Ford. To use your vernacular; "check your post".
I have noticed that in most if not all posts you are in, you are espousing Holden propoganda under the guise that "I like both cars", yet you have never actually said anything positive about ford or their new models or their technology have you. It's always been a subtle little jab here, dig there at ford and in any poll at any cost choose Holden.

Kim Beazley lost the 2001 election because he sat on the fence and tried to have it both ways on asylum seekers; so I ask you, as the owner of a Holden who constantly reminds us that you like both brands yet regularly choose holden; what side of the fence do you sit on? To me and others it seems you're really an antagonising Holden fan, playing both sides against eachother yet careful and subtle enough to not overstep the line.

I realise that you quite rightfully can accuse me of espousing Ford propoganda, but again I ask you to look in your address bar and note the name. These forums are Ford's turf. We don't join holden forums, create misleading posts and put the boot in there to annoy people, we discuss things here.

And by the way I am not a Ford only person. I am a never again Holden person who saw the light.