Bad press for Toyota and Lexus........something different

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I find it a joke that people call the NSX "Japan's only supercar," which the GT-R Skyline absolutley destroyed them in every possible aspect of performance.

A bloke i know just bought a genuine R/34 skyline, he says it has 180rwkw bog stock, would that be right ?

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

A bloke i know just bought a genuine R/34 skyline, he says it has 180rwkw bog stock, would that be right ?

Was it a GT-R or 25GT-t (2.5 single Turbo, RWD, 206kW claimed)?

The R34 GT-R was claimed to have 206kW and 392Nm, at about 1600kg, with 0-100km/h in 4.9 seconds, 1/4 mile in 12.9 seconds and an unrestricted top speed eclipsing 250km/h (all Jap made cars in Japan have 180km/h speed limiters by law).

206kW was a lie in both of those cars, the 25GT-t was almost as heavy and did mid 13's.

[Yaw]

I for one don't get the argument that toyotas look boring?????
And the stock Falcon or Commodore is exicting???????
If your gunna do comparisons at least look at the base models,
Camry/Falcon/Commodore/380/Avalon/Magna/etc

All of them have thier charms, but base models are not overly exciting (current models included)

What I do think looks like an exciting car is the Aurion. That in a base model does not look plain.

Another example of this same argument back in 1974-1976
I challenge anyone to have an open mind and try this some day,
Put your imagination into gear and think of them as brand new cars,
Get into a 74-76 Falcon, next Get into a 74-76 Kingswood/Premier/Belmont,
and last of all get into a 240K Datsun.

I garauntee the most appealing car and "sporty" car is the 240K

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Steffo

No, the normal NSX would be overjoyed with a 13.5. If that.

The 12.8 was the NSX Type-S Zero. A low production numbers, special thing. Not that special.

The Type-S Zero is the only one that's as fast as a 355, the rest don't stand a hope in hell.

I find it a joke that people call the NSX "Japan's only supercar," which the GT-R Skyline absolutley destroyed them in every possible aspect of performance.

Heres a standard NSX in the US that ran 13.17@108mph, and it was the heavier T-top model. Anyone knows that 108mph is fast enought to hit 12s. Two pages on, the 355 they tested virtually ran the exact same time and mph.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...6.html?page=10

The ones ive seen run 12.8 have been S-Zeros, but the engine is still the same, the car is just a little lighter.

[XR Martin]

Oh BTW Steffo, heres a video clearly showing the R34 GTR not being quicker around a race track than an NSX. Not only does the R34 get a hiding, so does the Porsche GT3 : With both of them coming 3rd and 4th and posting the slowest lap times :

http://www.sturmovik.org/Vids/Best_M...SX-R_race.mpeg

[killer_taxi]

The Honda NSX is continually underrated and over looked. People need to get pass the fact that it has a Honda badge. I think some people need educating on the subject of this car.

Here are some main points:

- The car was designed with the input of Ayrton Senna.

- Wheels magazine Australia awarded the Honda NSX the 1991 Car of the Year award.

- Still, for a time, it sported the highest per-litre specific output of any road-going naturally aspirated V6 in the world and is exceptionally fast for the motor's relatively low power output versus comparable "supercars".

- The American (Acura) models are commonly known to achieve a 13.3 second quarter-mile time (1997+ model years), while the Japanese NSX-R (2002+) is known to perform a 12.8 second quarter-mile. The surprising performance is due mostly to a high 8,000 rpm redline, flat power curve, short gears, and mid-engine layout.

- The subtle changes along with its renowned handling have kept NSX-R in contention on the track even against considerably higher-powered cars, such as the Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale, whose Nordschleife lap time it tied.

- McLaren F1 designer and evo magazine contributing editor Gordon Murray credits the NSX as one of the most significant cars of the 1990s, calling it the worlds "first practical, well made, rear-mid-engined supercar." According to him, thanks to the NSX, established supercar companies, especially Ferrari, were forced to upgrade their engineering and build quality and not just rely on the prestige and mystique of their name.

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_NSX

I also suggest downloading this video:http://www.racingflix.com/getvideo.asp?v=1323&p=6

[killer_taxi]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Oh BTW Steffo, heres a video clearly showing the R34 GTR not being quicker around a race track than an NSX. Not only does the R34 get a hiding, so does the Porsche GT3 : With both of them coming 3rd and 4th and posting the slowest lap times :

http://www.sturmovik.org/Vids/Best_M...SX-R_race.mpeg

Here's another video to support your point:http://www.racingflix.com/getvideo.asp?v=828

[MITCHAY]

Some people need to see a NSX in real life just to appreciate how good a car they are.

[Poetic Justice]

Theres a bloke in the Croydon area with a blue one. Wouldn't say he values it much :P

[perrys]

well, again monaroCountry. Post some half detailed article against Toyota everywhere you can. Let me explain for you then. From the Insurance Institute's website:

"ALSO-RANS
Rear protection isn't good

These vehicles earned good ratings in front and side crash tests. They have electronic stability control, standard or optional. They would have won 2007 TOP SAFETY PICK awards if their seat/head restraints also had earned good ratings. Instead rear crash protection is rated acceptable, marginal, or poor (Honda reports that the seat/head restraints in the only Civic model with electronic stability control wouldn’t be rated good).

Acceptable rear protection
Audi A3
BMW 3-series 4dr
Lexus IS 250/350

Marginal rear protection
Acura TL
Honda Odyssey
Lexus ES 350
Lexus GS 350
Toyota Camry
Toyota FJ Cruiser
Toyota Prius
Toyota RAV4

Poor rear protection
Honda Accord 4dr
Infiniti M35
Nissan Quest
Toyota Avalon
Toyota Sienna"


Basically all those Toyotas painted as "dangerous" by the article would have been Top Picks were their rear impact results better.

[perrys]

BTW, the Lexus GS300/350 earned the highest Euro NCAP score EVER.

The New Camry got PERFECT scores in IIHS's frontal and side-impact tests, a feat NOT matched by other midsized sedans such as the Mercedes E-Class, the BMW 5-series, the Audi A6, the Volvo S60, etc, which all got worse test results.

How much safer than Toyota do you want?

[perrys]

As for Japanese build quality, most European will tell you Toyota/Honda is more reliable. What European exceeds is engineering and design.

We should give other car cultures respect they deserve. New Supra, NSX, GTR are all due in next 2 years, and Lexus has a new performance series called F to take on AMG, M, and RS. I think 5.0 V8 IS-F and V10 LF-A will spice the things up a bit when they come out. RESPECT.

[monaroCountry]

A bloke i know just bought a genuine R/34 skyline, he says it has 180rwkw bog stock, would that be right ?

180's would be a bit high. They usually have somewhere around 165-175rwkw. Theres plenty of absurd claims by nissan guys on how fast a stock GTR goes. Many stock gtrs would have a very hard time getting mid 13's, many are running on tired engines. times from the US and Japan usually differ from those achieved in australia.

Obviously the ones on the list were not as safe as people expect. They could have done better, they should have done better, especially the premium toyotas like the lexus.

[Falcon Coupe]

This is the car he bought, picks it up today i believe, very clean with 35,000 klm.

LINK

[MethodX]

Wow a tasteful stock looking Skyline.

Amazing.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by perrys

BTW, the Lexus GS300/350 earned the highest Euro NCAP score EVER.

The New Camry got PERFECT scores in IIHS's frontal and side-impact tests, a feat NOT matched by other midsized sedans such as the Mercedes E-Class, the BMW 5-series, the Audi A6, the Volvo S60, etc, which all got worse test results.

How much safer than Toyota do you want?

I dont want a broken neck when im rear ended, that how much safer I want.

[pb02]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Some people need to see a NSX in real life just to appreciate how good a car they are.

Having driven one that a mate of mine owned a few years ago I think they dated very quickly and never had sufficient upgrades to justify the price.
My mate regretted buying his, took him about a year to sell as they aren't very popular. The fit and finish was great but I was very dissapointed in the way it drove and even handled. And before you say anything about being biased I've owned a number of different honda products from motorbikes to an S2000 and loved all of them.
I would take an old Porsche over an NSX anyday.

[perrys]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

I dont want a broken neck when im rear ended, that how much safer I want.

I can assure you that Toyota is trying. New Lexus LS in Japan offers the World first Rear end collision detection system which fasten the seatbelt and adjust the seat to upright when a rear collision is detected. Believe me, this feature will be availalbe on bread and butter Toyotas in 10 years, just like what happend to S-class's Airbags and ABS.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by perrys

I can assure you that Toyota is trying. New Lexus LS in Japan offers the World first Rear end collision detection system which fasten the seatbelt and adjust the seat to upright when a rear collision is detected. Believe me, this feature will be availalbe on bread and butter Toyotas in 10 years, just like what happend to S-class's Airbags and ABS.

Your not Conomos in disguise r u?

[perrys]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Your not Conomos in disguise r u?

Im a Lexus fan whos sick of monaroCountry. Just try to bring a bit of balance to the thread, thats it.

Cheers.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Oh BTW Steffo, heres a video clearly showing the R34 GTR not being quicker around a race track than an NSX. Not only does the R34 get a hiding, so does the Porsche GT3 : With both of them coming 3rd and 4th and posting the slowest lap times :

http://www.sturmovik.org/Vids/Best_M...SX-R_race.mpeg

Its a Best (Worst?) Motoring vid. The most biased to Japanese cars, biased to AWD cars, incorrect source you can provide.

They have such videos as a Corvette Z06 (C5, 405hp 400ftlbs 5.7 LS6) losing around a circuit to an Evo4, Evo5, WRX STi, NSX, NSX Type-S Zero, R33 GT-R, R34 GT-R, Clio V6 Mk1 (235hp) etc and lots of other such funnies of things that won't happen.

It's about as accurate as using Top Gear Powerlaps to justify your claims, ie: not very. Find a better source then them. If you're going for Magazine-style stuff, Evo, Sport-Auto, Motor, Wheels etc etc. Far more believeable and accurate information will come from them then shows like Top Gear or Best Motoring. Fifth Gear is decent too, except that Tiff doesn't really like to give any car a bad review.

Oh, and I looked this up, and laughed quited a bit...

Nurburgring-Nordschleife lap times:

Honda NSX-R, 320 PS/1467kg, 8:09 (Sport Auto 08/02)
Honda NSX-R, 320 PS/1467kg, 7:56.73 - Incomplete Lap (Best Motoring Video, "Carrera Invasion")

Now lets have a bit of fun with cars that beat the best-ever NSX...

Mercedes-Benz SL55 AMG, 500 PS/2150kg, 8:06 (Sport Auto 04/02)

Nissan Skyline R33 GT-R, 280 PS/1650kg, 7:59 (Dirk Schoymans, Autocar Magazine 97)

Porsche 911 Carrera S (997), 355 PS/1461kg, 7:59 (Walter Roherl, Wheels 06/04)

BMW M3 CSL, 360 PS/1421kg, 7:50 (Sport Auto 08/03)

Porsche 911 GT3 (996) 381 PS/1391kg, 7:49 (AutoBild 2004)

Porsche 911 GT3 (997) 415 PS/1440kg, 7:48 (Sport Auto 07/06)

Audi RS4 4.2 V8 FSI, 420 PS/1650kg, 7:58 (Frank Stippler, 10/05)

BMW M6, 507 PS/1761kg, 8:07.76 (Prinz Luitpold von Bayern, Autobild 02/06)

Well gee. It can't beat a luxury convertible land-yacht SL55. What a great car. :

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

This is the car he bought, picks it up today i believe, very clean with 35,000 klm.

LINK

Very nice. And yeah, 180kW at the wheels is pretty normal for an R34 GT-R V-SpecII. They're generally in the 180-185 range.

[s2_hyundai_s2]

anyone like nissan pulsar ET's or exa's out there

[XR Martin]

Nurburgring comes down to the driver more aften than not. Its virtually impossible to have a perfect lap, actually ill be happy to say its impossible to post a perfect lap there.
Even the experts agree. Not only that, the track always has cars on it, so you've always got spend time overtaking slower cars. Also after one or two laps the tyres would be destroyed in a road car, so consistant times could never be achieved without racing slicks.

30secs would be easy to find or loose around there depending on what temperature it was or how many cars are out with you. Look at the Top gear episode where Jeremy drives a Diesel Jag around there. He shaves off minutes of his initial lap. Not everyone has that luxury of spending all day there.

It certianly not the great perfect benchmark that some people think it is.

I posted a vid quite clearly showing it was faster around a particular track than a GT3 or R34 GTR. All you can say that its biased, without any evidence. Biased towards AWD cars? The NSX is RWD.
I also posted another source quite clearly showing it was as fast as a 355 in a straight line, contrary to what you said earlier. Obviously forgot to post that you dismissed it or believed it was biased.

[XR Martin]

BTW Best Motoring is no more biased towards Jap cars as Euro mags are to Euro cars, US mags are to US cars, etc etc

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Nurburgring comes down to the driver more aften than not. Its virtually impossible to have a perfect lap, actually ill be happy to say its impossible to post a perfect lap there.
Even the experts agree. Not only that, the track always has cars on it, so you've always got spend time overtaking slower cars. Also after one or two laps the tyres would be destroyed in a road car, so consistant times could never be achieved without racing slicks.

30secs would be easy to find or loose around there depending on what temperature it was or how many cars are out with you. Look at the Top gear episode where Jeremy drives a Diesel Jag around there. He shaves off minutes of his initial lap. Not everyone has that luxury of spending all day there.

It certianly not the great perfect benchmark that some people think it is.

I posted a vid quite clearly showing it was faster around a particular track than a GT3 or R34 GTR. All you can say that its biased, without any evidence. Biased towards AWD cars? The NSX is RWD.
I also posted another source quite clearly showing it was as fast as a 355 in a straight line, contrary to what you said earlier. Obviously forgot to post that you dismissed it or believed it was biased.

Best Motoring are very biased. Especially towards Japanese cars when they compare them towards anything else. Just watch some of their videos.

I saw the 13.17 @ 108 1/4 post in the NSX and didn't comment because I didn't feel the need. Though I will comment on your reasoning that 108mph is good for a 12. It may be, but that doesn't mean the NSX will hit a 12. Supercars usually trap at high MPH, often due to the high amounts of power they have, however due to other constraints, like chassis and suspension, they will never run the times they trap enough speed for. Why? Because they're set up for balance. Good handling, acceleration, top speed etc. The Porsche Carrera GT runs low 11's and traps at 130-135mph. Enough for a high 9. Don't expect to ever run a high 9 in one, but then take it to a track and see what it can do.

And yes, it is very difficult to compare by Nurburgring times, I agree totally. I just thought those numbers were pretty ammusing. Especially the 8:06 SL55 vs 8:09 NSX-R.

One thing though, the Clarkson video was done without at a normal open public track day. Alot of those times I posted were done on closed-off from the public days. Like Walter Roherl in the Porsches. He is the Porsche factory est driver and they test there. They close the track off for them, he needs to overtake no traffic. If I'm not mistaken, when the Radical SR8 set the 6:55.6 outright lap record for a street car there, it was on a closed to the public day also. They're alot more comparable then you say, however as a general guide, not for utmost accuracy.

Anyway, point is, NSX = very very overrated, underperforming, overpriced. It was fast when it was released. And then got beaten by everyone. Which is usually what happens when you don't update a car for almost 15 years and still charge outrageous prices for it (250k for an NSX brand new in 2002 was a joke, a faster, better 911 GT3 was 240k).

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

BTW Best Motoring is no more biased towards Jap cars as Euro mags are to Euro cars, US mags are to US cars, etc etc

You'll find US Mags are very biased towards Euro cars, constantly awarding them wins over their US counterparts. Just read some Car & Driver, Motortrend and Road & Track 911 Turbo, Ferrari F430, Lamborghini Gallardo vs C6 Z06, Ford GT and Viper SRT-10 reviews for yourself.

[killer_taxi]

What’s the problem Steffo? Why deny the NSX as being a great car? Stop doing your best to put it down. Why not focus on what the NSX did achieve and how it impacted on the supercar world. Go back and read my last post. If the NSX is not your idea of a supercar, leave it alone.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by killer_taxi

What’s the problem Steffo? Why deny the NSX as being a great car? Stop doing your best to put it down. Why not focus on what the NSX did achieve and how it impacted on the supercar world. Go back and read my last post. If the NSX is not your idea of a supercar, leave it alone.

The NSX was a good car when it first came out almost 20 years ago. Not the best, but very good. Except it didn't change and everything else did. And therefore its inferiority to more modern opposition becomes unavoidable.

[Falcon Coupe]

Have Top gear got the GTR and NSX on their times board, i wonder how the Stig would go driving them ?