Are FWD cars such a bad thing

[stevz]

Originally Posted by Danny

Oh?

Tell me more about the FWD STi WRX you drove. I'm dying to know, because last I heard, WRX STi's were all oh, AWD!!

Yes.. Just what I expect from the sort of unintelligent knuckle draggers who use gay jokes, racist jibes, sexist jokes, to beat their chests and prove their manliness by pedalling a misinformed opinion of a class of car that includes some ripper drives that they will miss out on because of their own backward bigotry. Some of the behaviour and comments (directed at foreigners, foreign cars and foreign car buys, as well as 4cyl cars, and FWD cars) from people frequenting this forum since Big Bobby G's big Bummy announcement are pathetic, and ridiculous, and show a real nasty culture in some of these "fans" of Ford..

Why don't you all shut up, get over it, and check this out.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=r...&v=wJZ6JB-0G5E

I've got both FWD and RWD. Love them both and will defend them to the hills. If any of the usual Neanderthals did any research they'd know the RS Megane has an LSD, beautifully weighted and feel some steering, and a chassis to die for. With the traction control set to sport or off, the thing just slingshots around corners...

Stevz, tell us about your knowledge on how all FWD cars are rubbish? I'm sure your knowledge eclipses the worldwide motoring press, or journos at Evo mag, or Autocar or (oh forget it, those mags aren't even Strayan Made)..... Your commitment to Aussie made is honourable. But please, give it a f'ing bone..

Hit a nerve did I?

If you think some obscure, overpriced French buzz box for which you could probably count the sales of in Australia on one hand is going to make me change my perception of fwd cars you are sadly mistaken. Fact of the matter is that fwd is a compromised and nasty layout which is most commonly associated with cheap and characterless appliances rather than true performance vehicles.
If these types of cars float your boat then fine, but if I was spending that type of money theres no way in hell anything fwd would make it on the list.

[Cuyper]

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

For the masses that live in suburbia and never see a country road or, god forbid, a dirt road, FWD is probably perfectly ok. There's a reason you don't see too many little buzz boxes or Magnas/Camrys out in the country away from suburbia and regional towns. That's because out here where the wildlife can quickly put a downer on your day, or a slick dirt road after a good rain can make getting from A to B a whole lot more exciting whether you like it or not, the big RWD car rules. If you hit a 7' Western Red buck, which would you prefer to be in, a small/ medium FWD or a Falcon/Commodore? If you're travelling down dusty, bumpy, sometimes corrugated, sometimes loose dirt roads what would you prefer to be in, a big RWD sedan or a FWD anything. I for one will always have a big RWD car for the above reasons plus

Mate are you sure you've driven a fwd car on dirt, you can travel at twice the speed three times safer in a fwd car on the worst gravel roads. In the same roads a big rwd car slips and slides all over the place even with no throttle, they are useless in gravel mud or snow. Ask any European that has to live in the snow most of the year.

Useless with a capital U, as for hitting kangaroos, I hit my share in large cars but have never made contact with a single one since moving to a smaller car, I just drive around them, try the same radical move in a big car I would have been wrapped around a tree many a time. Rwds are more fun if you like driving sideways but better in general driving hell no and I've lived beside a large forest full of gravel roads all my life. I don't think you've experienced how strong a modern European hatch is either they would tear a hole straight through any large car built before the last 5 years like a hot knife through butter in a head on. They are immensely strong.

Just my 2 cents worth of facts

[SPArKy_Dave]

I feel uncomfortable driving FWD vehicles.
Dunno why, just a disconcerting feeling, in they way they handle.

To me, Front wheel drive cars just not feel 'real' enough.
Not a true quintessential Aussie car.

I'm feeling so sick at the prospect of not having a proper RWD falcon platform in this country anymore.

No more true Ford/Holden rivalry.. :(


Edit -

And somehow, FWD V8 supercars, just don't do it for me.

Plus I don't think Brute Ute races between Hilux's and Navara's, would be quite the same as Falcon/Commodore.
Thus no more V8 Brute Ute races either.

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by Giant Cranium

If we are talking utes, then yes they are bad. But cars I'm not to fussed. Dads mondeo titanium is better at most things then his g6e

But the Mondeo's most powerful engine is less powerful than the Falcon's least powerful engine. FWD will be flawed in a car with power outputs like the XR6T. Whatever the replacement is, it will probably get the 3.5 litre V6 and cooking models the turbo 3.5 litre. If we're getting the US market's large car, then Ford will get their way and finally replace the Falcon with the Taurus. Which has FWD and AWD - turbo model is AWD only. The Fusion seems to be more like the Mondeo in drivetrains at least.

No Falcon, no ute. The Ranger will probably take over there.

[xyute]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Yes, strange comment. Is he talking about the BMW Mini or the original that beat the pants off every RWD in races in the 1960s?.

Except for the RWD Mk1 Lotus Cortina

[xyute]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

I agree RWD has its place but its not because of more fun or cause girls don't drive them. If you cant have tail out fun in a fwd your not trying hard enough or don't know what your doing 20 years of owning and racing a Mk1 escort coswort and suzuki swift race cars taught me that!JP

Are you implying that a Mk1 Escort Cosworth is FWD? Because that's the way your statement reads..

[xyute]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Having owned a couple of (the original) Minis I find it very hard to understand I'm afraid.

It just wouldn't work. The small RWD cars of the time were evil-handling things.

Actually having owned some small 60's - 70's RWD cars no they were not all evil-handling things...

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by xyute

Except for the RWD Mk1 Lotus Cortina

Give you that one lol

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by stevz

Hit a nerve did I?

If you think some obscure, overpriced French buzz box for which you could probably count the sales of in Australia on one hand is going to make me change my perception of fwd cars you are sadly mistaken. Fact of the matter is that fwd is a compromised and nasty layout which is most commonly associated with cheap and characterless appliances rather than true performance vehicles.

You havnt got a bloody clue. Facts eh, don't see any in the above.

[buggerlugs]

Some of the replies on here are dead set scary...............

[Danny]

Originally Posted by stevz

Hit a nerve did I?

If you think some obscure, overpriced French buzz box for which you could probably count the sales of in Australia on one hand is going to make me change my perception of fwd cars you are sadly mistaken. Fact of the matter is that fwd is a compromised and nasty layout which is most commonly associated with cheap and characterless appliances rather than true performance vehicles.
If these types of cars float your boat then fine, but if I was spending that type of money theres no way in hell anything fwd would make it on the list.

Lovely to see you clutching onto the sand that's running through your fingers because last time I heard, the 265 Megane and Focus ST and Fiesta ST were kicking ***, and your precious Aussie made falcon was the one getting culled due to an idiotic american parent offering it zero technology, resulting in a subsequent perception of being cheap and nasty. And don't talk to me about compromised layouts in performance applications. My FG Falcons are "performance" oriented, yet they sport leaf springs, and a live rear axle......

I don't begin to advocate that FWD is the best application in all cases. But in a smaller car with less weight and the right amount of power to make it quick (a la a hot hatch), its negative attributes can be all but eliminated

Sparky Dave, I see an EF in your avatar? Ever driven a good FWD car? Specifically, have you driven a focus RS, a Renaultsport Clio or Megane? Or are you basing your opinion on some Hyundai excel from the 90's or ford festiva from the 90's like the rest of the automotive engineers here?

I too was a big advocate for RWD when I was 18 and my first car was an EF Manual with LSD.. But I grew up and decided to try something new, and I am glad that I did. There is more technology in the Renault F1 tuned Front end of a Megane or Clio than in ANY falcon you could poke a stick at, /story

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by Danny

There is more technology in the Renault F1 tuned Front end of a Megane or Clio than in ANY falcon you could poke a stick at, /story

Doesn't mean it is not something that a lot of us do not prefer. It has its purposes for lightweight relatively low powered small cars.

And you comparing a Falcon ute designed to carry load and 500kg heavier than the car you are comparing it to is laughable in itself when trying to defend a particular layout is about as smart as people here questioning the masculinity of FWD drivers.

As for the fella comparing a wheezing EL to a VW GTi.... I mean that is just plain funny :-)

The RS250 is a great little thing, no doubt. And the XR5T hatch has more room in the front across the breadth than a Falcon, it feels huge in the front compared to a Falcon. And it goes like the clappers, but also does exhibit a lot of torque steer, I have no doubt the RS250 tames that trait better. And I know from our R56 Cooper S that they can be slid around a lot, really surprised me how much you can have the thing sliding through corners with the tail out.

Still, as much fun as that is, for me it doesn't compare to lighting up the rears from apex. It is also handy when that car can tow your boat without you hardly realising it is behind you, carry a family in comfort, and take on the worse of Aussie roads in comfort.

I could be wrong, but from memory does not the half a tonne heavier GT pretty much match the RS250 for lap times at many circuits? I seem to remember seeing Motor performance car of the year not that long ago at P.I. the times were close, in fact I could be wrong on memory but I do have some inkling in the grey matter that the GT might have been faster, as I do remember raising an eyebrow at the time as I would have expected the RS250 to whop it. But I do think that was at P.I. so power does come in to it, but the GT would have too much power to be using all of it through those long turns anyway with the pendulum momentum of two-ton torturing / breaking away its under-tyred footprint... Also seem to remember there not being much in it when I have seen times compared at tighter circuits like Wakefield and Winton, and those back esses at Winton are ridiculously tight bastid things. And despite carrying half a ton more and having lower spec tyres and being ridiculously under-tyred for a car with more than 400 horsepower and nudging 2-ton it still doesn't do too bad really.

[2011G6E]

I think if Ford brings in something like the FWD (AWD is available in the SHO and others of course) Taurus with it's torque vectoring control and they go for a drive in some of the more powerful versions, they'll get an uncomfortable feeling that maybe they'll start wondering what all the fuss was about...

[mcnews]

Yes major electro-mechanical interference required to try and overcome the compromised dynamics of FWD.....

[tranquilized]

I was driving out in the country in my XC Falcon 500 3.3lt 3-on-the-tree the other day, and just couldn't seem to keep up with some guy in one of those new Focus' ST. Straights and corners, just couldn't seem to keep up.

From this experience I conclude that FWD is clearly the superior drive train configuration.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

I was driving out in the country in my XC Falcon 500 3.3lt 3-on-the-tree the other day, and just couldn't seem to keep up with some guy in one of those new Focus' ST. Straights and corners, just couldn't seem to keep up.

From this experience I conclude that FWD is clearly the superior drive train configuration.

Or that you are just a really bad driver..........

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

I was driving out in the country in my XC Falcon 500 3.3lt 3-on-the-tree the other day, and just couldn't seem to keep up with some guy in one of those new Focus' ST. Straights and corners, just couldn't seem to keep up.

From this experience I conclude that FWD is clearly the superior drive train configuration.

I can't think of a long wheel base FWD 'performance' car.....DS19 etc were great 'cruising' cars however. SWB FWD however are very pointy and great fun....seriously!
If you haven't tried it, then its just blah blah blah.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Yes major electro-mechanical interference required to try and overcome the compromised dynamics of FWD.....

You mean as opposed to the major electro-mechanical interference require to try and overcome the extreamly low driving ability of most car enthusiasts in RWD vehicles.

e.g.

Automatic transmission with "pretend" manual capability.
Power steering.
ABS
DSC
Traction control
Chassis gemoetry specifically designed to induce understeer long before oversteer
Torque limiters in lower gears
RPM limiters with "soft" cutting.

The best place to see this in action is on a skid pan. Any idiot can pedal a FWD car around a wet circuit without loss of control whereas almost every RWD hero constantly muffs the corners until they turn off the "idiot proofing" after which they immediately throw it off the pan backwards.

[ryeman]

The vast majority of the public care more about packaging efficiency in a car compact enough to not have nightmares about getting into tight underground car parks, affordable, efficient, cutting edge toys with min OAL ie 4 metres rather than 5.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Yes major electro-mechanical interference required to try and overcome the compromised dynamics of FWD.....

Or, do as Ford/Holden have done with their RWDs, add a tonne of weight.

RWD is a great layout in a light, well-balanced car. Its hardly a revelation in a barge.

[ryeman]

To me 'light' is old world <1000KG....maybe the v old legendary rally car..the Datsun 1600....none of them exist any more.
Light is now 1500KG it seems, the price of safety.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by ryeman

I can't think of a long wheel base FWD 'performance' car.....DS19 etc were great 'cruising' cars however. SWB FWD however are very pointy and great fun....seriously!
If you haven't tried it, then its just blah blah blah.

I know I know, I've spent a lot of time in a Focus XR5 - love it! I dont have a problem with FWD, my post was just a dig at some of the ridiculous, completely irrelevant comparisons some people are making to justify their own opinion.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by b0son

Or, do as Ford/Holden have done with their RWDs, add a tonne of weight.

RWD is a great layout in a light, well-balanced car. Its hardly a revelation in a barge.

They have spent millions trying to lighten them, they don't add weight.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by xyute

Are you implying that a Mk1 Escort Cosworth is FWD? Because that's the way your statement reads..

No mate just illustrating an experience of both types of cars in a high performance conditions to support the claim. Something many commentators here have not got

JP

[Danny]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Yes major electro-mechanical interference required to try and overcome the compromised dynamics of FWD.....

For what it's worth, the RS Megane has a trick hub set up with an old fashioned mechanical LSD. No electronic rubbish like a GTI

Originally Posted by mcnews

Doesn't mean it is not something that a lot of us do not prefer. It has its purposes for lightweight relatively low powered small cars.

And you comparing a Falcon ute designed to carry load and 500kg heavier than the car you are comparing it to is laughable in itself when trying to defend a particular layout is about as smart as people here questioning the masculinity of FWD drivers.

As for the fella comparing a wheezing EL to a VW GTi.... I mean that is just plain funny :-)

The RS250 is a great little thing, no doubt. And the XR5T hatch has more room in the front across the breadth than a Falcon, it feels huge in the front compared to a Falcon. And it goes like the clappers, but also does exhibit a lot of torque steer, I have no doubt the RS250 tames that trait better. And I know from our R56 Cooper S that they can be slid around a lot, really surprised me how much you can have the thing sliding through corners with the tail out.

Still, as much fun as that is, for me it doesn't compare to lighting up the rears from apex. It is also handy when that car can tow your boat without you hardly realising it is behind you, carry a family in comfort, and take on the worse of Aussie roads in comfort.

I could be wrong, but from memory does not the half a tonne heavier GT pretty much match the RS250 for lap times at many circuits? I seem to remember seeing Motor performance car of the year not that long ago at P.I. the times were close, in fact I could be wrong on memory but I do have some inkling in the grey matter that the GT might have been faster, as I do remember raising an eyebrow at the time as I would have expected the RS250 to whop it. But I do think that was at P.I. so power does come in to it, but the GT would have too much power to be using all of it through those long turns anyway with the pendulum momentum of two-ton torturing / breaking away its under-tyred footprint... Also seem to remember there not being much in it when I have seen times compared at tighter circuits like Wakefield and Winton, and those back esses at Winton are ridiculously tight bastid things. And despite carrying half a ton more and having lower spec tyres and being ridiculously under-tyred for a car with more than 400 horsepower and nudging 2-ton it still doesn't do too bad really.

Thanks for your intelligent take on the situation. But I'll clarify the point I was making with the ute. It wasn't stupid, and I was not comparing it at all to the RS.

What I was simply trying to put forward to these 'professionals' an Their cries of "compromised and flawed set ups" is that a leaf sprung rear end with a live axle is also a compromise in applications like an xr6T or an F6 310. Try to flatten the loud pedal in either and it immediately becomes clear. I or you cannot deny that.
But the Falcon carries a load?? Yeah, so does a commodore SS or a Maloo, a similar load, with IRS and better powerdown without the jitteriness. I'm not complaining though, because I do enjoy the sideways action, it is however not composed.

Haven't really done much research into RS v. The GT because that comparison is irrelevant. They're two different cars and I am not shooting you down for owning one, all the power to you. Besides, a GT has what an extra 40-50kW/ton over a Megane? it would have it balls wise. It's a dirty stinking V8.

Also, did I compare a GTI to an EF? Don't remember it... I remember saying I had one as my first car because RWD was all I would have before opening my eyes to what other stuff was out there. I would never compare anything to a Manual EF with an LSD.. There's no point because EF's are like VN Commodores. They're the sickest cars in the world and pull all the chicks. None can deny that.

[jpblue1000]

For those complaining FWD cant handle dirt have a look at the Australian Rally championship 2wd class, seems to me the honda jazz outperforms the Mazda RX7, s15 Silvia, Commodore and Aston martin by as much as 4 minutes on some 22 minute stages.
Food for thought...Perhaps your poor experience of FWD on dirt was down to your ability rather than the cars
JP

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by Danny

But the Falcon carries a load?? Yeah, so does a commodore SS or a Maloo, a similar load, with IRS and better powerdown without the jitteriness. I'm not complaining though, because I do enjoy the sideways action, it is however not composed..

You do know that only the utes have the live rear axle....? That is why they carry a load better, tow better and do not scrub the inside of the rears out when towing or carrying a load unlike the IRS Commodore utes.

[mik]

I'll probably get flamed here, but I dont mind leaf spring s, in daily duties, long leafed springs ride nicely, rolls royce used greased leather wrapped leaf spring s for many many years, no not grouse for nascar handling but almost maintenance free ang good riding.

[Trump]

I'll ask the following question:

How do you reckon all these FWD hot hatches would fare if they were RWD?

[jpblue1000]

And that's the crux of this whole argument, no one configuration works the best for all situations, yet all configurations exist in large numbers today for various reasons. To dismiss one because of personal Bias is just ignorant.

JP