No terrorists in Australia, says Habib

[Lumpen Proletariat]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

The US and UK did not finance and equip the Taliban. After the Russian withdrawal in 1989 they ceased funding to the area. Taliban took power in 1996.
The Afghan commander who organised the fight agaisnt the Russians and later the Taliban was actually killed by Al Qaeda.

You are really over simplifying a very complicated conflict.

I was referring to the Muhajadin of Afghanistan not the Taliban, which rose in power 4 years after the end of the Russo-Afghan War. The Taliban, as extremist as it is, was still a faction of the Muhajadin. At the time, they were fighting the Russian's, a common enemy.

The old saying. An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

There is no denying that these groups were trained and supported by the United States and United Kingdom including people such as Osama Bin Laden...

Originally Posted by Robin Cook, former leader of the British House of Commons and Foreign Secretary from 1997-2001

Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians

Lumpy

[GXL078]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

WELL HE WAS TRAINING WITH A TERRORIST ORGANISATION . any religion that gives glory to killing other people/or yourself can go and get . why would GOD create people to be killed by other people .surely hes capable of that himself!!and 2ndly if he wanted them dead , then why create them in the 1st place . people really are fooking stupid aren't they ????? anyhow back on topic . there were better places to go for holidays , the gold coast for example, no beheadings , no nuns,and a shooters gallary.

Have you read the old testament?

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Lumpen Proletariat

I
There is no denying that these groups were trained and supported by the United States and United Kingdom including people such as Osama Bin Laden...

This is true (doesnt anyone watch Rambo movies? The "freedom fighters" even get a shout out when the credits are rolling) and is something that has occured countless times. ie. Iraq received VERY strong support when it was waging the war with Iraq.

Lol, possibly one of the most twisted pieces of irony, i think it was actually donald rumsfeld who met with saddam on behalf of reagan to provide the statement of US support. The US then proceeded to supply Iraq with weapons, chemicals (including ANTHRAX!!!) etc.

But hey... it's a twisted world, and those of us discussing the matter in online forums have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. These things arent black and white (until 20 years later when you look back on them). David Hicks rolled the dice in a pretty messed up game in a messed up part of the world. Snake eyes... everybody loses.

[bEAn86]

i havnt seen any terrorists around the place so maybe he is right

[Lumpen Proletariat]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Lol, possibly one of the most twisted pieces of irony, i think it was actually donald rumsfeld who met with saddam on behalf of reagan to provide the statement of US support. The US then proceeded to supply Iraq with weapons, chemicals (including ANTHRAX!!!) etc.

A very interesting read, if a little controversial is Profits of War by Ari Ben Menashe. Can't buy it in Australia (even though it was published here...) but can get it from Amazon.com. It highlights the Israeli Arm's Deals with place like Iran and their interaction with the CIA run arm's deals running in South America and Iraq.

Menashe was the actual dealer and money man for the Israeli's and also a signatory on the CIA's multi-billion dollar arms slushfund, which was used to finance alot of the facist overthrow's in South America and arm groups such as the Taliban.

The book also implicates Regan, Bush Snr and even Hawke and the WA Labor Government of the time. Hawke was even grilled in a Royal Commission over the parking of planes at an Airforce or Army base before being onsold to Iran (I think). It was either the Hope or the Samuels/Codd Royal Commission.


Lumpy

[XR Martin]

The whole of Europe supplied chemical and biological weapons to Iraq, the US's contribution was fairly minor compared to countries like Brazil who supplied 100tons of Mustard Gas (which was used against Iran - unlike Anthrax), and France, who supplied 20% of Iraq's chemical weapons.

The Radical Islamic government of Iran was a much bigger threat than Iraq, so you try and help who is less violatile to the region. In the 80s it was Iraq, who eventually took the support too far, by thinking that their 'allies' wouldnt do anything if they invaded Kuwait (and eventually Saudi Arabia).

An Austrian company gave Iraq calutrons for enriching uranium. The nation also provided heat exchangers, tanks, condensers, and columns for the Iraqi chemical weapons infrastructure, 16% of the international sales. Singapore gave 4,515 tons of precursors for VX, sarin, tabun, and mustard gasses to Iraq. The Dutch gave 4,261 tons of precursors for sarin, tabun, mustard, and tear gasses to Iraq. Egypt gave 2,400 tons of tabun and sarin precursors to Iraq and 28,500 tons of weapons designed for carrying chemical munitions. India gave 2,343 tons of precursors to VX, tabun, Sarin, and mustard gasses. Luxembourg gave Iraq 650 tons of mustard gas precursors. Spain gave Iraq 57,500 munitions designed for carrying chemical weapons. In addition, they provided reactors, condensers, columns and tanks for Iraq’s chemical warfare program, 4.4% of the international sales. China provided 45,000 munitions designed for chemical warfare. Portugal provided yellowcake between 1980 and 1982. Niger provided yellowcake in 1981

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

Have you read the old testament?

YES . And the new one . i'm not religiuos anymore . but like to believe GOD is there .

[Lumpen Proletariat]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

The whole of Europe supplied chemical and biological weapons to Iraq, the US's contribution was fairly minor compared to countries like Brazil who supplied 100tons of Mustard Gas (which was used against Iran - unlike Anthrax), and France, who supplied 20% of Iraq's chemical weapons.

On the surface yes. However, reading Ben Menashe's expose you get the idea that the main point of a 'secret sub-government slush fund' conducting various illegal activities in order to finance other illegal activities is that it is secret. The 'fertiliser' factories in South America were run with directions and supplies from the CIA. Chemical went down, drugs came back.

South America was also a staging point for US second hand arms sales to many rouge nations (being sold from another country circumvented US arm's dealing laws). Even Alan Bond had interest in some chemical weapons producing plants in Chile or Argentina (pretty sure Chile) though unerringly. He had a controlling interest in the National Telecommunications Company.

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

The Radical Islamic government of Iran was a much bigger threat than Iraq, so you try and help who is less violatile to the region. In the 80s it was Iraq, who eventually took the support too far, by thinking that their 'allies' wouldnt do anything if they invaded Kuwait (and eventually Saudi Arabia).

Ayotollah Kohmeni wasn't enough of a threat to have Carter take any action with any of the Middle East Battle Fleet floating in the Arabian Gulf at the time of the revolution. Also, there must have been some thought given to the fact that he was in essence usurping the Nationalist/Socialist revolution.

Also, a Ben Menashe point's out in his book Israel always believed that Saddam was the greater threat and this was a major sticking point in US-Israel relations. It is also why Israel solely supplied, though not supported Iran while the US mainly supplied Iraq (though, as Iranagate showed, they still played the field). No doubt Kohmeni's Fatwah to treat Iranian Jew's fairly (they helped fund the him in his French exile as they feared the Socialist's and were oppressed by the Shah) also swung the Israeli's towards supporting Iran.


I would like to know exactly what was given to Iraq by all these nations. Term's like 'Precursors to...' and 'Munitions for the delivery of...' are all a bit vauge aren't they?

For example, some Sarin gas precursors include:
A chemical used in the manufacture of herbicides, insecticides, plasticisers and oil additives.
Another one is used to Flouridate drinking water.
The third is a common component in processed petrol (used to control ping) and the final ingredient? Alcohol.

Jeez, all those chemicals for growing food, promoting health and exploiting one of the worlds largest supplies of oil must be incredibly suspicious.

No doubt we in Australia import hundred's if not thousands of tonnes of these same Sarin Gas Precursors every year.

I find this tidbit interesting too

Originally Posted by Andrew Beitch, The Guardian, 6 April 1984

British firms sold thousands of kilos of the basic ingredients of nerve and mustard gas to Iraq and Iran last year, the Department of Trade confirmed yesterday... the Department’s figures show that 2,000 kilograms of methyl phosphonyl difluoride has been exported to Iraq. This is the basic ingredient of the nerve gas Sarin... British firms also sold 38,000 kilograms of dimethyl methylphosphonate and other Sarin ingredients to Iraq.

You can bet your bottom dollar too, that Baron Mark Thatcher, son of the horrible slag Margaret (Then PM) would have been right in the thick of UK weapons supplies to Iraq. Legally and otherwise.

Assuming a density of 1.1g/cc for Sarin Gas (at 293K) then 1000kg of Sarin would occupy about 905L. When you start talking about 30 plus tonnes in just one given year from one given country, these start to be massive storage volumes needed over a 35 year reign. Yet for some reason, none of it has yet been accounted for, even with one soldier every three square kilometers...



And a munition designed for carrying Chemical Weapon's? Why, that can be nothing more than a mortar round designed to take any number of charges from smoke bombs to sarin.



Lumpy

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

I had it explained to my by a young muslim guy who knows a couple of people from his Mosque that were arrested.
1. The guy they caught with wires and electronics components was an auto electrican
2. The guy caught with drums of chemicals was a painter.

And then he tells me that the terrorists are not really terrorists its just the way the media portrays them. Everything they do (eg: suicide bombing) is to get payments for their families because they are destitute, as though they have no other choice. I stopped listening after the statement "and that's why I don't like democracy"

It really concerns me that they let this guy work for a major city newspaper. He has a degree in communications engineering, I wonder why he can't get a job doing that?

There is killing in Iraq, that is just a computer game.......