Falcon I6 to be dropped in favour of a V6 - Page 4

blackahcdx · 11-07-2007, 03:14 PM

it will be a sad day indeed if/when the I6 is laid to rest.

One good thing to come from it if it does cease to exist will be the better weight distrubution bough on by the shorter V6 design.

XR8Master · 11-07-2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steel_dot

Doesnt worry me if it's an I6 or a V6. As long as it's a good engine (ie good fuel economy, power and torque, size and weight are also factors). Engine development is very expensive, doesn't make sense if Ford globally have two similiar types of engine.

I personally didnt think much of the I6 pre-BA. With the BA, the I6 became a great engine. The turbo made it even better.

If the falcon is still designed in Oz and the engine is sourced overseas, it'll still be a falcon to me. Plus the general public wouldnt have a clue and wouldnt care if its an I6 or V6.

You personally didn't think much of the pre BA I6 ? 172kW @ 5000rpm and 374Nm @ 3500rpm-3500rpm you must be insane

DK30RB · 11-07-2007, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irlewy86

The difference in fuel consumption (as per ADR testing) is .3L per 100k. This may have something to do with the car not carrying a tailshaft and rear diff, which means a whole lot more in the total design of car. I mean for the lousy 40cents a litre you save what is the increase cost of front tyres not to mention the initial difference in purchase price. Don't patronise me with the so called Aurion superiority myth. Give me 3 months with an Aurion and I'll pick more faults in it than a Nissan Tida. The rest of the world has an enormous amount of respect for the durability of Australian designed and built cars, seems like the place it dosen't get respect is at home.

I've just spent 4 months in an Aurion ZR6. Sure it's front wheel drive, but lets face it for the general public (the ones who make up the buying public), want a car that gets them from A-B smoothly, cheaply and reliably.

In the 4 months so far in the Aurion (7500km) i've had 1 dodgy sensor on the car, which was replaced no questions asked.

In the first 4 months (8000km) i had my new BA xr6, i was towed 4 times, and went in for repairs 16times. I don't need to go into all the hassles i had with my BA, there are pages of peoples issues with Fords on this forum.

The point is, the Aurion may not be dynamically better than a Falcon, but it's Cheaper, Quicker, more reliable (in my experience), smoother and more fuel efficient. Don't even get me started on depreciation.

Compare a ZR6. Mine a Feb 07 model drive away for $42,200 - comes with the following standard features not on the XR6 as standard :

Leather, Traction control, dual zone climate, premium Audio, full function trip computer, 6 speed auto, smart start keyless ignition/entry, and 8 way power adjustment for both front seats.

Take a look at which way the fleet companies are heading. Technology, or the "perception" of technology (as some people here put it) sells.

XR8Master · 11-07-2007, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DK30RB

mmmh lets see.....

3.5litre V6 Toyota Aurion. 200kw, 9.8l per 100. Quicker than a falcon.

4litre I6 Ford Falcon 190kw, higher fuel consumption. Slower than Aurion.

Drive both cars back to back and then HONESTLY say which one is smoother.

V6 toyota leaves the I6 for dead...... Face reality, it's not just a brainwashed misconception. In most cases (not all) a V6 will be soother, more powerfull and more fuel efficient compared to an equivalent I6.

Its the year 2007 - Not 1960 which is where ford should have left the I6.

I think you have stumbled up on the wrong forum, the correct address is www.Toyotaforums.com.au

I would like to see each engine rack up 300 000km and see who holds superiority then, Perhaps that is why Aurion uses the same engine in its high preformance 270km 550nm turbo car that's already been around for over 3 years... oh wait a minute... its 200kw version is its high preformance vehicle.

DK30RB · 11-07-2007, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobman

Mmm, what have you got to say about BMW then? Which is far superior than both Ford and Toyota.

I hope the I6 stays, it's a durable torquey engine with the unique 'straight six' sound, unlike the tinny sounding V6's as on new Commodore or Toyota's.

How much do you need to spend on a BMW I6 that has figures close to that of a Falcon or Aurion. Lets compare apples with apples.

DK30RB · 11-07-2007, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR8Master

I think you have stumbled up on the wrong forum, the correct address is www.Toyotaforums.com.au

I would like to see each engine rack up 300 000km and see who holds superiority then, Perhaps that is why Aurion uses the same engine in its high preformance 270km 550nm turbo car that's already been around for over 3 years... oh wait a minute... its 200kw version is its high preformance vehicle.

Oh wait another minute. 240kw Supercharged TRD. May not be 270kw, but it isn't bad for a first effort crack at a performance model.

Remember the days of the early Tickford XR6 (before fpv) it was only around 8-10kw more than a standard model - and was named as the performance model.

Who does 300,000km anymore. Cars are cheap enough to replace well before 300,000km.

AussieJason · 11-07-2007, 03:37 PM

I'm sure the I6 will be phased out, just as the Falcon itself is probably nearing the end.

It's quite likely the I6 will remain for Orion , but will be very doubful in any later "all new Falcon" series, if the Falcon itself even survives this generation.

XR8Master · 11-07-2007, 03:40 PM

I just had a look at the Actual camry stats and the 200kw camry is no where near the power of the Ford I6 and anyone who thinks the camry has a better more powerfull engine is insane

Figures speak for themselves

Camry
336Nm @ 4700rpm
200kW @ 6200rpm

Ford
190kW @ 5250rpm
383Nm @ 2500rpm

If I was selecting an engine for my 900kg race car, I know which one i would chose for the race

XR8Master · 11-07-2007, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DK30RB

Oh wait another minute. 240kw Supercharged TRD. May not be 270kw, but it isn't bad for a first effort crack at a performance model.

Remember the days of the early Tickford XR6 (before fpv) it was only around 8-10kw more than a standard model - and was named as the performance model.

Who does 300,000km anymore. Cars are cheap enough to replace well before 300,000km.

Well, Jim Mock can tune a I6 to produce 230kw NA, which far outweighs your supercharged 240 and the typhoon can be slightly modded to produce 400kw or more...a 1000hp XR6T comes to mind...

DK30RB · 11-07-2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR8Master

Well, Jim Mock can tune a I6 to produce 230kw NA, which far outweighs your supercharged 240 and the typhoon can be slightly modded to produce 400kw or more...a 1000hp XR6T comes to mind...

All specialised models made to order. Again compare apples with apples.

Compare engines/cars that roll of the mass production line!!!

I'm sure given the expertise, time and effor that you could tune a 200kw V6 to produce 240kw.

How many 1000hp XR6T have come out of the ford factory!!!

Your argument has no relevance to the current issue of mass produced V6 -v- I6

XR8Master · 11-07-2007, 03:57 PM

well, OUT OF THE FACTORY, a I6 has more power then your camry on steroids

DK30RB · 11-07-2007, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR8Master

I just had a look at the Actual camry stats and the 200kw camry is no where near the power of the Ford I6 and anyone who thinks the camry has a better more powerfull engine is insane

Figures speak for themselves

Camry
336Nm @ 4700rpm
200kW @ 6200rpm

Ford
190kW @ 5250rpm
383Nm @ 2500rpm

If I was selecting an engine for my 900kg race car, I know which one i would chose for the race

Again - where is the relevance in mass produced cars.

Take a stock I6 falcon and line it up against a stock V6 toyota.

The toyota is quicker.... and it did it more smoothly using less fuel.

XR8Master · 11-07-2007, 04:01 PM

A XT is faster, even though there may be 100kg or less of weight difference, there is no way in the world that the Ford having 47nm more torque and also producing it 2200rpm sooner that the camry is faster, no way in the world!

DK30RB · 11-07-2007, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR8Master

well, OUT OF THE FACTORY, a I6 has more power then your camry on steroids

Stick both engines in their respective cars and which one is quicker, smoother, more fuel efficient.

I got into a manual BA with 40,000k on it the other day and the roughness, made me look to see if i was bouncing of the rev limiter, it was only doing 3500rpm. The toyota is smoother at the rev limiter than the I6 is at 3500rpm.

Try one and then honestly say that is not smoother than the I6.

uranium_death · 11-07-2007, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR8Master

I think you have stumbled up on the wrong forum, the correct address is www.Toyotaforums.com.au

That Toyotaforums suggestion was a waste of time. Contributions like DK30RB are what make this forum tick, where healthy discussion is engaged in, rather than morons posting "What personality are you?" tests in The Bar.

By people posting what they know (or posting what they appear to know), idiots like myself can learn something. So take it easy.

Black F6 · 11-07-2007, 04:07 PM

Yeah but Aurion has no balls

Give me torque anyday!!!!!

XR8Master · 11-07-2007, 04:07 PM

I have not owned a BA I6, But I have owned a BA Xr8 and the ride was multiple times better then my mums camry and every other camry ive been in, your delusional and need to go back to your fantasy world

DK30RB · 11-07-2007, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR8Master

A XT is faster, even though there may be 100kg or less of weight difference, there is no way in the world that the Ford having 47nm more torque and also producing it 2200rpm sooner that the camry is faster, no way in the world!

Aurion is quicker. There is a video on you tube (which i can't find now, it was linked from this forum in another thread) which shows an independent test of a race between a V6 Commo, Magna, Falcon Xt, and an Aurion.

Aurion takes them all out.

mcnamg · 11-07-2007, 04:10 PM

It might be worth actually considering the engine that will be replacing the I6 the 3.5L or 3.7L duratec (cyclone) is rated as one of the worlds best engines for 2007 and all reviews of vehicles with this engine fitted agree this engine is one of the best V6 engines they have driven and it is smooth.

Lets look at the commercial reality sure an I6 is torquey sounds good and has history but if we dont tow the line and make our models more exportable then ford aus itself is history. This makes it a lot easier for mustang and falcon to share components and the same V6 slots into Mustangs starting next year

**Charliewool** · 11-07-2007, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uranium_death

That Toyotaforums suggestion was a waste of time. Contributions like DK30RB are what make this forum tick, where healthy discussion is engaged in, rather than morons posting "What personality are you?" tests in The Bar.

By people posting what they know (or posting what they appear to know), idiots like myself can learn something. So take it easy.

Post of the thread so far... Well said!

XR8Master · 11-07-2007, 04:15 PM

I must appologise, if its on you tube then it must be true because after all, videos are a good representation of the truth they don't lie like factual satastics.

there is no way a ford which has DOUBLE the powerband and 49nm+ can get flogged unless there is something suss

DK30RB · 11-07-2007, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR8Master

I have not owned a BA I6, But I have owned a BA Xr8 and the ride was multiple times better then my mums camry and every other camry ive been in, your delusional and need to go back to your fantasy world

Again lets compare apples with apples.

Was your mums camry a 4cyl. How old was it?

We're talking I6 v V6 (current 4.0 I6 v 3.5V6).

If i'm delusional in knowing that a Toyota/Lexus V6 is smoother than a For I6 then i would rather live in my fantasy world.

If thats the way you want to look at it, go back to the 1960 where your I6 was at the forefront of I6 Technology....

XR8Master · 11-07-2007, 04:18 PM

Id rather just be 200m ahead of your camry like I usually am

BENT_8 · 11-07-2007, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR8Master

A XT is faster, even though there may be 100kg or less of weight difference, there is no way in the world that the Ford having 47nm more torque and also producing it 2200rpm sooner that the camry is faster, no way in the world!

All that shows is that the Toyota's sweet spot is higher in the rev band.
What it doesn't show is that the Toyota will spin up to it's higher revs much faster than the slug I6.
Anyone who has driven a N/A I6 will testify that unopened and without mods the XT Falcon is a brick to get off the line.
The Gearing also slows the Falcon takeoff too.

XR8Master · 11-07-2007, 04:22 PM

The camrys power band is 1500rpm while the Fords is 2750 while at the same time producing more power and its slower ?

Believe what you will

EgoFG · 11-07-2007, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

They were late with the EF shape compared to VR

And then the EF shap competes cosmetically with all except last years Commo.

BAFalconXT · 11-07-2007, 04:24 PM

I don't see why Ford would have invested money in turbo technology which has been so successful on the I6 and cheap way of engineering performance platforms(eg territory) just to though it out for a V6. Ford V6s in America are wowfully underpowered compared with our I6...

DK30RB · 11-07-2007, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR8Master

I must appologise, if its on you tube then it must be true because after all, videos are a good representation of the truth they don't lie like factual satastics.

there is no way a ford which has DOUBLE the powerband and 49nm+ can get flogged unless there is something suss

An engine's powerband is not the be all and end all of a cars performance. The powerband will give the car different characteristics.

Sure a falcon may get the jump on a Toyota right at the start, but it soon gets harsh at the top end, while the toyota is taking up the gap and happily revving out. There are also gearboxes and final drive ratio's to consider.

A flat 6 180kw subaru Liberty is quicker from 80 - 120 than a Porsche Boxster turbo. Yet on paper the porsche kills the liberty.

The video was hosted on you tube, but is was conducted under offical conditions for testing purposes. (It was not a home movie)

**Polyal** · 11-07-2007, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

*reviving old Orion issue*

A V6 would mean less overhang...

Oh dont get me started on that tripe again!

It does make financial sense I guess, but what does that mean for the geelong plants? Thats a massive political move!!! They would want to keep that in mind.

I dont care how good a V6 will be, why cant Ford globally adopt our I6? Its proven to be a great engine (is there a better 6 cylinder in the Ford camp anywhere?), and its made on comparatively a shoe string budget. Imagine what could happen with a bit more cash.

I dont see why they cant say change it to 3.5L, use some better materials etc if used globally. That way the plant stays, so do local jobs and if they need more engines build a plant in China.

Or perhaps this is an evil ploy to get more people to buy V8's, because I reckon every Ford nut will drop a V6 like a hot pie.

Agreed most people dont give a hoot, but the torque is a good selling point. IE- towing etc...with the baby boomers caravaning for example.

EgoFG · 11-07-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DK30RB

Cars are cheap enough to replace well before 300,000km.

Let us call this "Toyota Mentality" ... Oh wait, I did just on-sell a perfectly good 11 year old 250,000 EFII.
And for $500 More than the advertised proce of at least 1 Similar Camry

http://search.carsguide.news.com.au/...&vehicleType=3